[Danyutz]

40 new models, is this good or bad?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by OneRib

Another idea to consider is the obsession with "innovation" it is overused and overvalued. Reminds me of the whole "synergy" craze consultants would always talk about. There was an interesting take on this in a Freakonomics podcast that rebutted the importance of innovation.

To that point Steve Jobs did change the market in smartphones, but after the initial iPhone all I see are mild product enhancements. Better screen, software, battery life, faster hardware.

Quite right. Not every single product is going to be a game changer. You have to keep providing and incrementally improving what you know is profitable and has a proven target market. It's that profit that allows you to invest in new ideas and create the next disruptive product.

The thing about BMW's portfolio today is you see a lot of hatchbacks. The reality is that people like practicality and hatchbacks are nothing if not practical. Like others, BMW has learned that you can't just call something a hatchback and expect it to sell though. Hence SUVs are often marketed first for their presence, strength, and ruggedness, and only incidentally for their five door convenience.

BMW's GT models and 4 Series Gran Coupe, as well as similar products from others like Audi, are testbeds for bringing the practicality of five doors to people who remain averse to SUVs, yet would not be caught dead in a traditional hatchback or wagon. I think they are pretty bold moves. In time - at least here in the West - when the dust settles there probably won't be a very big slice of pie left for the four door passenger car. I figure it will be about the size of today's two-door coupe market, and will be dominated by vehicles that are evolutions of today's "four door coupe". Furthermore, as SUVs become more and more car-like, eventually those people who the GT and GC models were built to ween will have come around, and those models can go away. The proper SUVs will have evolved to be even more car-like and essentially functionally equivalent to them anyway.

Originally Posted by Danyutz

40 new models, is this good or bad?

You'll have to keep an eye on BMW's monthly sales reports over the next 20 months to know the answer to that. They are always posted in this forum, so watch for them and join the lively discussion.

[OneRib]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Quite right. Not every single product is going to be a game changer. You have to keep providing and incrementally improving what you know is profitable and has a proven target market. It's that profit that allows you to invest in new ideas and create the next disruptive product.

The thing about BMW's portfolio today is you see a lot of hatchbacks. The reality is that people like practicality and hatchbacks are nothing if not practical. Like others, BMW has learned that you can't just call something a hatchback and expect it to sell though. Hence SUVs are often marketed first for their presence, strength, and ruggedness, and only incidentally for their five door convenience.

BMW's GT models and 4 Series Gran Coupe, as well as similar products from others like Audi, are testbeds for bringing the practicality of five doors to people who remain averse to SUVs, yet would not be caught dead in a traditional hatchback or wagon. I think they are pretty bold moves. In time - at least here in the West - when the dust settles there probably won't be a very big slice of pie left for the four door passenger car. I figure it will be about the size of today's two-door coupe market, and will be dominated by vehicles that are evolutions of today's "four door coupe". Furthermore, as SUVs become more and more car-like, eventually those people who the GT and GC models were built to ween will have come around, and those models can go away. The proper SUVs will have evolved to be even more car-like and essentially functionally equivalent to them anyway.

Very good points. Also why BMW initially refused to call the original X5 an SUV and kept using the SAV moniker. You can see now that customers are accepting of luxury SUVs, BMW is comfortable using the term even if literature may still say SAV.

Same for the GC models. I still consider them sedans but Mercedes went to great lengths with the CLS to call it a coupe to capture those individuals who still desired a sporty, stylish vehicle and were willing to pay a price premium for it. BMW, Audi, and others are following the same strategy.

I can only imagine what the oft rumored BMW or MB pickup truck would be called.

[AntDX316]

I assume the dealers can't have a good inventory of every single model such as some people (potential buyers) would come in looking for a model that doesn't exist at the dealership and prob buy Mercedes or Lexus instead?

The strategy of picking 40 models to each dealership with different options would be quite a challenge. Some companies only have like up to 20-30 different models or less in their lot but of course BMW does it where they have multiple variants of the same "chassis" but considered different model.

9 - car models excluding M8.
6 - SUV models excluding X7.

Having worked on these vehicles for "retrofits" I find the revisions they do are really awesome. Running different lines across the whole car such as hydraulic and electrical. Different modules and components requiring different pins. It's more than just a year upgrade on the same chassis and some programming.

[wdeerfield]

when the price to lease an x3 is cheaper than a 3er wagon, of course the blind public will go with the x3. bmw prices it to move more SUVs than other models in the US. and being built in the US helps to keep that cost where its at. its no surprise. The people want SUVs because all car commercials are SUVs. so Scott isnt wrong when he says thats what the people want. its what they know and think they want. A car purchase is a large investment for the average family and they are not willing to "make it work" with something potentially smaller even though its all they need.

Id love a 1er sedan with xdrive and a turbo 4 pushing close to 300hp. is it possible, yes. will bmw offer it here? nope.

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Let's be clear: This is an enthusiast's forum, not "Town and Country" nor "Vanity Fair" magazines. Sure, BMW found a sweet spot for customers seeking a mini-van alternative. Sadly, BMW also seems to have lost interest in developing exciting products for enthusiasts.

I am sincerely glad you enjoy your X-vehicle! But one size doesn't fit all, and enthusiasts have passionate opinions, just like fans.

I was pretty clear in my response to your initial post, which IMO, was ignorant. Passionate or not, comparing an X3 to an old Buick is laughable and I disagree. Love it or hate it, BMW currently makes some of the best performing SAV/SUVs in the world. In most cases, they out perform 99% of what's on the road today. Because a family's needs require an SUV only, that makes them less than an enthusiast? You don't think an X3M could be for enthusiasts? For a family of 5 in a big city with space for only 1 vehicle, the X3 for us is a "one size fits" all. Having the N55 with 300+hp with AWD on tap doesn't hurt either. Why shouldn't consumers have the option for something better than a mini-van? The X3M, for what it is and if done right, would be nothing short of awesome.

Originally Posted by Silververtu

So more ugly SUV, less beautiful sporty cars

So what do you call the addition of the M2 and M4 GTS?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Quite right. Not every single product is going to be a game changer. You have to keep providing and incrementally improving what you know is profitable and has a proven target market. It's that profit that allows you to invest in new ideas and create the next disruptive product.

The thing about BMW's portfolio today is you see a lot of hatchbacks. The reality is that people like practicality and hatchbacks are nothing if not practical. Like others, BMW has learned that you can't just call something a hatchback and expect it to sell though. Hence SUVs are often marketed first for their presence, strength, and ruggedness, and only incidentally for their five door convenience.

BMW's GT models and 4 Series Gran Coupe, as well as similar products from others like Audi, are testbeds for bringing the practicality of five doors to people who remain averse to SUVs, yet would not be caught dead in a traditional hatchback or wagon. I think they are pretty bold moves. In time - at least here in the West - when the dust settles there probably won't be a very big slice of pie left for the four door passenger car. I figure it will be about the size of today's two-door coupe market, and will be dominated by vehicles that are evolutions of today's "four door coupe". Furthermore, as SUVs become more and more car-like, eventually those people who the GT and GC models were built to ween will have come around, and those models can go away. The proper SUVs will have evolved to be even more car-like and essentially functionally equivalent to them anyway.

Some are pretty bold moves indeed. That's why I can't understand why some here are so quick to initially bash BMW and others for pushing ideas and innovations forward. Some will work and some will fail. We may not all agree on the direction they are going in but to just blindly crap on it all is not being realistic. If designing/manufacturing and selling thousands of Xs, XMs, niche GCs and GTs pays for M2s, GTSs and the such, how is that a bad thing? Personally, I think we are on the fringe of great things to come.

[d05wtt]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Hi, and interesting. I bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee after first shopping the X5. The X quickly fell from contention after learning it isn't even engineered for off-road use. The Jeep, on the other hand, was proficient both on and off-road, as well as being very comfortable, well-built, and reliable. I loved it during many mountain adventures, all-seasons.

I'm sincerely glad you enjoy your X3. It would be a boring world if we all drove the same vehicle. How do you use your X3?

While I can't comment on your opinions on the way it looks or drives because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I can say something about your other comment. You criticize the X5 for not being "engineered for off-road use." It wasn't created for that purpose. C'mon, you know that. These cars were made for soccer moms, or going shopping at Costco, or for safety concerns, etc. You do realize that the majority of so-called SUVs today are for that purpose, not to go off-roading, right? They can do a little off-roading if needed but they're not dedicated off-roading cars. They're people carriers, not for driving in a safari in Africa. How many BMWs, Fords, Hondas, Nissans, or Hyundai SUVs do you see in the Kenyan National Wildlife Preserve? They're usually Land Rovers or Toyota Land Cruisers, or etc.

Btw, when I drove my ex-gf's Grand Cherokee, I found it "drove like an old Buick." Also, I bet the majority of people find stations wagons to have "ugly aesthetics." Otherwise there would be a lot more station wagons on the road. Just saying.

[OneRib]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

when the price to lease an x3 is cheaper than a 3er wagon, of course the blind public will go with the x3. bmw prices it to move more SUVs than other models in the US. and being built in the US helps to keep that cost where its at. its no surprise. The people want SUVs because all car commercials are SUVs. so Scott isnt wrong when he says thats what the people want. its what they know and think they want. A car purchase is a large investment for the average family and they are not willing to "make it work" with something potentially smaller even though its all they need.

Id love a 1er sedan with xdrive and a turbo 4 pushing close to 300hp. is it possible, yes. will bmw offer it here? nope.

Also I find most women I talk to about cars pick SUV's becaue they offer the elevated view of the road and feel "safer" because they are so big. They don't want a wagon or a sedan because they don't offer those traits. Plus American roads are big enough to fit them so there is no significant negative to owning one.

[BMW-ALPINA]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It's what the people want.

Me and all that ones I have spoked with wants the "electric" turn signal and wiper handles back (not the cheap "VW" mechanical that is in the new 5er). Hope you will fix this for the LCI...

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

when the price to lease an x3 is cheaper than a 3er wagon, of course the blind public will go with the x3. bmw prices it to move more SUVs than other models in the US. and being built in the US helps to keep that cost where its at. its no surprise. The people want SUVs because all car commercials are SUVs. so Scott isnt wrong when he says thats what the people want. its what they know and think they want. A car purchase is a large investment for the average family and they are not willing to "make it work" with something potentially smaller even though its all they need.

Id love a 1er sedan with xdrive and a turbo 4 pushing close to 300hp. is it possible, yes. will bmw offer it here? nope.

Base price for a 330ix wagon is almost $3K and $100 more to lease per month than a base X3 28i, so the public is not so blind with their wallets. I agree that they will eventually be less expensive (if they don't get killed off) but in the meantime, you could argue that wagons don't sell because people don't want them and they are more expensive.

I don't know much about marketing but what I do know is no one watches commercials anymore...do they? I fast forward.

Sometimes it really is about what people need that they can afford then what they want that they can't. Money spent does the talking. Most consumers need people movers and some consumers want people movers that perform.

I would love to see BMW make the 1er that you want and bring it stateside. The question is do you really need one or do you really want one? Why wouldn't you be willing to "make it work" with something slower? I need a people mover and I want one that performs.

Originally Posted by OneRib

Also I find most women I talk to about cars pick SUV's becaue they offer the elevated view of the road and feel "safer" because they are so big. They don't want a wagon or a sedan because they don't offer those traits. Plus American roads are big enough to fit them so there is no significant negative to owning one.

This couldn't be more accurate. And for some married folks, like myself, happy wife...happy life...happier life with an M.

[Gamb1t]

Originally Posted by Danyutz

40 new models, is this good or bad?

BMW like many car mfg is in for the revenue and profit. Right now they are chasing the China market. The new money there doesn't really care too much about racing heritage, sporty dynamics whatever. It's about who has the biggest, showiest, unique-est, bling-est, special editionest, special special M-est, most gadget-est vehicle.

RoW will just have to ride the storm through and hope that our beloved models don't get the axe in an effort to produce more X-whatever long wheel base, FWD, transverse box on wheels.

If I have the money, I will stock up on as many manual genuine M-classics as possible.

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by kozzi

I was pretty clear in my response to your initial post, which IMO, was ignorant. Passionate or not, comparing an X3 to an old Buick is laughable and I disagree. Love it or hate it, BMW currently makes some of the best performing SAV/SUVs in the world. In most cases, they out perform 99% of what's on the road today. Because a family's needs require an SUV only, that makes them less than an enthusiast? You don't think an X3M could be for enthusiasts? For a family of 5 in a big city with space for only 1 vehicle, the X3 for us is a "one size fits" all. Having the N55 with 300+hp with AWD on tap doesn't hurt either. Why shouldn't consumers have the option for something better than a mini-van? The X3M, for what it is and if done right, would be nothing short of awesome.

That's the second time you came up short for lacking the ability to articulate your thoughts without name calling. I'll ignore your personal challenges and keep this on topic.

You take my opinion too personally. Why do you care care if I choose not to buy the same car you drive? The forum posted the CEO's remarks for members to comment. My opinion is based on experience with Porsches and BMWs for the past three decades. And based on my experience, I would be happy for BMW's executive suite to crawl back to Audi. They have already diluted the marque enough that this is my last BMW. I and my peers are the demographic who made BMW relevant, and from this enthusiast's perspective it's sad to watch this management team destroy the brand's value.

Comparing a BMW to a Buick is relevant, but you won't know that because you're too busy name calling instead of listening. I drove dad's Buick. I drove an X3. They handle similarly in my experience. Where does that make me ignorant?

Arguing that most SUVs don't go off-road is silly because you support my point. BMW shifted focus from building motorsport-heritage performance vehicles to serving soccer moms. I know which demographic I identify with, and now everyone knows which tribe you belong to.

[Taskmaster]

How many variants of the same SUV can we have. BMWs now more concerned with answering questions no one asked, instead of the other way around. I don't see my next car being a BMW...

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by mnikhil

Lol didn't they just announce they were trying to decrease the amount of models they currently have!?!

They definitely did. Unless it was an Onion article.

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

That's the second time you came up short for lacking the ability to articulate your thoughts without name calling. I'll ignore your personal challenges and keep this on topic.

You take my opinion too personally. Why do you care care if I choose not to buy the same car you drive? The forum posted the CEO's remarks for members to comment. My opinion is based on experience with Porsches and BMWs for the past three decades. And based on my experience, I would be happy for BMW's executive suite to crawl back to Audi. They have already diluted the marque enough that this is my last BMW. I and my peers are the demographic who made BMW relevant, and from this enthusiast's perspective it's sad to watch this management team destroy the brand's value.

Comparing a BMW to a Buick is relevant, but you won't know that because you're too busy name calling instead of listening. I drove dad's Buick. I drove an X3. They handle similarly in my experience. Where does that make me ignorant?

Arguing that most SUVs don't go off-road is silly because you support my point. BMW shifted focus from building motorsport-heritage performance vehicles to serving soccer moms. I know which demographic I identify with, and now everyone knows which tribe you belong to.

I did not call you names. Never expected you to answer my questions. I don't care what you buy. Your last post would be interesting to discuss and unpack but since you think I lack the ability to articulate my thoughts and I think your statement was ignorant, no reason to discuss anything with you.

I'll be the first to say, sorry to see you go.

[Gamb1t]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

How many variants of the same SUV can we have. BMWs now more concerned with answering questions no one asked, instead of the other way around. I don't see my next car being a BMW...

Not true. BMW has been creating new segments for years now. When the X5 came out everyone was poking against BMW for losing its roots. People associate 4x4 boxes on wheels to remain in the woods and mud. The X5 however jumpstarted a new segment - Premium SUVs. Rover was the first to market back in the 80s, but they fail to execute successfully.

Then there's the X6 (I hate it btw), despite a useless in my mind design, it too also created another segment that other brands never thought of. Now we have the GLC, Acura variant, Lexus clones etc.

Then there's the X1.... that small petite premium SUV market for those that want to spend the money on a high end SUV but don't want the size. Those urban yuppie outdoorsy folks. BMW is already on its 2nd iteration while Audi, MB, Lexus and the likes are waking up.

If you dig back further, the 3-series was also created for a market that had no idea that they needed a sporty premium compact.

Sometimes to be successful companies have to create market and own that market. Create that lifestyle desire that taps into the human psyche and watch the money come in.

I do pity the dealerships and salespersons. Imagine having to memorize all the products! Carrying a wide selection of these 40+ models in a limited floor space would be a challenge.... let alone moving inventories.

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by kozzi

I did not call you names. Never expected you to answer my questions. I don't care what you buy. Your last post would be interesting to discuss and unpack but since you think I lack the ability to articulate my thoughts and I think your statement was ignorant, no reason to discuss anything with you.

I'll be the first to say, sorry to see you go.

Would love to catch-up with you over a drink.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

Not true. BMW has been creating new segments for years now. When the X5 came out everyone was poking against BMW for losing its roots. People associate 4x4 boxes on wheels to remain in the woods and mud. The X5 however jumpstarted a new segment - Premium SUVs. Rover was the first to market back in the 80s, but they fail to execute successfully.

A question no one asked.

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

Then there's the X6 (I hate it btw), despite a useless in my mind design, it too also created another segment that other brands never thought of. Now we have the GLC, Acura variant, Lexus clones etc.

Useless.

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

Then there's the X1.... that small petite premium SUV market for those that want to spend the money on a high end SUV but don't want the size. Those urban yuppie outdoorsy folks. BMW is already on its 2nd iteration while Audi, MB, Lexus and the likes are waking up.

Useless.

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

If you dig back further, the 3-series was also created for a market that had no idea that they needed a sporty premium compact.

Sometimes to be successful companies have to create market and own that market. Create that lifestyle desire that taps into the human psyche and watch the money come in.

I do pity the dealerships and salespersons. Imagine having to memorize all the products! Carrying a wide selection of these 40+ models in a limited floor space would be a challenge.... let alone moving inventories.

Most of these cars are now variants of what already exists. There is a 3 series sedan, coupe, hatch, wagon and SUV (all with different names) and a slightly larger and smaller version of the same thing.

[Gamb1t]

Clearly the numbers suggest otherwise as dictated by the growth of these so-called "question no one asked" segments. Therefore you are missing the point.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

How many variants of the same SUV can we have. BMWs now more concerned with answering questions no one asked, instead of the other way around. I don't see my next car being a BMW...

I agree to an extent. If you look at the market, everyone is buying SUVs so I guess companies like Mercedes and BMW are just trying to flood the market with as many SUV's as they can. Gas got cheap again so people started snatching up SUV's again.

Shit even Porsche has two SUV's. 15 years ago I'd of never thought that was going to happen. Hell most of these SUV types aren't even particularly practical so I don't know wtf is wrong with buyers.

I personally don't care for it but I guess we're in the minority.

[d05wtt]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

That's the second time you came up short for lacking the ability to articulate your thoughts without name calling. I'll ignore your personal challenges and keep this on topic.

You take my opinion too personally. Why do you care care if I choose not to buy the same car you drive? The forum posted the CEO's remarks for members to comment. My opinion is based on experience with Porsches and BMWs for the past three decades. And based on my experience, I would be happy for BMW's executive suite to crawl back to Audi. They have already diluted the marque enough that this is my last BMW. I and my peers are the demographic who made BMW relevant, and from this enthusiast's perspective it's sad to watch this management team destroy the brand's value.

Comparing a BMW to a Buick is relevant, but you won't know that because you're too busy name calling instead of listening. I drove dad's Buick. I drove an X3. They handle similarly in my experience. Where does that make me ignorant?

Arguing that most SUVs don't go off-road is silly because you support my point. BMW shifted focus from building motorsport-heritage performance vehicles to serving soccer moms. I know which demographic I identify with, and now everyone knows which tribe you belong to.

The fact that you think they do go off-road, just made my point. BMW SUVs were never made to go off-road, just like the Porsche Cayennes, Cadillac Escallades, Audis, etc. And if you think they were supposed to, then you really don't understand. I totally get that you think the moniker "SUV" should mean that they are off-road capable, and in a way I agree. But the reality is that most car brands make SUVs not to do that, and BMW is one of them. They never pretended to be from the start.

When you made comments IN A PUBLIC FORUM that criticize the direction BMW design is going, you left yourself open to criticism also. It's your right to opine as it is mine to opine about your comments. I will borrow your own words, "you take my opinion too personally" and throw it right back at ya. Btw, not once did I call you "ignorant" nor call you names. Since you will "never" buy another BMW, does that still make you a BMW enthusiast? And if not, I guess I won't be seeing your comments in this forum again. In that case, I wish you happiness in your life, and maybe someday, I'll see you in the Jeep Grand Cherokee forums. Take care.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by d05wtt

The fact that you think they do go off-road, just made my point. BMW SUVs were never made to go off-road, just like the Porsche Cayennes, Cadillac Escallades, Audis, etc. And if you think they were supposed to, then you really don't understand. I totally get that you think the moniker "SUV" should mean that they are off-road capable, and in a way I agree. But the reality is that most car brands make SUVs not to do that, and BMW is one of them. They never pretended to be from the start.

When you made comments IN A PUBLIC FORUM that criticize the direction BMW design is going, you left yourself open to criticism also. It's your right to opine as it is mine to opine about your comments. I will borrow your own words, "you take my opinion too personally" and throw it right back at ya. Btw, not once did I call you "ignorant" nor call you names. Since you will "never" buy another BMW, does that still make you a BMW enthusiast? And if not, I guess I won't be seeing your comments in this forum again. In that case, I wish you happiness in your life, and maybe someday, I'll see you in the Jeep Grand Cherokee forums. Take care.

Patently false. Ever done PDC or any of the BMW drive experiences? The first thing they give you is an X vehicle which you take off road. Whether owners do it or not is a different argument. Is it as capable as a jeep, of course not, but it does have some capability.