[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by pz619

So I was intrigued and went to go check one out. The interior doesn't suck but it's also not good.

I still want to test drive one, it's definitely in the running to be my next car.

What's not good about it? It's not a Bentley. For a muscle car, you cannot complain.

*waits for rear visibility complaint*

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

What's not good about it? It's not a Bentley. For a muscle car, you cannot complain.

*waits for rear visibility complaint*

For $65K I can complain, in fact, I've complained when paying for far less

I'm not expecting BMW quality of materials and I understand the investment is in the motor/suspension, but it's simply not on par with most other $65K cars. Also I'm not a fan alcantara, I wish there was an option to go with regular leather.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

BMW won't make a M version of the 4 grand coupe because it's not rigid enough.

If that is so, how can cars like a Corvette or Panamera or TT RS able to perform like they can?

They have the same type of opening for the trunk.

IMO, it would be a dumb move to make a M version of the M4 Grand Coupe. Besides, if they can make a M version of the convertible, then I do not see why they can't make a M version of the Grand Coupe.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

If that is so, how can cars like a Corvette or Panamera or TT RS able to perform like they can?

They have the same type of opening for the trunk.

IMO, it would be a dumb move to make a M version of the M4 Grand Coupe. Besides, if they can make a M version of the convertible, then I do not see why they can't make a M version of the Grand Coupe.

Meeting price and weight limits?

You can do almost anything with money...

[AtlasM]

I personally am not super picky about fancy interiors or the lack thereof. I just want them to stay as rattle-free as possible for as long as possible. Who cares about soft touch plastics if it rattles over bumps?

The Camaro interior is fine enough for what it is. It's not a luxury car. It's a muscle car. The ZL1 is expensive because you're paying for all the go-fast stuff.

But, I wouldn't buy a Camaro as my only car because I'm one of those people who bitches about visibility. As a fun toy if I had a bunch of cars? It's certainly interesting. Although generally speaking, I prefer Corvettes over Camaros.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AtlasM

It's a muscle car.

Why do people keep saying this?

[WreckerX5d]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Why do people keep saying this?

Because it's true?

[WhatsADSM]

Originally Posted by Wrecker335d

Because it's true?

Yea but it also has another connotation that is essentially:

"Tin can with a big engine designed to go fast in a straight line"

That hasn't been true of the last 2 generation Camaros though.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Wrecker335d

Because it's true?

So all cars above what horsepower are "muscle cars"?

[Vigilante375]

Camaro and Mustang have been Pony cars but still are considered Muscle and Sport cars.

I still consider it a Muscle car. Though it's really a Pony/Sport car since the '67 year model.

[WreckerX5d]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

So all cars above what horsepower are "muscle cars"?

Just 2 door American cars with powerful engines. It's a bit subjective, but being that 650hp isn't a small amount, it's safe to say that the ZL1 is a muscle car.

[kprocivic]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

So all cars above what horsepower are "muscle cars"?

American+big engine=muscle car.

the zl1 is nice but the z28 is the monster slayer.

[AtlasM]

When I say "muscle car" I mean "American performance car more more focused on large engines than light weight or luxury, often with retro styling."

That's not a knock on the Camaro, that's just what it is.

There are certainly modern muscle cars that now also have good handling, so I don't mean to imply that because it's a muscle car it cant' also handle.

Basically, my point is that for the folks in this thread saying "it has a shitty interior for a $65k car," a fancy interior is not the point of a car like the ZL1 and it doesn't need one to be potentially worth the asking price. Which I think it is, if it's the sort of car you want.

Personally if I were picking a fast Chevy in the $65k range I'd get a Corvette Grand Sport but for those who'd rather have a Camaro, there's lots to like about the ZL1.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Camaro and Mustang have been Pony cars but still are considered Muscle and Sport cars.

I still consider it a Muscle car. Though it's really a Pony/Sport car since the '67 year model.

Camaro is not a sports car, that is the Vette.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Camaro is not a sports car, that is the Vette.

Hate to break your heart:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_cars

http://www.caranddriver.com/best-sports-cars

EDIT: Go to Chevrolet's website.......and you'll find.....

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car.html

It IS a Pony car, muscle car AND sports car. Just like a Challenger, Charger, Firebird, GTO, Vette, etc.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Hate to break your heart:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_cars

http://www.caranddriver.com/best-sports-cars

EDIT: Go to Chevrolet's website.......and you'll find.....

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car.html

It IS a Pony car, muscle car AND sports car. Just like a Challenger, Charger, Firebird, GTO, Vette, etc.

So a 4k lb Challenger that can't turn is a sports car? lol ok
You are confusing marketing with facts

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

So a 4k lb Challenger that can't turn is a sports car? lol ok
You are confusing marketing with facts

It all depends on what you think and what car reviewers say. Theres no marketing scheme in the facts I brought to light.

A true sports car per the actual definition from the beginning is spirited performance with nimble handling. No mention of weight but that is a factor to make it a sports car.

But if the car meets the required handling from the car reviewers, people who rate cars for a living, then it will fall under that category.

Facts are facts. Whether or not you want to believe it. The Challenger does handle's well for a barge but just enough to get by.

[kprocivic]

challenger is not a sport's car, that is a lost battle.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by kprocivic

challenger is not a sport's car, that is a lost battle.

agree with this. Camaro & Mustang with the suspension goodies are sports cars to me. the challenger remains a pig so I can't include it and it shall remain a muscle car only.

I kinda thought the M3 was a luxury sports car, but after driving the Camaro I realized how soft the M3 is. seating position (low), good acceleration and handling, track-worthy... the 4 doors, soft clutch, steering, and shifter all made me realize how much more of a sports car the Camaro is than the M3. still miss it though!; ?
\

[Nkc]

After all these definitions, I wonder if a gtr is a sports car.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AtlasM

When I say "muscle car" I mean "American performance car more more focused on large engines than light weight or luxury, often with retro styling."

That's not a knock on the Camaro, that's just what it is.

There are certainly modern muscle cars that now also have good handling, so I don't mean to imply that because it's a muscle car it cant' also handle.

Basically, my point is that for the folks in this thread saying "it has a shitty interior for a $65k car," a fancy interior is not the point of a car like the ZL1 and it doesn't need one to be potentially worth the asking price. Which I think it is, if it's the sort of car you want.

Personally if I were picking a fast Chevy in the $65k range I'd get a Corvette Grand Sport but for those who'd rather have a Camaro, there's lots to like about the ZL1.

Ahh, how much does a M3 or M6 weigh?

[kprocivic]

Originally Posted by Nkc

After all these definitions, I wonder if a gtr is a sports car.

yes, even though it is huge. It does everything very well and is based off no other Nissan platform. gtr is the exception to most people.