[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Even though all the others are front engine implies the e46 is something else. Explain it to me

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You did, actually. I assume you meant to say front wheel drive, concerning the others, not front engined.

Apparently you want it spelled out: Front engine, front drive cars regularly beat the front engine, rear drive E46. You're just being petty, IMO.

[1MOREMOD]

Think you misspoke and we gave you an unintended out.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Think you misspoke and we gave you an unintended out.

I suppose you're right - use of "drive" rather than "engine" would have been clearer. I plead a cold, being on drugs for my back, and other shit.

I suppose that arguing these fine points goes together with arguing about 1% weight balance - a number that is laughable to argue about.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by anglo

The inline 6 is just damn too long, it hurts handling. S2000's with their inline 4's destroy E46 M3's.

Even though the S14 used a shortened M88 in-line 6 head

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Again, all this talk of even weight distribution is misdirected. A mid-engine design with around 60% on the rears and 40% front is by far the best handling design. 50/50 just isn't as quick in chicanes and in initial turn-in.

Maybe on a racecar, but on roadcars not so sure. Usually 60/40 racecars have all the mass at the centerpoint which reduces the rotational inertia. But if thats not the case, not enough weight on the front wheels can give big problems. (and who says that on a racecar you cant get 60/40 with a mid mounted i6? )
I said before in this topic if anyone ever drove old cars like a simca 1000 or an NSU prinz.
Everyone who has knows that the first thing you do is stop for some tiles , these cars also have about 40/60 ish.
Otherwise the next corner is going to be your last as those cars literally skip on the front wheels..

[Chappers 71]

Yes. A straight six is better than a V6

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Maybe on a racecar, but on roadcars not so sure...

You need to out and drive an Acura NSX, a Porsche Boxster/Cayman, a BMW i8, an AUDI R8, or something. Then come back and tell us your experience.

Just to show you how silly your: "light front end is worse", think about this. People complain about xDrive adding weight onto the front and increasing understeer. The 50/50 allows BMW to easily tune their cars for understeer "for the average driver's safety". It's easier to remove understeer with a lighter front end: why would you want more weight up front - not as much as a front driver, but still more than is necessary for a better handling car.

The first thing that people tracking their BMW do as far as handling is to re-tune it's suspension to remove understeer; it's easier to do if the car has less weight up there.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

You need to out and drive an Acura NSX, a Porsche Boxster/Cayman, a BMW i8, an AUDI R8, or something. Then come back and tell us your experience.

Sorry, with roadcar I ment non mid engined car, hence my remark on centerpoint mass and rotational inertia which is for a formula car similar in effect to the mid engined cars you mention (maybe the i8 is the oddball). So mainly front engined cars but I guess it also goes for rear engined/
This is an I6/V6 debate, and regarding weight distribution this is only a thing for front engined cars (and rear engined, although I dont know any I6 rear engined cars).
For mid engined cars a v6 or I6 has little impact as you can generally place it anyway one wants. 40/60 on a mid engined car can just as easily be made with v6, i6, i4, v4, v8, v12 etc etc. The key is that the bulk of the mass is in the (rotational) centerpoint (which btw has nothing to do with weight distribution; a 50/50 or 40/60 weight distribution can also be achieved with an engine placed 5m in front of the front wheels and a gas tank etc placed 10m behind the rear wheels if you know what I mean )

Btw a few of those cars you mention are closer to the 50/50 than 40/60 ratio.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This is an I6/V6 debate, and regarding weight distribution this is only a thing for front engined cars (and rear engined, although I dont know any I6 rear engined cars).

You mean like the BMW M1?

[GuidoK]

No I meant rear engined like a porsche 911 or alpine 310 or a delorean dmc.
The M1 is afaik mid engined. (and shows that for a mid engined car the engine layout is of no real concern although a more compact engine obviously leaves more room for cabin space etc)

[RM7]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

No I meant rear engined like a porsche 911 or alpine 310 or a delorean dmc.
The M1 is afaik mid engined. (and shows that for a mid engined car the engine layout is of no real concern although a more compact engine obviously leaves more room for cabin space etc)

Got it, yeah I was thinking of mid engine

[Red Bread]

Double up the fun, plenty of longitudinal mid engine V12s.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

You need to out and drive an Acura NSX, a Porsche Boxster/Cayman, a BMW i8, an AUDI R8, or something. Then come back and tell us your experience.

Just to show you how silly your: "light front end is worse", think about this. People complain about xDrive adding weight onto the front and increasing understeer. The 50/50 allows BMW to easily tune their cars for understeer "for the average driver's safety". It's easier to remove understeer with a lighter front end: why would you want more weight up front - not as much as a front driver, but still more than is necessary for a better handling car.

The first thing that people tracking their BMW do as far as handling is to re-tune it's suspension to remove understeer; it's easier to do if the car has less weight up there.

I'm all for mid engines, but there's a point of diminishing returns, especially with shorter wheelbases. Most drivers were scared to death of 993 and earlier 911's at vMax. Alpines weren't the friendliest Autobahn cars either.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I'm all for mid engines, but there's a point of diminishing returns, especially with shorter wheelbases. Most drivers were scared to death of 993 and earlier 911's at vMax. Alpines weren't the friendliest Autobahn cars either.

Yes rear engined rwd is a very tricky combination. (the simca 1000 and nsu prinz were also rwd rear engine altough very lightweight cars).
A collegue of mine also had an alpine a310 (in fact I had 2 collegues who both had an a310, how rare is that ) and he said he almost lost it once, at a point that he totally didnt expect.
Its quite a miracle that porsche has managed to turn the 911 in an excellent handling car, and holding the ring record for now. But mind you, there is an enormous amount of technology and fine tuning involved into that.
For instance the gearboxes from a gt3/gt3rs/gt2rs have a completely different setup and build that transforms the complete balance of the car than say a gearbox from a 911 turbo.
Porsche 911's are all about getting the engine/gearbox as low as possible in the chassis, and they go to mechanical extremes and trickery to do that. Thats how they control that balance issue.
And mid engined cars are usually very unpractical in use.

[GuidoK]

Interesting in this discussion is that Mercedes is also going back to I6 engines.
They've recently launched a brand new I6 petrol and I6 diesel engine.
I hope they can place it just as good in the new chassis as bmw can (judging by how the engine looks.....they cant )

[Robin_NL]

I'm a V12 kind of guy, this is the engine bay of a 2000-2005s FIA GT Lister Storm with a 7 litre(!!!) V12 606BHP Jaguar LM engine. It's a mid engine(upfront behind the front wheels rwd) , about 30 % is visible in this picture the rest of the engine is on the driver's lap



And it sounds like this(from about 3:00 mins on)

Cheers
Robin

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Interesting in this discussion is that Mercedes is also going back to I6 engines.
They've recently launched a brand new I6 petrol and I6 diesel engine.
I hope they can place it just as good in the new chassis as bmw can (judging by how the engine looks.....they cant )

Yeah, MB went back to the I6 as the natural balance of the engine better fit with what they wanted from a luxury marque. It also allows them to match production with an I4 and an I6 rather than V6 and V8

The reason they were able to go back to it was because using 48V for the electrics allowed them to have electrically driven accessories, making the engine significantly shorter to gain back the packaging advantages they lost from moving away from the V6.

All reviews of these engines thus far have been overwhelmingly positive. An easy 435hp/384lbft doesn't hurt either

Mercedes may have save the I6 from extinction which is fantastic news.

[yco]

i dont think its right to I6 is better than V6.. it really really depends on what engine you re talking about..

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Interesting in this discussion is that Mercedes is also going back to I6 engines.
They've recently launched a brand new I6 petrol and I6 diesel engine.
I hope they can place it just as good in the new chassis as bmw can (judging by how the engine looks.....they cant )

Yeah if Mercedes is using inline 6's again that means it improves weight distribution and handling, it must be better.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

Mercedes may have save the I6 from extinction which is fantastic news.

surely this honour goes to BMW ?!?
Having used I6's for so long when everybody went v6 and still managed to make cars that have superior balance on the track compared to most of the competition.

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

surely this honour goes to BMW ?!?
Having used I6's for so long when everybody went v6 and still managed to make cars that have superior balance on the track compared to most of the competition.

S2000's, Miatas destroy Z3, Z4's when it comes to handling but you dont track or autocross so you wouldn't know that.
The inline 6 is damn long...

[GuidoK]

Lol you've never been on the nordschleife....
Miata's are way to slow there. And an s2000 also isnt faster there than a Z4.
But you're right, we don't race on parkinglots here, we have 12 mile long racetracks

Sell your car if you're not happy with it.