[JJJBlackSaph86]

Yay! I'm in this group! I'm a 2021 X3 owner here and I can sarcastically say that my X3 is keeping BMW afloat.

[themnmd]

Originally Posted by walmark

There are a couple of threads on the M5 forums about options being removed even after the order was placed. Bowers & Wilkins audio option seems to be the last one that disappeared from build website and some orders:

Bowers Gone from Build Tool https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1856144

I believe it's gone from X5m, X6M, and X7 , anywhere it was an option. While not a deal breaker it does make me want to wait a year or so. Deciding between X5M or X6M

[themnmd]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Yeah so basically the Ferrari/Rolex model toward sales.

What I find odd though, and maybe somebody can explain, is that the car business is generally very volume-driven. Smaller more niche brands like Ferrari, Porsche, etc. can produce fewer cars and sell at massive margins. However, at least pre-pandemic; BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Ford etc. were volume driven in order to keep their business afloat.

So my question is, how much is BMW purposely holding back production and what is the end game? I don't take it this model is sustainable. Automakers are making a lot of money with the way things are, but eventually won't they have to return to chasing volume?

I would love for BMW to become a smaller, more focused automaker that isn't obsessed with trying to be all things for all people. But that's just a pipe dream.

Yes long wait for brands such as Porsche. I hear 2 year wait on 911 turbo S!

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by claykin

The lack of incentives in no way makes up for inexpensive financing. The current car market works because every manufacturer is in the same boat right now causing inventories to remain low. That will change and force others to follow suit. The old way of designing automotive electronics is dead.

You are right in that the model is working right now because of a combination of factors:

1. Supply chain disruption (both real and perceived)
2. Consumers seeing fewer cars on dealer lots (especially those who need a reason to spend)
3. Cheap credit (I didn't realize how important this was until I started visiting this forum. People will ask, "is thus feature worth $x", the responses will be, "at $y per month it is totally worth it to me"….the median US bank balance hasn't changed in 30 years, while average debt has increased by 40% in the last 10 years).
4. Increasing consumer impatience (social media marketing works, gotta have it now)

If I am a manufacturer the biggest threat is end to cheap credit and biggest opportunity is to sustain some level of real or perceived supply chain disruption where the loss of volume is made up by the increase in profits…the rest is just consumer marketing. 🤷🏻

My 2 cents worth.

[NickyC]

Drove by my local BMW dealer last night, it looked like a side of the road used car lot. I think the only BMWs they had for sale were either used, or a handful of brand new ones inside the showroom only. Everything else was off brand, and even then their lot was maybe 1/4th full.

Crazy times.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

X5 sales continue set records for a multitude of easily understood reasons.

The decision to make iX look like a far cry from X5 will prove to be disappointing when future sales statistics become available.

BMW actually said something on this. They dont think iX target overlaps at all with X5 (yet). iX is meant to steal Tesla Model X owner, or someone who wanted an EV and did not want ICE engine. They also gave it that crazy grille to make it stand out.

Let's see how it does then in a while.

The sales figures show clearly the lack of cars is starting to bite.

As AutoTrader piece recently shown (rightfully so) - BMW will do OK like most other car companies. They will sell now ONLY most profitable and most high margin cars, and the cheap low margin cars will not be available. So it will be a bit of a Rolex situation, and not just for BMW, but for all car companies. They all go Porsche /Ferrari model on limited supply. Margins will grow, sales suffer just a tad, but they will switch from Volume model and may never go back. If a poor person wants a BMW - he can buy a used one, will be their reasoning.

I really think this is how it goes.

[claudioagmfilho]

Nice to see BMW still up on sales

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by themnmd

I believe it's gone from X5m, X6M, and X7 , anywhere it was an option. While not a deal breaker it does make me want to wait a year or so. Deciding between X5M or X6M

As an FYI, BMW is upgrading the B&W option next July, at least for 7er ... Per Ynguldyn, on the upcoming new 7-series:

Even better version of B&W audio.

Perhaps this may also be contributing to the shortage ... BMW may be thinking it's worth a production pause / slow down and then simply moving to whatever new tech whether or not it debuts on the new 7 series. Just speculating of course ...

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Tallest

BMW actually said something on this. They dont think iX target overlaps at all with X5 (yet). iX is meant to steal Tesla Model X owner, or someone who wanted an EV and did not want ICE engine.

The questions is, is that true?

Most EV owners I know have an ICE and most car enthusiasts I know either have a BEV or heavily considered one ...

The question is, do luxury buyers put a BEV into their consideration set because of the features or because of the looks or both? I'd bet the answer is both, not one or the other.

I'm in the process of buying an SUV and considered multiple BEVs: porsche taycan cross, model x, audi e-tron. The Model X was considered, but lost on looks, while the iX is out on looks alone: it's unappealing enough for me, I don't care about the features. The Audi also lost on looks, but also features.

The Porsche t-cross was my preferred vehicle, but the range + network just won't work for me ... if I knew for sure it could use the Tesla network I may have gone for it, but right now you can't so it was a no-go.

That left me with PHEVs & ICE. Given the supply constraints right now, I ended up ordering an X5M.


Add it all up and I'd say BMW's market analysis is getting it wrong; the mistake is likely in the realm of asking familiar vs unfamiliar: "which are you more likely to buy: a battery vehicle or an ICE vehicle?"

Or they made a product and are trying to figure out how it fits in to a quickly changing landscape ...

[themnmd]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

As an FYI, BMW is upgrading the B&W option next July, at least for 7er ... [COLOR="Blue"]Per Ynguldyn, on the upcoming new 7-series[/COLOR]:

Even better version of B&W audio.

Perhaps this may also be contributing to the shortage ... BMW may be thinking it's worth a production pause / slow down and then simply moving to whatever new tech whether or not it debuts on the new 7 series. Just speculating of course ...

Would be nice if BMW had Bermeister (sp) like Mercedes

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by M3WC

My buddy is GM at a BMW dealer. Incentives are very low and dealers discounts are non-existent. Essentially everything is sold at msrp now. They are making more per car, but selling at much lower volume. His salesman are making about the same money selling less cars per month. It isn't like they raking in vast amounts of more money. They would much rather have more inventory to sell.

Oh, would they? Would you rather make X amount selling 100 cars per month or that same X amount selling 10 cars per month (oh, and cars basically selling themselves at this point so you don't even have to do anything as a salesman)?

Honestly, as a business-person myself....I never understood why dealers wanted all these cars unsold sitting in lots. It just seems a huge waste of money.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Yeah so basically the Ferrari/Rolex model toward sales.

What I find odd though, and maybe somebody can explain, is that the car business is generally very volume-driven. Smaller more niche brands like Ferrari, Porsche, etc. can produce fewer cars and sell at massive margins. However, at least pre-pandemic; BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Ford etc. were volume driven in order to keep their business afloat.

So my question is, how much is BMW purposely holding back production and what is the end game? I don't take it this model is sustainable. Automakers are making a lot of money with the way things are, but eventually won't they have to return to chasing volume?

I would love for BMW to become a smaller, more focused automaker that isn't obsessed with trying to be all things for all people. But that's just a pipe dream.

No one knows the answers to these questions. The pandemic has forced a lot of businesses to change their strategies...and some of the surprising results have made them wonder why the hell they didn't change a long time ago. Let's take working from home. Most businesses never dared to try that thinking they would lose production from employees. However, what if they actually found that employees produce the same or even better when working at home? Companies would rather keep these people working from home as it saves the company tons of money, overhead in office space, utilities, etc. etc. In other words, companies would have changed this a long time ago.

If NO ONE has a car available now....no one really loses. Now let's say you want a X5....and no one has one, but the GLE is in stock at the dealer down the street. That might be a situation where BMW could lose a sale. However, if the GLE isn't in stock....nor is the Q7....or the Cayenne....then no one loses. People will pay more for the X5 and be forced to wait. Everyone gets more money (car manufacturers that is).

I don't doubt there is a bit of a shortage in chips....but I think the effect has been the opposite of what car manufacturers thought would happen. I wouldn't doubt if they are purposely withholding some production now to further test these theories to see if it might be beneficial to change the way they operate. However, if Rolex is any example...don't ever expect anyone from BMW to admit they are withholding any production.

I'm big into Rolex....and that whole situation has been quite amazing. Everyone thought it was a bubble that would end after 1 year....then 3 years....then 5 years, and it just keeps going up and up and up. Not only that, it's starting to affect the low end models that were not affected by the first several years of the bubble. At first this was mainly a stainless steel sport issue....meaning Subs, GMT's, Skydwellers, etc.....but now stuff like Datejusts are becoming impossible to find (and these were sitting in dealer cases up until like 6 months to a year ago). The hype and social media is real. It's stupid...but it's real.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Drove by my local BMW dealer last night, it looked like a side of the road used car lot. I think the only BMWs they had for sale were either used, or a handful of brand new ones inside the showroom only. Everything else was off brand, and even then their lot was maybe 1/4th full.

Crazy times.

Checked my dealership website. It shows 96 new cars for sale.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by mjr24

No one knows the answers to these questions. The pandemic has forced a lot of businesses to change their strategies...and some of the surprising results have made them wonder why the hell they didn't change a long time ago. Let's take working from home. Most businesses never dared to try that thinking they would lose production from employees. However, what if they actually found that employees produce the same or even better when working at home? Companies would rather keep these people working from home as it saves the company tons of money, overhead in office space, utilities, etc. etc. In other words, companies would have changed this a long time ago.

If NO ONE has a car available now....no one really loses. Now let's say you want a X5....and no one has one, but the GLE is in stock at the dealer down the street. That might be a situation where BMW could lose a sale. However, if the GLE isn't in stock....nor is the Q7....or the Cayenne....then no one loses. People will pay more for the X5 and be forced to wait. Everyone gets more money (car manufacturers that is).

I don't doubt there is a bit of a shortage in chips....but I think the effect has been the opposite of what car manufacturers thought would happen. I wouldn't doubt if they are purposely withholding some production now to further test these theories to see if it might be beneficial to change the way they operate. However, if Rolex is any example...don't ever expect anyone from BMW to admit they are withholding any production.

I'm big into Rolex....and that whole situation has been quite amazing. Everyone thought it was a bubble that would end after 1 year....then 3 years....then 5 years, and it just keeps going up and up and up. Not only that, it's starting to affect the low end models that were not affected by the first several years of the bubble. At first this was mainly a stainless steel sport issue....meaning Subs, GMT's, Skydwellers, etc.....but now stuff like Datejusts are becoming impossible to find (and these were sitting in dealer cases up until like 6 months to a year ago). The hype and social media is real. It's stupid...but it's real.

Social media news and marketing works…

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by themnmd

Yes long wait for brands such as Porsche. I hear 2 year wait on 911 turbo S!

Still worth it.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by themnmd

Would be nice if BMW had Bermeister (sp) like Mercedes

I have to heavily disagree, the Burmester in Mercedes and Porsche vehicles is one of the most disappointing high end sound systems I've ever heard. On the other hand, the Bowers & Wilkins system is at the very top level across any brand of vehicle. I wish I could order a G80 M3 with B&W.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

Checked my dealership website. It shows 96 new cars for sale.

I bet the majority of those are in transit or still being built. I assume you are talking about BMW North Scottsdale. Actual units sitting on their lot is much lower.

[JRobUSC]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

Checked my dealership website. It shows 96 new cars for sale.

I'd be willing to bet if you called them or went there you'd find out most of those are presold orders that just haven't been picked up (many of which might not even be on the ground yet).

My local dealer shows three dozen. Actual available new cars on the lot? Three. The rest are sold orders waiting to be picked up, or sold orders on their way in from the VPC. They show online because they've been invoiced from BMW but there's nothing available to buy today, and the hot stuff (M's, X7's, etc.) are into Spring 2022.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

The questions is, is that true?

Most EV owners I know have an ICE and most car enthusiasts I know either have a BEV or heavily considered one ...

The question is, do luxury buyers put a BEV into their consideration set because of the features or because of the looks or both? I'd bet the answer is both, not one or the other.

I'm in the process of buying an SUV and considered multiple BEVs: porsche taycan cross, model x, audi e-tron. The Model X was considered, but lost on looks, while the iX is out on looks alone: it's unappealing enough for me, I don't care about the features. The Audi also lost on looks, but also features.

The Porsche t-cross was my preferred vehicle, but the range + network just won't work for me ... if I knew for sure it could use the Tesla network I may have gone for it, but right now you can't so it was a no-go.

That left me with PHEVs & ICE. Given the supply constraints right now, I ended up ordering an X5M.


Add it all up and I'd say BMW's market analysis is getting it wrong; the mistake is likely in the realm of asking familiar vs unfamiliar: "which are you more likely to buy: a battery vehicle or an ICE vehicle?"

Or they made a product and are trying to figure out how it fits in to a quickly changing landscape ...

I agree sir. BMW did get it wrong, marketing and design. Clueless pandering to the audience that will never buy them.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

I'd be willing to bet if you called them or went there you'd find out most of those are presold orders that just haven't been picked up (many of which might not even be on the ground yet).

My local dealer shows three dozen. Actual available new cars on the lot? Three. The rest are sold orders waiting to be picked up, or sold orders on their way in from the VPC. They show online because they've been invoiced from BMW but there's nothing available to buy today, and the hot stuff (M's, X7's, etc.) are into Spring 2022.

You may be correct. I ordered my last car and set up the car delivery service to include me on the delivery emails. I tracked them for my car but have never bothered turning it off and get regular emails about deliveries (our cars are trucked from Port Hueneme to Scottsdale; I don't bother opening the emails). So the dealership is getting regular deliveries but, as noted, they may be presold, preleased or enroute. Also, I have noted in the past that the dealership sometimes seem to share its inventory with its San Diego location so that also could be disguising the reduced number of units available.

I do get regular emails from the GM about trading in and "upgrading" but the only BMW I would tradein for is the 545e and they won't sell it in the USA.

[darksilkx1]

Originally Posted by mjr24

I wouldn't doubt if they are purposely withholding some production now to further test these theories to see if it might be beneficial to change the way they operate. However, if Rolex is any example...don't ever expect anyone from BMW to admit they are withholding any production.

Only issue I see with this is that at some point its a problem since you have invested in manufacturing facilities (sunk cost) that are not at full capacity.

Called my go to dealer today and everything is MSRP. Nice. I'll just take a pass for now.

[Zachrose]

Our local bmw/porsche/benz has resorted to getting non german used cars to fill their lots with. Some skipping model year introductions due to shortage of chips. I work in supply chain with GM and some plants have been down 11 weeks