[P1]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Too depressing.

I found that my friend's who have children couldn't watch it, or had a difficult time watching it.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

Interestingly, Elliot's parents noticed his youtube rants a couple of weeks ago and actually informed the police about it. They said they were worried about their son. The police interviewed Elliot, determined that he was a "polite young man" and left it at that.

If they were really worried, they would have looked at some therapy or something. Cops are cops, not physicians. I don't buy it. I think they are just trying to make excuses for their shitty parenting. Just my 2 cents.

The stigma about mental health issues is still very real even in today's world. Lots of people out there with real problems and they go undiagnosed because they won't go get help (or they don't have a friend to push them to get help). This kid obviously had issues. Based on the little bit of the video I watched, he had very low self-esteem and almost no sense of self-worth. Intensive therapy was probably the only thing that could have helped him.

I think everyone has a bit of a dark side, it's part of human nature. The difference is who is going to act on it...

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Templar

If they were really worried, they would have looked at some therapy or something. Cops are cops, not physicians. I don't buy it. I think they are just trying to make excuses for their shitty parenting. Just my 2 cents.

The stigma about mental health issues is still very real even in today's world. Lots of people out there with real problems and they go undiagnosed because they won't go get help (or they don't have a friend to push them to get help). This kid obviously had issues. Based on the little bit of the video I watched, he had very low self-esteem and almost no sense of self-worth. Intensive therapy was probably the only thing that could have helped him.

I think everyone has a bit of a dark side, it's part of human nature. The difference is who is going to act on it...

Agree.

The bolded part is what scares everyone when it comes to mental screening. I don't know many people who haven't at one point in their lives had some thought of hurting themselves or others or even suicide because of mental anguish. Like you said, who knows who will act on it. Take 10 people with the same feelings as this kid and you'll likely have 10 different outcomes.

[KwlAznKid]

kid's a weirdo...

[MFL]

Why don't we impose limitations on people diagnosed with these mental disorders? Nope! Let's just treat society like a padded room and hope that crazy people don't act crazy, but blame guns when they do act out.

[KwlAznKid]

Originally Posted by MFL

Why don't we impose limitations on people diagnosed with these mental disorders? Nope! Let's just treat society like a padded room and hope that crazy people don't act crazy, but blame guns when they do act out.

well the thing is I hear this kid did have a mental history and yet he still got all his guns legally... hm...

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Templar

If they were really worried, they would have looked at some therapy or something. Cops are cops, not physicians. I don't buy it. I think they are just trying to make excuses for their shitty parenting. Just my 2 cents.

The stigma about mental health issues is still very real even in today's world. Lots of people out there with real problems and they go undiagnosed because they won't go get help (or they don't have a friend to push them to get help). This kid obviously had issues. Based on the little bit of the video I watched, he had very low self-esteem and almost no sense of self-worth. Intensive therapy was probably the only thing that could have helped him.

I think everyone has a bit of a dark side, it's part of human nature. The difference is who is going to act on it...

They had tried with multiple therapists and had even hired social workers to hang out with him and try to teach him social skills. The reason that this case is significant is it's one of the first where the parents exhausted all resources of the system put in place for these people. However, the system didn't work.

[Mr Tonka]

There is no system. He even said in his manifesto that if the cops who showed up at his door would would taken a look around his place it would have been over.

Even if the cops did walk around and did foil his plans, the next guy who was planning this would know not to post any videos or manifestos until the hour he put his psychotic plan into play. Largely because the media would scream from the roof tops that police foiled a gunman's plot for a mass shooting.

These people will always find a way. Aside from everyone having a personal, impenetrable force fields, messed up people with the intent to hurt people will always find a way to do so.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by PINeely

They had tried with multiple therapists and had even hired social workers to hang out with him and try to teach him social skills. The reason that this case is significant is it's one of the first where the parents exhausted all resources of the system put in place for these people. However, the system didn't work.

That is my understanding as well. In therapy since he was a child.

With the liberty (that remains) in this country we also have responsibility. It seems like these parents did what they could do with the tools that were available to them. To me it is also clear that 'good' parents are the only ones who can stop these kinds of things, because nobody know their kid better then they do.

What kind of tools do we need to give to the parents of these unfortunate people? That is the question that we should be asking.

This kid was broken.

I am surprised nobody is screaming about GTA and video games in general (yet).

It will also be interesting to see what SSRIs this kid was on, Interesting Link

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

There is no system. He even said in his manifesto that if the cops who showed up at his door would would taken a look around his place it would have been over.

Even if the cops did walk around and did foil his plans, the next guy who was planning this would know not to post any videos or manifestos until the hour he put his psychotic plan into play. Largely because the media would scream from the roof tops that police foiled a gunman's plot for a mass shooting.

These people will always find a way. Aside from everyone having a personal, impenetrable force fields, messed up people with the intent to hurt people will always find a way to do so.

Agreed 100%, a system which cannot help these people is no system at all. I am not saying that we should (or can) create a system in which everyone is always safe from these incidences. I am pointing out that there are currently stops in place which are meant to help filter out these people but that takes diligence on both sides.

Previous mass killings have played the narrative of "if only someone had been watching and notified somebody/if only there were adequate mental healthcare/if only the parents had cared or noticed." But here is a case where people were watching and people did notify the proper authorities; where mental healthcare was provided and where the parents clearly did try to help him. This time the shortcomings were with the measures meant to stop him.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by PINeely

They had tried with multiple therapists and had even hired social workers to hang out with him and try to teach him social skills. The reason that this case is significant is it's one of the first where the parents exhausted all resources of the system put in place for these people. However, the system didn't work.

I wasn't tracking all of that. Given, I haven't looked into it that much or done any research on it, so my response was pretty much made in a bubble.

Seems like he would have done better with intensive outpatient or maybe even inpatient behavioral health therapy/treatment. I mean there's always more levels of treatment for cases like this... But I do agree that the system here obviously failed, and our treatment here in the US is sub-par for these types of things.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Templar

I wasn't tracking all of that. Given, I haven't looked into it that much or done any research on it, so my response was pretty much made in a bubble.

Seems like he would have done better with intensive outpatient or maybe even inpatient behavioral health therapy/treatment. I mean there's always more levels of treatment for cases like this... But I do agree that the system here obviously failed, and our treatment here in the US is sub-par for these types of things.

Yeah it's one of those if-or-maybe things. He probably would have benefited from a dedicated social worker checking in with him twice a day, maybe he needed inpatient, maybe he just needed to get his feet under him. But of course we can't afford to have personal SW's for every twenty-something kid who is having trouble getting laid.

Best case scenario IMO was that the police did look around that day, he was arrested and then civilly committed to inpatient treatment. Who's to say it would have worked though, which sucks.

[MFL]

This is why I am well armed at family reunions.

My uncle is Schizophrenic and has legitimately tried to kill his parents on two separate occasions. To this day, he is still left to his devices. It is upon himself to ensure that he is medicated. He has a license and he can literally snap at an instant.

I rarely carry with one in the chamber, but I do at family reunions because the dude is incredibly unpredictable and I'm not going to fuck around if he snaps around the kids or something.

If this man can walk around society as a free man unimpeded, imagine ALL of the other people that are just as bad that have slipped through the cracks.

Nope, but it's totally a gun control issue. These killers have more in common than just guns and the devil is in the details.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by PINeely

Agreed 100%, a system which cannot help these people is no system at all. I am not saying that we should (or can) create a system in which everyone is always safe from these incidences. I am pointing out that there are currently stops in place which are meant to help filter out these people but that takes diligence on both sides.

Previous mass killings have played the narrative of "if only someone had been watching and notified somebody/if only there were adequate mental healthcare/if only the parents had cared or noticed." But here is a case where people were watching and people did notify the proper authorities; where mental healthcare was provided and where the parents clearly did try to help him. This time the shortcomings were with the measures meant to stop him.

Right on.

It seems to me, at the risk of sounding cold, that we need to accept that these people who want to see the world burn will always exist and some will slip through what ever counter measure we can come up with. At least if we accept that this stuff will happen, there won't be such a knee jerk emotional reaction within the media and general public when it does. When emotion is taken out of the equation, genuine solutions can be proposed to help these people before they get past the point of no return.

I feel like events like this should not be a surprise given our current state of PC sugar coating of everything in the name of "fairness". In fact, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. I suppose the explanation for that is some people just choose to end their own life without taking others with them. I'm even surprised that some of the members of this forum haven't gone postal after some of the internet beatings they have taken from inconsiderate, condescending, mean spirited, sometimes hateful people in the OT. Rogers wouldn't have lasted a minute in OT.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by MFL

This is why I am well armed at family reunions.

My uncle is Schizophrenic and has legitimately tried to kill his parents on two separate occasions. To this day, he is still left to his devices. It is upon himself to ensure that he is medicated. He has a license and he can literally snap at an instant.

I rarely carry with one in the chamber, but I do at family reunions because the dude is incredibly unpredictable and I'm not going to fuck around if he snaps around the kids or something.

If this man can walk around society as a free man unimpeded, imagine ALL of the other people that are just as bad that have slipped through the cracks.

Nope, but it's totally a gun control issue. These killers have more in common than just guns and the devil is in the details.

Adam Lanza was Schizophrenic and I believe the 'typical' case for snapping under that condition.
I believe with this guy his problems might have been limited to Aspergers(/Autism) but combined with his family condition led him to some very insanely wrong conclusion about life and fairness, but as evidenced by his manifesto he was completely sane as far as I can tell. (Compared to the Unabomber etc. in which faults in logic were evident and a psychotic condition evident.)

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Right on.

It seems to me, at the risk of sounding cold, that we need to accept that these people who want to see the world burn will always exist and some will slip through what ever counter measure we can come up with. At least if we accept that this stuff will happen, there won't be such a knee jerk emotional reaction within the media and general public when it does. When emotion is taken out of the equation, genuine solutions can be proposed to help these people before they get past the point of no return.

I feel like events like this should not be a surprise given our current state of PC sugar coating of everything in the name of "fairness". In fact, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. I suppose the explanation for that is some people just choose to end their own life without taking others with them. I'm even surprised that some of the members of this forum haven't gone postal after some of the internet beatings they have taken from inconsiderate, condescending, mean spirited, sometimes hateful people in the OT. Rogers wouldn't have lasted a minute in OT.

I agree. Every 'take' on it in the media has been so skewed by whatever agenda that particular person holds, even if it had practically no bearing on the reality of the situation, like saying it was "mysonogy" or "male/ wealth entitlement" issues.

OT is the street corner outside the bar at closing time.
Some people walk around asking everybody if they got a problem.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by 2011CrazE89

Reminds me of my neighbors across the street. Nice retired married couple. He was a craftsman always in the garage working with wood. At church every Sunday with his wife. I decided to hire him to build me a hutch for our rabbits. He invited me in, and showed me some of his projects. One night I'm sitting in the living room and I see his house on the 10 o'clock news. I look over at my wife with this confused look on my face and say, isn't that our street? We run outside and sure enough the local news van is there. Turns out he hired a hit man to "take out" his wife. Hit man was an undercover cop!

So you're exactly right. You never know what dark side people have. I trusted this guy to come into my home. Little did I know that this monster was planning on killing his wife!

Not to derail but when I was in College one summer I worked for a carpet cleaning business, the manager was a nice guy, liked to party was into motorcycles so we hung out a bit. Fast forward about 2 years later , sitting in living room watching TV with my fiancee at the time, who's on Tv arrested for killing and dismembering prostitutes, the manager at the carpet cleaner I worked at. That sent chills up my spine.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Right on.

It seems to me, at the risk of sounding cold, that we need to accept that these people who want to see the world burn will always exist and some will slip through what ever counter measure we can come up with. At least if we accept that this stuff will happen, there won't be such a knee jerk emotional reaction within the media and general public when it does. When emotion is taken out of the equation, genuine solutions can be proposed to help these people before they get past the point of no return.

I feel like events like this should not be a surprise given our current state of PC sugar coating of everything in the name of "fairness". In fact, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. I suppose the explanation for that is some people just choose to end their own life without taking others with them. I'm even surprised that some of the members of this forum haven't gone postal after some of the internet beatings they have taken from inconsiderate, condescending, mean spirited, sometimes hateful people in the OT. Rogers wouldn't have lasted a minute in OT.

True, these incidences really shouldn't be a surprise given the statistical chances or media coverage. They are so rare anyway that they're almost negligible. It's like when a ship sinks in the Bermuda Triangle and everyone says oooooh spooky, but when ten thousand ships go through successfully it's not paid any attention to.

[MuNkY6913]

Link doesn't work! I wanna see it! Atleast he took himself out. That's a plus.

[bbbbmw]

It's astonishing that some of the posters on this thread are pointing fingers at the US mental health system. It is extremely difficult to get someone put in a mental health facility today, due to the presence of attorneys and the ACLU. His family apparently had him in all sorts of counseling since age 8, and had they tried to have him "committed" against his will, he could have hired contingency fee attorneys to sue his family and any institution that tried to hold him.

The SB Police couldn't search his apartment, because they had no probable cause.

He used a hammer and knives on his roommates, so not having a gun clearly didn't stop him.

I haven't read any reports, but he may have had a clear background check to purchase firearms, if his issues were only recorded as a minor, and not as an adult.

As an adult, his father said he refused to take his medications. And laws and attorneys prevent anyone from forcing him to take them.

The US has more people on psychiatric medications by far than any other country in the world - which means all these people are under a psychiatrist's (or doctor's) care, or else they wouldn't get the prescriptions. So we obviously have significant resources for the mentally ill in the US.

Exactly what "system" failed here? The only conclusion I can reach based upon what I read is that the parent's may have created an enabling environment for the kid (e.g. driving a late model BMW and while failing out of city college, having $5k+ in cash to purchase guns). But that's not a problem of "the system."

Personally, I'm glad "the system" allows me to have a firearm to defend myself.

Perhaps I've misunderstood some of the comments on the thread.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by bbbbmw

It's astonishing that some of the posters on this thread are pointing fingers at the US mental health system. It is extremely difficult to get someone put in a mental health facility today, due to the presence of attorneys and the ACLU. His family apparently had him in all sorts of counseling since age 8, and had they tried to have him "committed" against his will, he could have hired contingency fee attorneys to sue his family and any institution that tried to hold him.

It is not that hard to have someone civilly committed, especially if the complaint is made by a hospital. Granted, it is much easier if the person has a violent history or meets the Atkins standard.

The SB Police couldn't search his apartment, because they had no probable cause.

He had posted videos explicitly detailing his intentions on YouTube and his parents had contacted authorities, who saw said videos. They could have searched his apt but they didn't.

He used a hammer and knives on his roommates, so not having a gun clearly didn't stop him.

Agreed

As an adult, his father said he refused to take his medications. And laws and attorneys prevent anyone from forcing him to take them.

If the person presents a danger to himself or others then he may be involuntarily medicated or committed. However the same case which sets the "danger to self or others" precedent (O'Connor V. Donaldson, 1975) is also the one which most limits involuntary treatment.

The US has more people on psychiatric medications by far than any other country in the world - which means all these people are under a psychiatrist's (or doctor's) care, or else they wouldn't get the prescriptions. So we obviously have significant resources for the mentally ill in the US.

The majority of psychotropic drugs are prescribed by general practitioners, not psychiatrists. GP's tend to follow the "playbook," ie try this and see if it works, next on the list is this one, etc. Usually they have very little training or understanding in psychotropic chemicals. Furthermore the drugs should be paired with appropriate psychotherapy, which most GP's are unequipped to provide.

Exactly what "system" failed here? The only conclusion I can reach based upon what I read is that the parent's may have created an enabling environment for the kid (e.g. driving a late model BMW and while failing out of city college, having $5k+ in cash to purchase guns). But that's not a problem of "the system."

How about the fact that the police were at his door, having been warned of his intentions and having seen his YouTube videos, and walked away? He was polite, well so are most serial killers and psychopaths.

Personally, I'm glad "the system" allows me to have a firearm to defend myself.

Me too, because in these random incidences personal defense is the only defense.

[bbbbmw]

Originally Posted by PINeely

It is not that hard to have someone civilly committed, especially if the complaint is made by a hospital. Granted, it is much easier if the person has a violent history or meets the Atkins standard.

He had posted videos explicitly detailing his intentions on YouTube and his parents had contacted authorities, who saw said videos. They could have searched his apt but they didn't.

Agreed

If the person presents a danger to himself or others then he may be involuntarily medicated or committed. However the same case which sets the "danger to self or others" precedent (O'Connor V. Donaldson, 1975) is also the one which most limits involuntary treatment.

The majority of psychotropic drugs are prescribed by general practitioners, not psychiatrists. GP's tend to follow the "playbook," ie try this and see if it works, next on the list is this one, etc. Usually they have very little training or understanding in psychotropic chemicals. Furthermore the drugs should be paired with appropriate psychotherapy, which most GP's are unequipped to provide.

How about the fact that the police were at his door, having been warned of his intentions and having seen his YouTube videos, and walked away? He was polite, well so are most serial killers and psychopaths.

Me too, because in these random incidences personal defense is the only defense.

You raise good points, and add clarification I didn't have - thanks for that. However, the judgement to have someone committed against their will is easily questioned, and therefore exploited by contingency-based lawsuits. Most individuals and healthcare providers are not willing to expose themselves.

[UncleWede]

This kid was estranged from his family. His mom and dad weren't together providing the love he needed. He was transferring that need to the blondes. His parents had money, so they thought they could BUY their son love and help. He wanted them.

To say that his dad couldn't "force" him to take his meds is ridiculous. "Son, if you want to keep the BMW, keep access to the credit cards, keep access to the bank account, you WILL take you medication, you WILL go see Dr. Shirly (??), and I WILL review that data on weekly basis. IF anyone involved tells me you aren't taking your meds or taking your counseling seriously, I WILL remove your access to all of the above."

Or simply "Son, you seem to be reaching out for help. I know I've been real busy with my work, but I should spend time with you. I'm worried about your videos, please tell me what's wrong"

IF the parents were truly worried about their own flesh and blood, why were the police knocking on his door, and not mom or dad? Hollywood is maybe 2 hours from IV?

And now the parents of 6 other people not involved in this parental nightmare are dragged in kicking and screaming because the shooter's parents were too busy to love their child.

Why do we need so many more laws and licenses and background checks to get a gun, but any drunk slob can have a child???????