[QUiKSR20]

What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...

[IllSic_Design]

Not that they can't, they just didn't want to, not economically smart on their part. The LFA was an engineering/design challenge.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...

Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.

I think a friendly version of corporate espionage is afoot here. Toyota has torn down every bit of that Z4, parts and engine soup to nuts. I predict in the next couple of years, you'll see something similar in Lexus as far as sportiness.

I understand your point on the whoring out of the legendary halo car, but I give credit for swallowing ones pride, admitting that you can't do it anymore, and seeking out help and education from a master. Going to BMW, the company they've mimicked for 20 years now, must have been humbling, but the long term benefits will reap rewards. Most true BMW guys won't buy this car, but we aren't the market either. Young, aspiring Toyota owners are the target, so if they can steal some sales from the BMW 2 or 3 series, mission would be accomplished.

The other issue is drivers like me; I'm now electric and am wavering on ever going back full time. (own an older 911 for Saturdays and track days). However, driving the Supra on the weekends and when the kids aren't a factor would be very fun.

[stormhammer]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.

Wat.

Gazoo Racing is Toyota's brand.

The won Le Man's last year, and did fantastic in the WRC with a freaking boosted Yaris.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by stormhammer

Wat.

Gazoo Racing is Toyota's brand.

The won Le Man's last year, and did fantastic in the WRC with a freaking boosted Yaris.

Gazoo? Guess I'm out of the loop. WEC does have a Toyota in one of the classes. Thought it was Toyota Hybrid.

At any rate, the racing heritage isn't strong like say, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, even Mitsubishi in rally.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Nextbooost

Hilarious thing is mkiv owners and previous owners are in life positions now that a 60k to 100k proper Supra would be a sure buy. With in the next 5 years ill be Lexus LC or new M4 for me. A 80k Supra(ft1) would have been a must buy.

Not only do I support a more "modest" Supra that is priced significantly lower than an M2, rather than a Supra priced in M4 territory... But I think it's the smarter move for something badged as a Toyota. I also argue this new one is priced more similarly to the last generation than a $80k Supra would be.

EDIT: I need to retract my last point regarding relative pricing. While a 1995 Supra $38k Base Liftback is $49k in today's money; the $49k Turbo Liftback works out to $80k in today's money. Interesting.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...

Let's be fair here, if the claim is Toyota cannot alone afford to build the Supra, then you can say the same that BMW cannot alone afford to build the Z4. It goes both ways and it looks like this joint venture was Toyota provided the investment money and BMW did the work.

I do agree though that Toyota has committed blasphemy in commissioning BMW to build a car as iconic as the Supra on their behalf. It's sacrilegious, sinful, and if I was a Toyota enthusiast and fanatic, I would be very disappointed at this BMW Supra.

[beattiecj]

I'm mixed on the Supra hyped for years similar to the NSX.

Here is a good article detailing the differences between the z4, 3 series and the Supra.

https://jalopnik.com/what-we-found-w...sup-1831800550

[MarkDemma]

Well, they must have done something to please some people that aren't folks that hang out on car forums all day. Appears that the entire years allotment is all but sold out already.

[pukicabuki]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

At any rate, the racing heritage isn't strong like say, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, even Mitsubishi in rally.

Might want to read up on your history a little more. Toyota (4) has as many WRC constructors championships as Subaru (3) and Mitsubishi (1) combined.

If you're looking at driver's championships then Toyota has 4 compared to Subaru's 3 and Mitsubishi's 4. 2 of Subaru's came after Toyota's departure from the series.

However you choose to look at it, Toyota has been the most successful Japanese manufacturer in WRC.

Nissan has seen success in touring car and GT racing but has very rarely strayed from that realm.

Honda's racing heritage, aside from motorcycles, lies largely in open wheel (F1, Indy) racing.

Toyota is one of the few manufacturers that has dared to throw their hat in the ring across a large number of racing formats. They've certainly taken a step back from the well know racing series over the last decade but making silly claims regarding their lack of racing heitage and claiming "NASCAR doesn't count" just makes you sound ignorant. They were pretty dominant across a large portion of the racing world in the 80s and 90s.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by pukicabuki

Might want to read up on your history a little more. Toyota (4) has as many WRC constructors championships as Subaru (3) and Mitsubishi (1) combined.

If you're looking at driver's championships then Toyota has 4 compared to Subaru's 3 and Mitsubishi's 4. 2 of Subaru's came after Toyota's departure from the series.

However you choose to look at it, Toyota has been the most successful Japanese manufacturer in WRC.

Nissan has seen success in touring car and GT racing but has very rarely strayed from that realm.

Honda's racing heritage, aside from motorcycles, lies largely in open wheel (F1, Indy) racing.

Toyota is one of the few manufacturers that has dared to throw their hat in the ring across a large number of racing formats. They've certainly taken a step back from the well know racing series over the last decade but making silly claims regarding their lack of racing heitage and claiming "NASCAR doesn't count" just makes you sound ignorant. They were pretty dominant across a large portion of the racing world in the 80s and 90s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_in_motorsport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota...rmula_One_team)

[Powaup]

The air vents can actually be functional "The holes are there to be used" LOLOL

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ts-functional/

Originally Posted by MarkDemma

You forgot that Toyota added much in the way of fake air vent technology.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Not only do I support a more "modest" Supra that is priced significantly lower than an M2, rather than a Supra priced in M4 territory... But I think it's the smarter move for something badged as a Toyota. I also argue this new one is priced more similarly to the last generation than a $80k Supra would be.

EDIT: I need to retract my last point regarding relative pricing. While a 1995 Supra $38k Base Liftback is $49k in today's money; the $49k Turbo Liftback works out to $80k in today's money. Interesting.

Well, your point is still a good one vs market. The sports car market is tiny compared to 20 years ago also.

I guess people were expecting the new Supra to me more of a Skyline GTR. Even Nissan admits that Godzilla is a hard car to keep developing for the small number sold globally.

I'm not sure what else the Supra could have been. A more Toyota/Lexus interior? A more Lexus feel to the ride? Even though they've proven that outside of the LFA have struggled to design a sporty suspension. The turbo has finally been embraced, and then there is the issue of engine design.

Developing an engine costs billions. In the case of a bespoke engine for a Supra, those billions couldn't be recovered since it wouldn't go into other vehicles across the family lines. To their defense, Toyota is working on electric motors and battery tech in R&D, so an engine for a sports car was likely far from their minds, thus this mashup.

I don't know, does seem weird that Toyota hardly touched the car under the hood. Guess they know that their fans really want a BMW.

[bimmer456]

The fact this is a BMW opens the door to countless after market tuning options. Toyota should partner with an aftermarket flash tuning organization to produce a factory sanctioned TRD app that flashes the engine using a mobile app through ODB. A cheap flash tune for instant horsepower gain that doesn't void warranty would be a huge hit with the tuner community and give this car a massive advantage over the competition. Allow the end user to customize the car to their liking by coding on or off any option they like, etc.

[Robotechnology]

I don’t have a problem with the looks or the specs. I like it. I do have a problem with the gall and sheer nerve Toyota has to call this car a Supra and not offer it in manual. Don’t care if they’re talking about possibly adding it in the future. Should NEVER have been engineered without a manual in mind from the outset. This is such an epic fail!

[Happy Jose]

The Supra Dupra is hideous! And why didn't Toyota develope the engine for it? And why do I need it? It offers very little beyond what I already have.

What I do need is a nice '14 or '15 Audi R8 V8!

[stormhammer]

Originally Posted by Robotechnology

I don’t have a problem with the looks or the specs. I like it. I do have a problem with the gall and sheer nerve Toyota has to call this car a Supra and not offer it in manual. Don’t care if they’re talking about possibly adding it in the future. Should NEVER have been engineered without a manual in mind from the outset. This is such an epic fail!

That's where the business side of things comes into place, be it fortunate or unfortunate.

On average, more people buy auto's than manuals ( Surprisingly, the BRZ/FRS/86 has been a 50/50 split ). Sports cars are an ever-shrinking segment. Even looking at M cars, I can find far more M3/M4's in DCT than I can in a manual, and it makes sense - not many people want to drive a manual in an hour worth of traffic, and not many people have the space or the means to own both a daily driver AND a sports car for the weekend.

Then you have the issue of, if you offer the manual in a Supra, even in the 4 cylinder, you effectively kill off the 86. Now, price/target demographic factor in and blah blah blah, but that's basically what it breaks down to. It's why for the longest time the Camaro couldn't get options that would make it be able to compete with the Corvette.

I can only imagine that Tada, the chief engineer on both the 86 and now the Supra, is torn inside about how he couldn't offer it in a manual ( although supposedly that's changing )

That being said - ZF 8spd's are an amazing automatic transmission. I can't wait to see big boost put on these, at 3392lbs, with 600whp and 600+tq, there will be a gaptism of rain and fire.

[desertman123]

Originally Posted by swunder

Why can't toyota/lexus make their own interior and engine? Why can't it have a stick shift?

Making their own new engine would probably price the car out of existence. It's relatively low volume.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by swunder

Exactly, and its fair they/we would go nuts.

Listen, I don't know anything about the supra heritage or community or hardcore fan base but it seems obvious this 'Supra' has NOTHING to do with it. Even if its a great car it should have a different name.

Why can't toyota/lexus make their own interior and engine? Why can't it have a stick shift? Old M guys still get to have one in the m2/3/4. What about old Toyota guys?

Toyota and BMW are just abusing the Supra name to fund a lame partnership selling a cheaper Z4. I am totally missing the point of this car.

The dashboard is the most expensive part of the car to design.

[NCThreePedals]

I don't love it, not enough to pay $900 a month for it at least
My m4 is better in every way shape or form so it would be a downgrade. The booty is nice, the front end makes me cringe

May look better in person but meh. I can see why it's appealing to some though and I respect that

[bimmer456]

Someone do an S55 engine swap.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

I think a friendly version of corporate espionage is afoot here. Toyota has torn down every bit of that Z4, parts and engine soup to nuts. I predict in the next couple of years, you'll see something similar in Lexus as far as sportiness.

Not sure about espionage, This is a joint project the car is made by BMW and stamped that on the VIN tag in the door. BMW Built the car and Toyota designed the outer body design.

Jason Cammisa posted a pic earlier in the week