[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's for you at $4.60/gal. and charging at home. My discussion was using a much lower price for fuel for a the average customer in the US auto market who will only use the public network to charge his EV. So your point is not apples to apples as a counter to what I am discussing. In my rough calculation I didn't even include the cost of electrons for the Tesla on the Tesla network, which I think is around $0.22 per kW.

That's exactly the point I'm making. You cannot make a blanket statement with averages across the entire country to say that EV doesn't make sense. EV's work for some people, in some locations. They don't work for some people, in other locations. It's all relative. Speaking in absolutes across the entire country is pointless. Hence why we currently allow states a say in the matter. These issues are localized, not generalized across the country.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You would need to define luxury in this case. If by luxury you just mean physical stuff, like trims, buttons, panels etc then yes. If by luxury you mean the quality of the materials that are there and actual features (heated seats, cooled, cameras etc) then I think the Model 3 is on par with a 3 series or C class easily. Especially the new Model 3.

It is not lol.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

That's exactly the point I'm making. You cannot make a blanket statement with averages across the entire country to say that EV doesn't make sense. EV's work for some people, in some locations. They don't work for some people, in other locations. It's all relative. Speaking in absolutes across the entire country is pointless. Hence why we currently allow states a say in the matter. These issues are localized, not generalized across the country.

Well, with that position then, nothing is able to be discussed. Marketing arms of the manufacturers then really can make any determination of the market and the viability or prediction of EV or ICE sales. Of course sales of certain vehicle types are somewhat location dependent. But EV gestation was driven by and is continued to be supported by Federal legislation, which is nationwide. So, I think using the national average for fuel cost as a basis of my argument is completely justified.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It is not lol.

How would you know? Don’t you explode if you get to close to an EV??

[Alfisti]

Some size as a Camry?? Really? I've been in both and the Camry feels MUCH larger, like 5 series size not 3 series.

I'm also not sold the 3 goes up against a 3 series or C class, the refinement isn't there. This is tricky, if you go down a notch the ICE lack power.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Some size as a Camry?? Really? I've been in both and the Camry feels MUCH larger, like 5 series size not 3 series.

I'm also not sold the 3 goes up against a 3 series or C class, the refinement isn't there. This is tricky, if you go down a notch the ICE lack power.

You all keep talking about more luxury and more refined but no one has been able to define that.

It’s like saying a modern minimalist designed house is less luxurious than a super guady home decked out with gold toilets and ornate hardware etc.

I don’t follow BMWs much anymore, but I’m pretty sure the quality of materials in a base 3 series is no better than what’s in a model 3. Hell the materials in my Cayenne were no better than a 3 series or model 3 except maybe real leather… even that was meh.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by dfox

That's exactly the point I'm making. You cannot make a blanket statement with averages across the entire country to say that EV doesn't make sense. EV's work for some people, in some locations. They don't work for some people, in other locations. It's all relative. Speaking in absolutes across the entire country is pointless. Hence why we currently allow states a say in the matter. These issues are localized, not generalized across the country.

It is no use trying to talk sense to people who have no clue becuse they have no real world experience with EV's....or what it is like to spend $80 every time you fill up on gas like the millions of drivers do daily ... Those people just don't get it and never will

Comparing Tesla's to Camry's is also silly...My Model 3 is warmed up with a touch of a button on my phone and is nice a comfy by the time you get to your car on a cold winter night or cooled down for you on a hot summer day..and no, remote start is not the same thing...it will also come pick me up if I'm feeling lazy.....No Camry, nor pretty much every ICE V, does any thing close to any of those things and is slow AF.... not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle...wake up every morning with a full tank without ever having to visit a gas station for pennies on the dollar....

Yeah, I can see why people who don't have EV's hate EV's

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

It is no use trying to talk sense to people who have no clue becuse they have no real world experience with EV's....or what it is like to spend $80 every time you fill up on gas like the millions of drivers do daily ... Those people just don't get it and never will

Comparing Tesla's to Camry's is also silly...My Model 3 is warmed up with a touch of a button on my phone and is nice a comfy by the time you get to your car on a cold winter night or cooled down for you on a hot summer day..and no, remote start is not the same thing...it will also come pick me up if I'm feeling lazy.....No Camry, nor pretty much every ICE V, does any thing close to any of those things and is slow AF.... not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle...wake up every morning with a full tank without ever having to visit a gas station for pennies on the dollar....

Yeah, I can see why people who don't have EV's hate EV's

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

It's hard because everyone here already knows that. I have not seen a single pro EV person here claim everyone should buy an EV including people who live in an apartment or people who need to save as much money as possible and drive the most economical vehicle etc. Not everyone can afford a BMW, not everyone wants the impracticality of a 2-seater sports car, not everyone has a need for an F350, not everyone wants to drive a manual... doesn't make those vehicles inherently bad.

No one here is making the argument that everyone should have an EV for everything. You refuse to understand that though.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

It’s literally just about pointless to have an EV unless you can home charge. I am smack dab in the middle of 2 major cities (40 minutes from each) and the closest fast chargers are still 25 miles each way.

I had to basically make due and drive to one of these locations every 2 days or so before my home charger was put in a month after I got my i7. It was a major PIA.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

It's hard because everyone here already knows that. I have not seen a single pro EV person here claim everyone should buy an EV including people who live in an apartment or people who need to save as much money as possible and drive the most economical vehicle etc. Not everyone can afford a BMW, not everyone wants the impracticality of a 2-seater sports car, not everyone has a need for an F350, not everyone wants to drive a manual... doesn't make those vehicles inherently bad.

No one here is making the argument that everyone should have an EV for everything. You refuse to understand that though.

Nope, I'm just trying to explain why the majority of the market is not going to buy an EV and why they yet haven't.

And my discussion is not about vehicle type (i.e. configuration), but rather the type of propulsion technology.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

l. not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle

EVs have a ton of maintenance too. They eat tires like 3-4x faster than a typical ICE car. They tear up suspension components. They still have HVAC systems to go bad. They still have cooling systems to go bad. Some of them that aren't fisher price cars still have differentials that need upkeep. They still have brake pads and rotors that need replaced. They still have ball joints and bushings that go bad.

If your state has taxes your fuel to the point that has is uneconomical, that's once thing, but reality is there are more places where it is not more economical than places where it is.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by mjr24

It’s literally just about pointless to have an EV unless you can home charge. I am smack dab in the middle of 2 major cities (40 minutes from each) and the closest fast chargers are still 25 miles each way.

I had to basically make due and drive to one of these locations every 2 days or so before my home charger was put in a month after I got my i7. It was a major PIA.

Out of curiosity, how much did it cost to install the charger at your home?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

It is no use trying to talk sense to people who have no clue becuse they have no real world experience with EV's....or what it is like to spend $80 every time you fill up on gas like the millions of drivers do daily ... Those people just don't get it and never will

Comparing Tesla's to Camry's is also silly...My Model 3 is warmed up with a touch of a button on my phone and is nice a comfy by the time you get to your car on a cold winter night or cooled down for you on a hot summer day..and no, remote start is not the same thing...it will also come pick me up if I'm feeling lazy.....No Camry, nor pretty much every ICE V, does any thing close to any of those things and is slow AF.... not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle...wake up every morning with a full tank without ever having to visit a gas station for pennies on the dollar....

Yeah, I can see why people who don't have EV's hate EV's

I still don't buy this idea that unless one has real world experience owning an EV they don't "get" the idea of EV. What is not to understand? One either plugs in at home to charge the car when it is parked and gets near the max range of the battery, or they charge the car on the public network and follow the protocol of good charging manners and only charge to 80% battery capacity to not hog the charger to get the last 20% at the much slower part of the charge curve. The math is not difficult to process as to the wait times of charging using the public network, or most manufacturers state the max rate of recovery in the terms of miles and minutes. One can use such metrics to determine if an EV will fit their use case.

With either ICEV or EV, each technology has an easily known recharge rate and fuel load range. The issue with EV that make them more difficult to use is the range and recharge rate are significantly affected depending on ambient temperature, wind speed, road speed, and desired cabin temperature. ICEV really don't have significant impacts to range based on ambient temperature and nearly zero impact on recharge rate based on ambient temperature. The internet tries to make a case that ICEV experience near the same rate of range degradation as EV do, but it is BS. Granted in extreme cases of environmental conditions ICEV can have near 30% degradation of efficiency, yet EV are affected more so, but ICEV still can be recharged to its full fuel load in 5 minutes. These are all data that are available on the internet from reputable sources that test such parameters.

You keep pointing out that people like me who do a deep analysis of EV ownership before they buy one are EV haters if they post in an internet forum their findings. I've been looking at adopting the EV architecture since 2013 (first at the Model S) when I had a daily 170-mile round-trip commute. I've looked at nearly every EV since and test drove several or been in a few as a passenger. I always look at any car purchase from a lifecycle economic standpoint, I've not yet found one that offers a significant lifecycle cost savings that would justify the lifestyle change (from ICEV) needed to adjust to the recharge and range attributes of EV. I still see range and recharge requirements (across a four-seasons use case) as a roadblock to adoption of the technology. I think most of the market sees it the same way.

My deep dive into understanding the EV ownership experience comes from reviewing the information from real owners of the Mustang Mach E forum. Leaving out the complaints of questionable quality issues of the Mach E and just focusing on the range and recharging on the public network, it appears to be a complete PITA. One needs several different navigation apps, charge network apps, and hand calculations for remaining range based on battery SOC. Fine for people who like to use apps and "tech" and constantly recalc range estimates, but I'm not one of those people; I just like to drive simply for the pleasure of it. With ICEV I don't need to do any of that shit. Anywhere I go there is a gas station. I can pay with cash or card. It works at 99.999% flawlessness. I see no reason to change. I think the market see it that way too.