[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

I don't have a problem with forcing manufacturers or consumers to pay for the processing or recycling. I think we will find that similar to building the first EV batteries, the cost will go down significantly with efficiencies/scale as time goes on. I also believe if they were forced to recycle/reuse the battery at the end of life they would do things to make it simpler when building the battery. They would also find ways to repair damaged batteries to delay the recycle cost.

While we are sticking the recycle cost on the EV, we should add a cost to all other major purchases for the parts that are difficult to recycle and force the industry to deal with them. TV's, computers, phones, car parts that aren't recycled, probably a long list.

One thing I have heard as a good suggestion is reusing the battery as a stationary power storage device. Your EV battery still has 40-50% of its capacity or the car is totaled, the battery gets put in a house to be used when the power goes out or as storage when you produce more solar than you are currently using. Doesn't get rid of the ultimate problem of eventual disposal but uses up more of the battery potential before it is done.

It's an interesting topic from the perspective of 2nd tier ownership. The problem I see is the original new car buyer pays the bill for recycling the battery. That should be added into the total cost of ownership calculation, making the picture even worse for the potential EV fuel savings cost benefit. If the price for battery recycling is $6,750, that buys about 65,000 miles of gasoline (at current prices). Passing the $6.7K recycling cost on to the next (used car) buyer then makes the cost of purchase difficult to justify. It's literally a hot potato issue.

This is another check in the plus column for ICE. Auto recyclers pay for junk cars to recycle parts and then the raw materials, which are easily separated metals and plastics, because the value of the recycled materials is more than the processing cost.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Ever get the idea everyone else knows the definitions of words and uses them correctly in a sentence or paragraph to convey thoughts accurately and you don't?

No, sorry, can’t relate

[Car-Addicted]

2018: I couldn't find more recent numbers.
80 Percent of EVs are Leased, Not Bought
EV values drop like a rock after three years. That makes them great buys on the used-car market, especially if the automaker warrants the battery at least five more years.
For contrarians and possible risk-takers, there's a strong argument in favor of buying EVs used. At three years of age, some sell for as little as 25 percent of their initial price and there are fewer wear parts, other than the battery. Most combustion-engine cars retain 35-55 percent of their value at three years of life.

I think this is a big issue. Once you start down the lease road it's hard to get back to purchasing a car as the down payment can be prohibitive. We all remember what it took to buy our first house.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fcman

No, sorry, can’t relate

It was a rhetorical question...

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It was a rhetorical question...

Oh my bad, I thought you were having a moment of clarity and self awareness

[M5Rick]

What may happen when EB's are charged in your home
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=el...id:3EuO0ydJfgs

[M5Rick]

Another case of an EV catching fire while charging outside destroying a truck and another EV beside it.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=el...id:nsBgDXHVorE

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fcman

Oh my bad, I thought you were having a moment of clarity and self awareness

Precisely. Your misunderstanding definitions of words leads to such errors. Things you think are wrong, aren't. You've talked yourself now in a full circle, you must be dizzy.

[KRS_SN]

I'm just back from a 800 mile round trip from Glasgow to the Pembrokeshire forests in wales part of the journey which involves 3.5 hrs of drive through the forests with very few/ no fast charger in sight. So to and fro of that leg of the journey is 7hrs!

I had to take the EV as my other car the ice is sold and I'm awaiting the delivery of the new ice car and the trip couldn't wait.

Journey in the EV has easily added an extra 4 hours to the 14 hour drive time in charging or looking for a charger. A side order of plenty of fast food while waiting for the car to charge and charging anxiety etc. Cost of the trip is the same if not higher than using an equivalent ice car.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Precisely. Your misunderstanding definitions of words leads to such errors. Things you think are wrong, aren't. You've talked yourself now in a full circle, you must be dizzy.

Today I learned the earth is actually flat

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by fcman

Today I learned the earth is actually flat

Once that was "Settled Science" Keep reading and maybe someday you will catch up.

[Car-Addicted]

Things that make you go Hmmmm...
Interim Guidance for Electric and Hybrid-Electric Vehicles
Equipped With High-Voltage Batteries

NOTE: If the fire involves a lithium-ion battery, it will require large, sustained volumes of
water for extinguishment. Consider defensive tactics and allow fire to burn out.
• If there is active fire, follow local standard operating procedures (SOPs) for vehicle
fires. Wear appropriate Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and Self Contained
Breathing Apparatus (SCBA).
• If occupants are still inside the vehicle or trapped, a fire extinguisher may be used
to protect the occupants until a hose line is available or the occupants are removed.
Consider establishing a water supply to support long-term operation.
• Use a hose line to apply water to extinguish the fire while continuing to cool the HV
battery and its casing. Never attempt to penetrate the HV battery or its casing to
apply water.
• Avoid contact with orange high-voltage cabling and areas identified as high-voltage
risk by warning labels.
• Be alert. There is a potential for delayed ignition or re-ignition of a lithium-ion battery
fire even after it is believed to be extinguished. This may remain an issue until the
lithium-ion battery is properly discharged.
• As with any vehicle fire, the byproducts of combustion can be toxic and all individuals
should be directed to move to a safe distance upwind and uphill from the vehicle fire
and out of the way of oncoming traffic.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.go...iredept-v2.pdf

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Once that was "Settled Science" Keep reading and maybe someday you will catch up.

I figured I would try to come down to your level to try to understand your arguments. Next stop: invention of the wheel

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Things that make you go Hmmmm...
Interim Guidance for Electric and Hybrid-Electric Vehicles
Equipped With High-Voltage Batteries

NOTE: If the fire involves a lithium-ion battery, it will require large, sustained volumes of
water for extinguishment. Consider defensive tactics and allow fire to burn out.
• If there is active fire, follow local standard operating procedures (SOPs) for vehicle
fires. Wear appropriate Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and Self Contained
Breathing Apparatus (SCBA).
• If occupants are still inside the vehicle or trapped, a fire extinguisher may be used
to protect the occupants until a hose line is available or the occupants are removed.
Consider establishing a water supply to support long-term operation.
• Use a hose line to apply water to extinguish the fire while continuing to cool the HV
battery and its casing. Never attempt to penetrate the HV battery or its casing to
apply water.
• Avoid contact with orange high-voltage cabling and areas identified as high-voltage
risk by warning labels.
• Be alert. There is a potential for delayed ignition or re-ignition of a lithium-ion battery
fire even after it is believed to be extinguished. This may remain an issue until the
lithium-ion battery is properly discharged.
• As with any vehicle fire, the byproducts of combustion can be toxic and all individuals
should be directed to move to a safe distance upwind and uphill from the vehicle fire
and out of the way of oncoming traffic.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.go...iredept-v2.pdf

Even breathing in the toxic fumes before getting clear for a short while can have health implications later on.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I'm just back from a 800 mile round trip from Glasgow to the Pembrokeshire forests in wales part of the journey which involves 3.5 hrs of drive through the forests with very few/ no fast charger in sight. So to and fro of that leg of the journey is 7hrs!

I had to take the EV as my other car the ice is sold and I'm awaiting the delivery of the new ice car and the trip couldn't wait.

Journey in the EV has easily added an extra 4 hours to the 14 hour drive time in charging or looking for a charger. A side order of plenty of fast food while waiting for the car to charge and charging anxiety etc. Cost of the trip is the same if not higher than using an equivalent ice car.

god it must suck to live outside the US....

I just did similar 900 mile round trip to Santa Cruz for my sons graduation in our Tesla...zero range anxiety as there are plenty of charging stations to choose from and only had to stop for twice charging which took about 22 minutes tops...just enough time to grab a Starbucks or McDonalds breakfast ...spent a total of $56 in charging for almost 900 mile round trip and the added time was minimal when you time it with eating or stretching the legs. The horrors of road trips in an EV are extremely exagerated, at least in the US

[David70]

The never ending discussion on fires is a strange one to me. Yet to see any statistics or data that shows I have a reason to fear any vehicle fire. I've also never known someone that a vehicle fire caused an injury or death.

Here's some data - There were 39,508 fatal motor vehicle crashes in the United States in 2021 in which 42,939 deaths occurred.

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality...state-by-state

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

god it must suck to live outside the US....

I just did similar 900 mile round trip to Santa Cruz for my sons graduation in our Tesla...zero range anxiety as there are plenty of charging stations to choose from and only had to stop for twice charging which took about 22 minutes tops...just enough time to grab a Starbucks or McDonalds breakfast ...spent a total of $56 in charging for almost 900 mile round trip and the added time was minimal when you time it with eating or stretching the legs. The horrors of road trips in an EV are extremely exagerated, at least in the US

I get your point and it is exactly why its not good for a majority/global application.
A trip from Glasgow to London and back would be easy as a 800 mile trip as there are plenty of chargers enroute some 350kw ie better than Tesla
BUT when you go off the beaten road for nearly 7 hours Teslas or EV's as I alluded to earlier and am posting now are useless..
I'll attach the trip details from the tesla website nil are fast chargers for the 7hour leg and the IX stats just for comparison.

[gblansten]

I’m spending the week in Vail and my Tesla is plugged in at home and sitting in my garage. What are the odds my house burns down?

[KRS_SN]

Hope I'm not spamming you lot but my 11 year old daughter asked. Can we drive to the arctic to see the polar bears dad..I couldn't resist saying..no .. not in this car ... there are no ev chargers down there kid...
I took the 12 and 11 year old kids on the road trip. Its safe to say they'd chuck an egg at the greta gang as they know the reality of road travel.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

god it must suck to live outside the US....

I just did similar 900 mile round trip to Santa Cruz for my sons graduation in our Tesla...zero range anxiety as there are plenty of charging stations to choose from and only had to stop for twice charging which took about 22 minutes tops...just enough time to grab a Starbucks or McDonalds breakfast ...spent a total of $56 in charging for almost 900 mile round trip and the added time was minimal when you time it with eating or stretching the legs. The horrors of road trips in an EV are extremely exagerated, at least in the US

Where as Rich Benoit documented his trip from NJ to GA and how at certain points on his trip, he had to to scramble to find a charger and the various issues he had with charging his Rivian. He also spent more than $56 for the one charging station he used. And Rich isn't anti EV. Heck he has two repair shops that do EV repairs.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Where as Rich Benoit documented his trip from NJ to GA and how at certain points on his trip, he had to to scramble to find a charger and the various issues he had with charging his Rivian. He also spent more than $56 for the one charging station he used. And Rich isn't anti EV. Heck he has two repair shops that do EV repairs.

yeah, no wonder Rivian is going bankrupt....I'll stick to Tesla

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I get your point and it is exactly why its not good for a majority/global application.
A trip from Glasgow to London and back would be easy as a 800 mile trip as there are plenty of chargers enroute some 350kw ie better than Tesla
BUT when you go off the beaten road for nearly 7 hours Teslas or EV's as I alluded to earlier and am posting now are useless..
I'll attach the trip details from the tesla website nil are fast chargers for the 7hour leg and the IX stats just for comparison.

wow, yeah, looks like the charging network and home charging times in the UK just aren't ready yet....

Our home charger charges at 43 mile an hour, so full charge takes about 5 hours

I always set mine to charge at 1am and its always ready by 5am.
We also have 250kw Tesla super chargers stations that take about 15 minutes to go from 6% to 80% and they are everywhere when you are away from home


Toyota, who is late to the game, just announced some crazy tech that claims 900 mile range and 15 minute charge times....that would be a complete game changer