[bmwdj]

If this sells cheap, it will blow away Korean's cars.

[hyperboost]

Originally Posted by Fraggy

Id say F$ck china then....

Don't be greedy and maintain some integrity.

Anything that's helps the Chinese degrades the world order.

I'd say f$ck you then. Chinese degrades the world? You need some fcuking dose of reality you fanboy! I don't need to explain why but people know that many things we use are manufactured in China.

[hyperboost]

Lol I bet many naysayers here will still buy BMWs no matter what.

[Kinder]

I think a lot of people have misread the OP, it will not be BMW cars, but Chinese cars with a BMW platform, like Dacia with a Renault platform to sell cheaper cars (but you don't know the European market do you? ).

[Envyscorpio]

Originally Posted by hookandpull

China will milk this for all its worth... They will rape and pillage BMW for every last drawing and schematic and then start another god awful Chinese brand car to use all of their free designs they accumulated from BMW. How many American made TVs do you see out there? Oh yeah there is only one left and their name is Zenith. Once upon a time all TVs were designed and manufactured here in the good ole USA. It wasnt until the manufacturers got greedy and decided to save money by having Japan build them and now look what happened.

But to bring reality into perspective, I don't think majority of buyers can afford a 10k 55~60" LED TV. Bringing manufacturing back to the States is doable, but government needs to support that. But that would bring pollution, cost, and efficiencies back on the discussion table. And we Americans only work 5 days a week LOL.

Using up old chassis inventory and prolong the life span of tooling is smart. We already paid for all the tools for BMW E90 run. It's good they are keeping the E90 chassis alive and cheaper to the masses. If more parts are shared, we long term car owner will be able to buy parts 10 years from now new @ fraction of the price.

[Tsuyoi]

Fact of the matter is, having anything manufactured in the US will at least double it's cost, if not triple or quadruple it. Want a "made in the US" Ipad? Ready to shell out 2k-3k for it?

The minimum wage, health care, vacation days, and other benefits we now take for granted and are, in fact law, makes it impossible for the US to compete on an international level. Hell, even "American cars" like Ford, GM, etc import parts and materials.

[Pentium]

This is totally B$!

[nick3753]

Originally Posted by IrishCoffee

Nothing like a Chinese made German car...

My son already has one. A Kettler Pedal Car. Designed by Germany, made in China. Looks great but is constantly falling apart.

[leatherpants]

That logo is utterly blasphemous.

[silvs]

Originally Posted by Tsuyoi

Fact of the matter is, having anything manufactured in the US will at least double it's cost, if not triple or quadruple it. Want a "made in the US" Ipad? Ready to shell out 2k-3k for it?

The minimum wage, health care, vacation days, and other benefits we now take for granted and are, in fact law, makes it impossible for the US to compete on an international level. Hell, even "American cars" like Ford, GM, etc import parts and materials.

Largely not true. Apple is bringing manufacturing back to the 'ol US in a limited way. A number of other companies are looking to do the same, for a few reasons:

1. Factories are becoming more robotic anyway, so the cost of labor is not as much of a factor in overall cost of goods sold.

2. Environmental regulations and labor costs are going up across the world.

3. US now actually has cheaper energy costs than China, due to the fracking going on.

Add all of the above, with the reduction in shipping costs, locality of the supply process to the design process, trade secret violation (rampant), etc and it ends up becoming a reasonable thing to consider.

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by hyperboost

I'd say f$ck you then. Chinese degrades the world? You need some fcuking dose of reality you fanboy! I don't need to explain why but people know that many things we use are manufactured in China.

I know we do, so helping them become richer and more powerful serves no one but them.

[BMW269]

What is wrong with that? Didn't Audi rebadge the previous A4 into a Seat? Same for BMW, they will rebadge the privious 3 Series into a chinese brand. Like this every body will be able to afford "The Ultimate Driving Machine".

[Gt5422md]

What a tragic and horrible idea. Nothing good will come from this.

If you've been to China lately, then you will know that the business environment mainly about profits over pretty much everything else (quality, environment, consumer safety, etc, etc)

[Falafel Combo]

Anyone still have doubts that modern-day BMW AG is a cheap whore?

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by KORALLROT

Anyone still have doubts that modern-day BMW AG is a cheap whore?

Not for a second!

[SCOTT26]

Unfortunately some people have not just jumped the gun but possibly the moon.

The sub-brand has no definite strategy outside of China for the time being. The brand itself uses the chassis from the E90/E91 etc but with a clean-sheet design. The car is aimed at customers in emerging markets but yes in the long term there is scope for other market introductions further down the line.

But in case you have a short memory we have been down this road before but now in this reboot its the Chinese but it was The Koreans last time and look where they are now. If you can cast your mind back to the first Hyundais or Kias and yes they were abysmal back in the mid-eighties now look at how those brands have progressed. The Chinese are for the time being at that stage but at Geneva they launched the Quros brand which potentially could become the first Chinese brand to combine Chinese manufacturers cars with a global outlook , from the examples on show at Geneva there was no absence of quality or originality.

Zhi Nuo is aiming for the same perception, its not going to happen overnight to get western customers used to the idea of a Chinese made car as the perception in the media stresses unoriginality and poor manufacturing. But the Koreans had the same negative reaction as did the Japanese. When you see how long it took for this brands to become household names , potentially we could be looking at this again in twenty years time and saying remember the first Chinese cars?
The automobile is if nothing else a continuous revolution of progress , who would have thought that BMW that small car manufacturer from Munich would become the worlds no 1 premium car manufacturer?

Zhi Nuo might be concentrating on the Domestic Chinese market for now.
But the importance of this segment is very much apparent and BMW are very much tapping into these emerging markets for compact sedans with great force.
Asia of course is important to this segment but so is the North American markets even more so since the compact hatch is not well received by US customers.

Whilst Zhi Nou will launch a small compact sedan in Asia , BMW will also chase growth with the BMW brand and also the MINI brand.

We know about the 2er Gran Coupe , but a smaller sedan being a derivative of the upcoming sub 1er city hatch ,the BMW twin to the next MINI will launch with a compact sedan variant.

But with MINI and especially in North America there is demand for a MINI sedan. The interesting thing about the MINI brand is that risks can be taken , MINI customers like the adventure of being in something original and unique and the MINI sedan aims to capture that by rethinking what a sedan under MINI could be and that is in appearance, anything but conventional.

MINI customers like the aspect of MINI as a brand and how they defy expected conventions. The sedan aims to embody this but make it far more individual and interesting than any other four door.

[Teutonic]

Scott,

Should I care where the koreans are now? I don't care about their cars, I am looking at them like at any other car that do not interest me.
And why should I help chinese to become the next koreeans, the next competitors?

I will reiterate:

What I see in here is greed!
If I will be BMW I will say that I keep my verticality, not drop my pants because the chinese government impose on me. I AM BMW! I have no pride, no history, no name? Is BMW Kia?
I will have an infinite respect for a company that refused to bow just to get a piece of the market profits. Money is all that matters? What about drive experience, the benchmark of the class?
BMW is not flawless or bug free anyway, it seems that some other competitors blows hard from behind, better improve and build excellent cars and offer them in the markets where people wants them. If you want it in China, sorry, these are my conditions. You want a BMW factory in China? Sure, but I am not gonna export these cars. I personally will never buy a car build in China. Period. For many reasons, not only because their products are shitty but also because I think it is too much, I need to invest in other people that need my help: europeans that are jobless, americans and canadians that are also in trouble. Too much money in one side is not good. And I will not change the world but my gesture counts.

I see this as a downfall of the brand, and a big disapointment for me as an owner. BMW will not be a premium anymore regardless how hard they will gona scream. And for me, will not represent that special niche anymore. They want to become like Toyota? Have a good day boys, I don't want to drive a car that is driven by other 20.000 in my city.

And why should I pay BMW the same price when they build the car for less (and without any doubt with more issues)?
They build it cheap they should offer it for less. It is cheaper then becomes more affordable -> more people buy it-> no more a special car. Goodbye BMW.
They want the same money? Build in China? recall, recall, recall... -> Goodbye BMW
And even if it is a perfect car I will not buy it, because they make more money while they are paying less and because I will not buy a chinese car.

And if they will do it, there are other brands outhere. I was always proud to drive a Jaguar and I think I am gonna go back. It seems that BMW is no better anyway, in 1 year I got 4 recalls, on a car that should have no issues especialy after was in the european market for few years already.

What's BMW hidden agenda? Bulk My Wallet?

Take my opinion to your bosses...

[Fraggy]

Nice, thanks man, well said.

[snipe]

Originally Posted by Tracus

You know, Ford and Dodge do not cost like a BMW. However, Ford's quality improved tremendously in the last years.

You know, actually they do. At least in Europe, thanks to CO2-tax and other taxes. A Camaro or Mustang Boss costs the same as a brand new M3 or M5, but doesn't even come close in terms of (build) quality, fuel efficiency or refinement. And think about it before you buy it, because nobody ever will buy your used Camaro.

When you live in the US, there's a big difference between 'made in America' en 'made in China'. For the rest of the world? Nah...

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by snipe

You know, actually they do. At least in Europe, thanks to CO2-tax and other taxes. A Camaro or Mustang Boss costs the same as a brand new M3 or M5, but doesn't even come close in terms of (build) quality, fuel efficiency or refinement. And think about it before you buy it, because nobody ever will buy your used Camaro.

When you live in the US, there's a big difference between 'made in America' en 'made in China'. For the rest of the world? Nah...

Did you know that actually the americans never seen from Ford the quality they offer to the Europeans? The american Focus was a very poor one with a different awkward design. Ford had a weird policy in this matter, offering the best to europeans and not so much car to the americans. The americans never seen a Mondeo and they still don't, a car that is very beautiful. They never get the Fiesta, the nice Focus. People dying to get the ST didn't get it in America. America never got the Transit ( I am talking about the big van like VW bus, even now the american Transit is a small car). Usually, the americans got the poorer models. Only in the last three years Ford had decided to go globaly keeping the same model for everybody with some exceptions. When I came in here I was shocked to see people's perception about Fords; not the same as in Europe. Just so you know.
When we talk about the BOSS, then it is a different story, it cost money in here too, quite a lot though.

Also, you forget few things:

-these cars are coming from over the ocean, there are few costs involved and Europe has its own rules for market protection.

-the market is driven by the demand, how many people buy Mustang in Europe and how many buy BMW in US?. In the same token, I can make the same complaint since we pay a lot more for the same car (BMW or FORD) in Canada then our US neighbours. And the the canadian currency was even stronger than theirs. So?

- Ford has nothing to do with Europes tax, I am from Europe, I know how things work in there. It is not Ford's fault for the sky rocket taxes put on the CO2 emissions. Americans drive V8s and V10 on a daily basis while in Europe is a luxury. Say thank you though, there are countries in Europe that pay the same taxes for emissions like you do, plus a yearly road tax based on the engine capacity, plus a yearly government tax based on the engine capacity. I wanted to take my M3 in there before I sold it and only the taxes for that car equal half of the yearly revenue of a lawyer. So? What about that?

Quality wise, Mustang is the same in Europe or US. I know very very well Ford products.
The american cars are not as refined as the europeans ones anyway, because here and there people ask for different things.

Also, it is nobodys fault that people are not interested in a used Camaro in Europe. It is big, it is non practical for Europe, needs a lot of parking space, it is a gas guzzler, they are not very popular hence parts are rare and expensive, and the carbon tax is insane.
Different world my friend. That is all.

Ask in here an australian colegue how he feels about the price... You will be happy.

[snipe]

That's all true, but what I meant: 'made in America' means 'quality' in America, but to the rest of the world it means something like: old engines, lots of fuel, cheap plastics and mainly interesing for the home market. What's the difference with Chinese cars?

Well, there's one big difference: Chinese cars have the promise of tomorrow, a lot of ambition.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by snipe

That's all true, but what I meant: 'made in America' means 'quality' in America, but to the rest of the world it means something like: old engines, lots of fuel, cheap plastics and mainly interesing for the home market. What's the difference with Chinese cars?

Well, there's one big difference: Chinese cars have the promise of tomorrow, a lot of ambition.

Obviously, you are not aware of the american society. America was driven by oil, they didn't care about gas consumption. So "lots of fuel" ment nothing for them. The mentality is changing but slow. I wouldn't say that their engines are old, I would say that their engines are build in conformity with the demand. Or as soon as people buy them and they are not taxed as in Europe, why bother? They are still building V8 and V10. But they sell. And very well.

So far, it is a difference. First of all, if we talk about trucks, Ford builds beautiful trucks. Also their SUV's -like Explorer, Expedition, Escape- are nice too. Plus, they implemented many features from Jaguar and Range Rover in their vehicles. Since americans prefer big, they focused on these vehicles. The interior of these vehicles is actually very nice with good materials. F150 is the best selling truck for 40 years in a row.

I agree, in the past, the old Mustangs were not the best in interiors but the engineering is very good. Most icons like Mustang, Camaro, Vipers, Corvette have wonderful and potent chassis with powerful plants. These are some of the most selling sport cars, so that should tell you something. However, in the last period of time Ford, Chevrolet etc. improved tremedously their vehicle line up, bringing in nice ineteriors and a much better fit and finish.
If you are taking Cadillac, Lincoln, Buick, you will find very very nice cars with good interiors. The new Mustangs are also very nice and they are improving.

I have full disrespect for plagiators or thieves in general. This is why I hate Lexus too. They copy "a la indigo" a design and put it in the market. Or worse, they are "installing" visually 4 pipes exhaust when actualy the car has two.
How can put my money on these crooks?
Even if they will become number one, I really don't care, and I will never care, for me they will still be a bunch of crooks.
I want to invest in somebody that makes efforts, is original, works to define a line, a product, an identity.

Chinese don't have a lot of ambition. You are confusing ambition with the greed born in a society where everybody wants to do better while they still can. They have millions of people tight up inside a wall, that need to work and eat. Now, few are getting insanely rich using millions of chinese workers that are paid nothing. Is that fair?
No, I will not feed that situation. Plus, as mentioned before, too much money in one side will turn the world upside down in many aspects. And, whatever they will build, I will NEVER own a chinese car. Period.
I actually try to buy things that are build elsewhere. Anytime I go back in Europe, I must be careful that the gifts I buy are not "made in China" because the people there are fed up with chinese stuff that lack in quality.

In terms of cars, ambition is not everything. Coreeans are ambitious too but their cars are no fun. At least they do have their own design which is nice, however, design is not everything.

Just to fix a previous statement, the Mondeo it is now available un America under the name Fusion