[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by aliiin

I’m ready to get roasted for this one:

Although I love kids, I don’t want any because I think the emotional reward is not worth the time, stress, uncertainty, and anxiety it brings.

Man this hits home.

I have the EXACT same feeling..... and I have 2 kids of my own. It's not that I don't love my kids... I do. But holy shit I do not enjoy being a dad. I wasn't a big fan of kids before having kids, and everyone around me told me I'd love kids once I had my own. Nope, not at all - if anything my opinion of kids has worsened.

My only saving grace is that it will eventually become more rewarding when they get older and are more independent and I 1) get some of my life back and 2) am actually able hang out with them as opposed to currently just making sure they survive.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by aliiin

I’m ready to get roasted for this one:

Although I love kids, I don’t want any because I think the emotional reward is not worth the time, stress, uncertainty, and anxiety it brings.

Perhaps it was from growing up fairly poor with parents who divorced early, but I knew from very young that I didn't want children.

I always knew I didn't want the responsibility for another life.

I turn 41 in a few months, still glad I don't have children.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by aliiin

I’m ready to get roasted for this one:

Although I love kids, I don’t want any because I think the emotional reward is not worth the time, stress, uncertainty, and anxiety it brings.

Not from me, I'll shield you from the flames haha.

I'm indifferent about kids and knew for a long time that I never wanted any. One's life is 'over' as they take over and the parents just get consumed worrying about what next to do for the kids. Still, you'd never hear any real honesty about ppl w regrets, OP is honest here and in another forum, I think maybe another person but the majority, even though anon, won't admit that it's a life-long grind.

You parents are saints, suffering needlessly to further our race haha.

[bayarea328xit]

Originally Posted by aliiin

I’m ready to get roasted for this one: Although I love kids, I don’t want any because I think the emotional reward is not worth the time, stress, uncertainty, and anxiety it brings.

I learned more about myself and people in general from my kids than I could have observing others (even closely) or reading any number of books. Living with someone with intimate knowledge of their exposure teaches you a lot about what makes us different and still the same.

I agree that it is not for everyone - one of my kids wants no kids, and I agree that (given their personality and philosophy) they shouldn't have kids.

It is great that people actually think about this stuff before having a kid - nothing worse that being a kid knowing that your parent's don't love/respect/understand you.

[Esteban]

I have grown children and I love being a dad. My daughter is my best friend. I understand that kids aren’t for everyone. It’s wise to make that decision before you have children. My daughter does not want them, neither does my son. That means I probably won’t have grandchildren. I’m okay with that and respect their decisions.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I have grown children and I love being a dad. My daughter is my best friend. I understand that kids aren’t for everyone. It’s wise to make that decision before you have children. My daughter does not want them, neither does my son. That means I probably won’t have grandchildren. I’m okay with that and respect their decisions.

Ok, I have to ask esp after reading OkieSnuffBox's post because even though I only know you online, you seem like a very decent fellow, so it must've come as a bit of a shock considering you love kids that yours don't want any of their own: are they just cynical of the world or some other reason?

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Ok, I have to ask esp after reading OkieSnuffBox's post because even though I only know you online, you seem like a very decent fellow, so it must've come as a bit of a shock considering you love kids that yours don't want any of their own: are they just cynical of the world or some other reason?

My son is a confirmed bachelor and doesn't expect to ever settle down and does not want to bring kids into an unstable and insecure environment and my daughter does not want the responsibility. Her husband feels the same.

[Esteban]

^^ Kids are a huge responsibility as we all know and you have to be ready and want that responsibility. If not it will be a burden and you might find yourself resenting your children and nobody wants that.

[aliiin]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Man this hits home.

I have the EXACT same feeling..... and I have 2 kids of my own. It's not that I don't love my kids... I do. But holy shit I do not enjoy being a dad. I wasn't a big fan of kids before having kids, and everyone around me told me I'd love kids once I had my own. Nope, not at all - if anything my opinion of kids has worsened.

My only saving grace is that it will eventually become more rewarding when they get older and are more independent and I 1) get some of my life back and 2) am actually able hang out with them as opposed to currently just making sure they survive.

It's nice to hear an honest perspective here. All my friends and family think I'll change my mind when I meet the right person, but it's actually my strongest conviction to be child-free. Hats off to parents out there - you sacrifice a lot for your kids.

[JMcLellan]

What I love about this kids and no-kids discussion is that everyone knows exactly what they want and they have stuck to it. My wife and I were very much aligned knowing that we both wanted kids, and we both wanted 2 kids. There just wasn't another option for us and we're grateful that we were able to do that. But everything the poster mentioned on why kids are a pain are 100% true and it is very challenging as a parent. One of the hardest things for me is feeling close to my wife with kids stuff taking priority. We met in 2009 and had our first boy in 2012 so we didn't have that much time with just the two of us. Now the kids are older and it's easier to have them stay over at friends and families houses we are finding more time for the two of us which has been great.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by aliiin

It's nice to hear an honest perspective here. All my friends and family think I'll change my mind when I meet the right person, but it's actually my strongest conviction to be child-free. Hats off to parents out there - you sacrifice a lot for your kids.

Yeah it really does consume your life - the life I once had and the freedoms that came along with it are long gone. For many parents, they're able to adjust and actually enjoy this new life dominated by their children - but I've struggled with it a lot. I still miss simple pleasures like being able to leave the house whenever I want, only having to worry about myself (and my wife, but she's obviously self-sufficient). It's doubly tough for me because my wife works a lot of weekends, so I'm juggling both kids - want to meet a friend for lunch? Unless I drag these 2 kids with me, along with a diaper bag, stroller, milk, etc, sorry I can't do lunch. Even if I decided to, the mere headache and hassle would make lunch such a stressful experience that I'd rather just stay home. Want to go to the movies? Need to plan far in advance, ensure childcare is available, and then factor in the added expense of a sitter. Hell we can't even watch a movie at home unless it's a kiddie movie or if we force ourselves to stay up late after the kids are asleep - then we're just tired the next day while the kids are up fresh. There is no more spontaneity.

Then there's sleep quality - I've probably aged 15 years in the last 5 because of the stress and lack of sleep that comes with having young children. Vacations don't help you reset - you're just taking care of your kids but in a different location. My best vacation that I've had in the past 5 years was a solo trip I took to go to my brother's wedding overseas (my wife couldn't come because we were expecting our 2nd child then). We're taking a trip later this month to an all-inclusive resort in the Dominican - hoping that maybe all-inclusive is a better route than a traditional vacation where we go exploring. I'll report back but don't have high hopes

Beyond all this is the sheer cost of it all. My wife insists we send our daughter to private school - so that's an extra $1,200 a month right there. On top of that for our son who's currently 8 months old, we have a nanny. That's about $3k a month. Can you imagine what we could afford on $4,200 a month? And that's not even including things like activities for my daughter (swimming, ice skating, etc) and diapers/wipes/clothes etc. And of course medical expenses and premiums. All in all it's probably closer to $6k a month.

Sorry a big word-vomit of a rant.... It should be stressed I do love my children But I'm totally on board with people who don't want to have their own. And I'm not going to sit here and pretend having children of your own will change how you feel - because it didn't for me. I still take good care of my kids, make sure they're happy and healthy, and I don't and won't ever let them know how I feel about having kids.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by JMcLellan

What I love about this kids and no-kids discussion is that everyone knows exactly what they want and they have stuck to it. My wife and I were very much aligned knowing that we both wanted kids, and we both wanted 2 kids. There just wasn't another option for us and we're grateful that we were able to do that. But everything the poster mentioned on why kids are a pain are 100% true and it is very challenging as a parent. One of the hardest things for me is feeling close to my wife with kids stuff taking priority. We met in 2009 and had our first boy in 2012 so we didn't have that much time with just the two of us. Now the kids are older and it's easier to have them stay over at friends and families houses we are finding more time for the two of us which has been great.

I think you need that time alone first. We met at 19 and were married at 20. Didn't have kids till we were 27. We planned it that way so we could have time for just us before raising a family. We were ready when we had our kids. Now they're grown and it's back to just us again.

[Esteban]

Just read wtwo3's post above and wanted to say they grow up quickly. For us, before we knew it they were old enough to take care of themselves and we were able to go out on our own and leave them at home without worrying.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Just read wtwo3's post above and wanted to say they grow up quickly. For us, before we knew it they were old enough to take care of themselves and we were able to go out on our own and leave them at home without worrying.

Yes there's definitely light at the end of the tunnel. I know people say to enjoy this moment because before you know it they'll be grown. For me it's more like - I have to be honest with myself and admit that I'm not enjoying this moment, and I'm actually looking forward to when they'll be grown. It'll be a good mix of actually enjoying time with them and starting to get my life back.

[H2O_Doc]

Easy Cheese is underrated.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Man this hits home.

I have the EXACT same feeling..... and I have 2 kids of my own. It's not that I don't love my kids... I do. But holy shit I do not enjoy being a dad. I wasn't a big fan of kids before having kids, and everyone around me told me I'd love kids once I had my own. Nope, not at all - if anything my opinion of kids has worsened.

My only saving grace is that it will eventually become more rewarding when they get older and are more independent and I 1) get some of my life back and 2) am actually able hang out with them as opposed to currently just making sure they survive.

I sorta feel the same, sorta, maybe not as strongly as you. It has it's moments but the under age 5 phase is a fucking slog. The lack of sleep and constant care they need is draining.

There are a few factors at play that sort of generate this response though.

1) Often both parents are working, adding huge stress tot he child rearing tasks as everyone is time squeezed.

2) Modern north american women are, for the most part, a fucking emotional mess. Especially the upper middle, aspirational class. The dithering, indecision, poor parenting, babying of the children, creating dependent children, fear of everything (this is a huge one) creates tension and an ENORMOUS workload.

3) Kids are coddled too much, i'm not an idiot, things like child safety seats and helmets on a bike make sense but again, usually the mothers, brushing the kids teeth, doing their hair etc..... you create work for yourself.

It does definitely get easier, mine are 11 and and it's WAY easier than 5 and 1, no contest.

But yeah, I was struggling a bit and make no mistake, no one but your mother gives a flying fuck about you and how you feel, it's all about the women and post partum stress etc. My solution was a cliche, I bought my 997, now TBH I usually have the kids in tow but that is ok. I just did something for me despite knowing it makes no fucking financial sense.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Yeah it really does consume your life - the life I once had and the freedoms that came along with it are long gone. For many parents, they're able to adjust and actually enjoy this new life dominated by their children - but I've struggled with it a lot. I still miss simple pleasures like being able to leave the house whenever I want, only having to worry about myself (and my wife, but she's obviously self-sufficient). It's doubly tough for me because my wife works a lot of weekends, so I'm juggling both kids - want to meet a friend for lunch? Unless I drag these 2 kids with me, along with a diaper bag, stroller, milk, etc, sorry I can't do lunch. Even if I decided to, the mere headache and hassle would make lunch such a stressful experience that I'd rather just stay home. Want to go to the movies? Need to plan far in advance, ensure childcare is available, and then factor in the added expense of a sitter. Hell we can't even watch a movie at home unless it's a kiddie movie or if we force ourselves to stay up late after the kids are asleep - then we're just tired the next day while the kids are up fresh. There is no more spontaneity.

Then there's sleep quality - I've probably aged 15 years in the last 5 because of the stress and lack of sleep that comes with having young children. Vacations don't help you reset - you're just taking care of your kids but in a different location. My best vacation that I've had in the past 5 years was a solo trip I took to go to my brother's wedding overseas (my wife couldn't come because we were expecting our 2nd child then). We're taking a trip later this month to an all-inclusive resort in the Dominican - hoping that maybe all-inclusive is a better route than a traditional vacation where we go exploring. I'll report back but don't have high hopes

Beyond all this is the sheer cost of it all. My wife insists we send our daughter to private school - so that's an extra $1,200 a month right there. On top of that for our son who's currently 8 months old, we have a nanny. That's about $3k a month. Can you imagine what we could afford on $4,200 a month? And that's not even including things like activities for my daughter (swimming, ice skating, etc) and diapers/wipes/clothes etc. And of course medical expenses and premiums. All in all it's probably closer to $6k a month.

Sorry a big word-vomit of a rant.... It should be stressed I do love my children But I'm totally on board with people who don't want to have their own. And I'm not going to sit here and pretend having children of your own will change how you feel - because it didn't for me. I still take good care of my kids, make sure they're happy and healthy, and I don't and won't ever let them know how I feel about having kids.

Holy rant haha. I feel bad for you and your wife, if we lived in the same city, I'd offer to baby/child sit for your guys free-of-charge. Man...and $72K/yr just on kids??? No wonder we're childless, I'd be working forever and beyond, and will kiss my (relatively) carefree life goodbye

[JMcLellan]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I think you need that time alone first. We met at 19 and were married at 20. Didn't have kids till we were 27. We planned it that way so we could have time for just us before raising a family. We were ready when we had our kids. Now they're grown and it's back to just us again.

True story. When we met I was 28, she was 26. For some reason I felt pressure to get cracking on having kids soon so I wasn't the guy having kids at age 35 or later. We also were stupid and assumed that after her stopping birth control it would take a few months for it to wear off.......and we were way off; it was nearly instant. We do find time for each other having date nights throughout the year, and a few kids-free weekends, and about every other year we do a long vacation with no kids. Finding that balance as a parent is needed. Then for my own sanity having the my BMW 2 series doesn't hurt either!

[Alfisti]

As for costs, we have spent 250K on child care..... it's fucking brutal.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I sorta feel the same, sorta, maybe not as strongly as you. It has it's moments but the under age 5 phase is a fucking slog. The lack of sleep and constant care they need is draining.

There are a few factors at play that sort of generate this response though.

1) Often both parents are working, adding huge stress tot he child rearing tasks as everyone is time squeezed.

2) Modern north american women are, for the most part, a fucking emotional mess. Especially the upper middle, aspirational class. The dithering, indecision, poor parenting, babying of the children, creating dependent children, fear of everything (this is a huge one) creates tension and an ENORMOUS workload.

3) Kids are coddled too much, i'm not an idiot, things like child safety seats and helmets on a bike make sense but again, usually the mothers, brushing the kids teeth, doing their hair etc..... you create work for yourself.

It does definitely get easier, mine are 11 and and it's WAY easier than 5 and 1, no contest.

But yeah, I was struggling a bit and make no mistake, no one but your mother gives a flying fuck about you and how you feel, it's all about the women and post partum stress etc. My solution was a cliche, I bought my 997, now TBH I usually have the kids in tow but that is ok. I just did something for me despite knowing it makes no fucking financial sense.

I agree on the points made. Both of us are working, and I think what makes things even more difficult is our differing schedules. So a lot of single-parenting going on at different times of the week (although I tell my wife she has it easier because we have the nanny to help out more during the week than during weekends).

I wouldn't call my wife an emotional mess, but she has her moments. She's a physician, so that actually hurts the situation because everything is a medical issue that needs to be dealt with. Daughter not eating much lately? I chalk that up to her being a picky 5 year old and she'll eat when she's hungry. My wife on the other hand thinks she might have an eating issue and is worried about her nutrition and maybe we need to take her in to the pediatrician.

That also goes hand in hand with them being coddled too much. Our son has eczema. My response was - he'll grow out of it eventually as I had it as well and didn't have any long term issues. Her response? We need to schedule appointments with the pediatrician, dermatologist, allergist, and dietician. Now we have a daily skincare routine for him along with daily baths and a bleach bath every other day. It's a goddman nightmare. I remind her, with all this extra care she's making us do, it's a miracle the kids survive when I'm handling them on the weekends.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

As for costs, we have spent 250K on child care..... it's fucking brutal.

Ya, I did the math, way too much opportunity cost, esp since I'm not a fan of those little munchkins

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Holy rant haha. I feel bad for you and your wife, if we lived in the same city, I'd offer to baby/child sit for your guys free-of-charge. Man...and $72K/yr just on kids??? No wonder we're childless, I'd be working forever and beyond, and will kiss my (relatively) carefree life goodbye

move to Chicago - we can use some free babysitting.

Yeah the cost is no joke. I had dreams of retiring at 50 - which then got moved to 55... now I'm wondering if I need to revise it again to 60. I take solace in the fact that eventually when they're grown, childcare costs will go down. When my wife finally agrees to send them to public school and we don't need a nanny - that'll be a good chunk of change we save per month. I'm not worried about college expenses as they'll have fully funded education funds by the time they've graduated high school (at least funded through undergrad.... they're on their own for grad school).