[Mako]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

What is this about losing loyal customers if there are other M-fettled cars? If a customer cannot stomach to see an M135i, and thinks less of the ///M3 and can't enjoy it for what it is and always has been, good riddance, he was never a loyal customer then.

Jeez

Loyal Customer? that is a strange term to use in a world where price is everything

I consider myself a loyal BMW fan! not customer. If something of similar performance and lower price comes along I will buy it (got my C63 for $9K less than what BMW would sell me a M3 for back in 2009, Mercedes was feeling the economic pinch and had blowout sales, $8K manufacturer incentive, plus dealers discount which was another $4K). I went back to BMW for our X3 though as its just an amazing car at a decent price, nothing out there was even close for the price. Hopefully I will be back in an M3 in a couple years, but most of you on these forums probably feel I am a traitor for buying the C63 and would prefer I don't buy the next M3,

[andnkuhn]

if they are introducing more styles of each model/series their is more market for all kinds of people wanting to buy more cars. If more cars have the M madge they are hoping to sell even more cars. if they sell more cars with more efficient engines, it will increase their MPG avg. and allow them to keep and maintain V8s and V10s with their M performance cars..MOOreee POWEERRr with out having to slam in turbos = happier car enthusiasts!

[Mahzari]

The only good that I can see coming from this is the real M models will be more focused than they currently are, similar to how Ferrari only had the F430, but now they made the California as the softer, cheaper GT car which allowed the 458 to be a more focused supercar.

Then again, it should be called an iS model because normal people are stupid and M-Sport is also available. I can't wait until some girl drives a F30 328i M-Sport or "M335iS" to school and tries to say it's an M3 because of the badges. People already ask if my brother's 135i is a 1M because it has the ///M shifter and steering wheel as standard. Why can't BMW make the same equipment sans the badge? Hell, I even think my car has WAY too many badges.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance

Thats just Audi being behind the curve. Their base engine still is no match for BMW's base engine (207hp 2.0 turbo versus 240hp 2.0 turbo) but then again the VW Group has always traditionally lagged in engine development.

Heck, they are still trying to sell the terrible 2.0 liter NA motor in the new Jettas... yep, the EXACT same 115hp lump that was in their 1996 offerings. That's a 15 year old engine!!! Its why you never see VW or Audi on Ward's 10 best engines. They are lazy when it comes to engine development.

Actually Audi is about to surpass BMW with engines, it looks like the I5 turbo is going to be the new bread winner for Audi, the Q3 coming to the states will have it (strange that the Q5 won't or the A4). But I would imagine Audi's plans are to put the 5 into all their cars as the high performance engine (not talking S models either), and we know that engine can product 340 horsepower although it looks like it will be more like 310-320 horsepower for the base cars. Personally I would take that turbo 5 over the turbo 6 N54/N55

[TOOFY]

Originally Posted by e92_m3

+1!

I didn't know that dropping the N55 engine from the 335is coupe into a 135i will turn it into an "M" car? Not really feeling the M135i name for some reason.

I know a lot will say that this is BMW's way of following Audi in the "S line" of cars, but IMHO exclusivity for the "M" vehicles are getting tarnished since the "M" badge is being used too much on a lot of BMW's new vehicle lineup nowadays.

Just because the 135i acquired the N55 engine from the 335is, it does not mean it deserves the "M" name. They should call it a 135is.

Just my $0.02.

Look at what benz does.. they have a AMG version of each class. Why not BMW? I think they do a good job keeping the M badge alive in each of those cars.

[erio]

Since when does an M car result in "forgoing everyday usability." M cars are know for versatility and it's part of their current marketing. BS....

[NC]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

I think this sucks and waters down the M brand. Every BMW is going to have an M badge on it. The cars we laughed at which slapped an M before the numeric designation like M750iL are coming true.

Unless this opens room for the real M cars to go balls to the wall and break away from the luxury market grip to become more hardcore sports cars, then I can't see ANY good coming from this to M enthusiasts or the M brand. M ALL THE THINGS!

I agree completely. It waters down the M brand and causes confusion to a degree. More emotionality? Really? Who thought that up?

Go (all the way) M or go home.

[m630]

Originally Posted by 宝马.e90

If see what you're saying but I don't think it's the same. BMW's switch to FI needed to be done for regulation purposes and seeing that FI was going to be the future. You nor BMW couldn't change/control that. By switching to FI, their focus of what a M car didn't change. BMW doesn't need to introduce a M Performance line. What BMW is doing with the M badge is changing what it stands for. It's either a M car or it isn't, there shouldn't be a M-lite.

Again, like you, as a driver, it doesn't really affect me because I know what I'm driving but to those who are really into the heritage, it really does hurt to see this happening.

This is where I differ and where my traditionalist mentality kicks in. Im speaking of FI for Ms, and that was NOT a requirement at all of regulations, but a POLITICAL decision by BMWs executive board.
Understanding CAFE standards and understanding the volumes that the M brand sells negates this whole argument. What I mean is, take the M5+M6 for example (e60/e63). On an annual basis, even in the best years, M did not sell more than 4,000-5,000 units of these lines. Based on roughly 1million cars sold per year by the BMW group, that equates to 0.004% to 0.005% of total annual sales. Does anyone think that a car line that makes up this small fraction of total sales has any real impact on CAFE standards? The answer is NO, and just look to Porsche for the proof. They sell less cars overall but can offer every line with a turbo or an NA based engine. Bottom line is BMW killed M tradition for the Green Movement which is very prevalent in Europe in particular nowadays.

Reading any of the real world use stories about the new F10 M5 for ex, and the users say they get marginally more efficiency with the new FI based engine vs the NA when driven the same way.

So if they are not getting significant mpgs, then why do it? I will suggest that its all about economics and not about CAFÉ standards or regulations at all. By switching the new Ms to FI and aligning them with the normal line engines, they are able to save significant R&D and share components. This is marketing genius really, because now they can still charge the premium that the S85 commanded because it was a truly purpose built engine, while saving the untold millions on R&D by starting off with the base engine and modifying it for the future M cars. This is what no one speaks about and this is where tradition was destroyed, imo it has nothing to do with regulation because the numbers and the volumes of these quite limited run cars cannot have any appreciable impact on the overall efficiency of BMW visavie CAFÉ.

And it absolutely changed the focus of what an M is/ was. When you had a high revving NA engine, you had a very different driving experience than a torque heavy twin turbo based engine. This FI type of engine allows anyone to drive an M like a race car driver without any real skills as to how to get the most out of the engine. Its an AMG with an M badge, imho, because you just mash and go. That is NOT the case with the S85 or any previous M series car. In the S85 and the traditional M cars, you actually had to know how to drive and what gear to be in and where in the power range to be to get the most out of the car. That is what I love about the S85 and why I cannot buy an FI based M at this point. All we hear is that the new F10 M5 is so amazing because it has so much effortless power everywhere in the band. That is not an M from a tradition sense, so as you noted above that the focus of M has not changed because of FI, Id counter that the entire history has been destroyed by FI as to what it meant to drive an M.

M is just for marketing, its performance and design oriented, but its just marketing, and the sales keep increasing so they’ll only continue this trend in the future, like with todays announcement.

[advantage20]

Without a doubt, the black tape hides ///M 335i



Edit: you are right mkoesel, who knows, maybe ///340i.

[richb811]

Originally Posted by Mako

Actually Audi is about to surpass BMW with engines, it looks like the I5 turbo is going to be the new bread winner for Audi, the Q3 coming to the states will have it (strange that the Q5 won't or the A4). But I would imagine Audi's plans are to put the 5 into all their cars as the high performance engine (not talking S models either), and we know that engine can product 340 horsepower although it looks like it will be more like 310-320 horsepower for the base cars. Personally I would take that turbo 5 over the turbo 6 N54/N55

You can keep the Turbo 5. I'll take an engine that doesn't sound like a UPS truck.

[fusion01]

Watering down of the 'M' brand. It was how I felt when I owned a 'proper' Golf GTI (mk5) and then the crappy Polo with 10 year old engine got the 'GTI' badge too. Ok, a little different, but still similar?! I'd like to not see an 'M' anywhere unless it's a 'proper' M car. Otherwise it's a little like those fools slapping 'M' lettering on the back of their model designation because it has the M sport pack! On BMW's part, it all comes down to marketing (it'll work) but the inevitable dilution will follow.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Mako

Loyal Customer? that is a strange term to use in a world where price is everything

Yeah I was quoting

Originally Posted by erio

However, by sacrificing loyal customers along with the M heritage they will in turn gain enough new customers to more than make up the difference.

[advantage20]

And here is the ///M550d... If someone can figure something out of it

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by aajami

BMW has been telegraphing this move since the introduction of the X5M and X6M. And now it's official: The M badge means nothing anymore.

Pardon my ignorance, but...



...wasn't that what every BMW was supposed to represent?! Isn't that the reason people buy BMWs to begin with?

nail on the head my friend..

[2008911tt]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

I think this sucks and waters down the M brand. Every BMW is going to have an M badge on it. The cars we laughed at which slapped an M before the numeric designation like M750iL are coming true.

Unless this opens room for the real M cars to go balls to the wall and break away from the luxury market grip to become more hardcore sports cars, then I can't see ANY good coming from this to M enthusiasts or the M brand. M ALL THE THINGS!

I completely agree with you. The "M" should be reserved for those cars that are basically track cars in street clothing through enhanced engineering, handling dynamics, power and performance. If BMW's shunkworks want to tune diesels, SUVs, and/or crossovers they should pick an alternative designation.

[advantage20]

As far as I know the Audi RS range isn't watered down by the S range although the badges are similar. The latter is just given more credit (and of course more sales potential).

Of course an S is just an ersatz of a radical RS, and an ///M335i will be just an ///M3 ersatz, but I don't doubt that the performance and handling (and esthetic) tweaks will be enough to clearly differentiate this new intermediary category, as well from the pure ///M range as from the basic stock models.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Steve335i

Well not exactly. There is and should be a performance bump like the N54- equipped 335is.

There is no peformance bump in Audi S Line vehicles. Do not confuse "S Line" with "S".

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Mako

Actually Audi is about to surpass BMW with engines, it looks like the I5 turbo is going to be the new bread winner for Audi, the Q3 coming to the states will have it (strange that the Q5 won't or the A4).

Will it? I strongly doubt that it will, unless you've seen some mention of a confirmation of that from Audi from a reliable source. The Q3 vail being shown in Detroit is not a production vehicle, if that's what you were basing your info on.

But I would imagine Audi's plans are to put the 5 into all their cars as the high performance engine (not talking S models either), and we know that engine can product 340 horsepower although it looks like it will be more like 310-320 horsepower for the base cars. Personally I would take that turbo 5 over the turbo 6 N54/N55

I strongly doubt they will do this, actually. I would expect the I5 TFSI to remain a niche engine, if it continues for the long term at all. Meanwhile the V6 TFSI is being used in just about every one of their models now, in some form or another. The I5 TFSI may remain for PQ35 (Golf platform) based high performance offerings, but even that I would say is no guarantee. Frankly I will not be surprised at all to see 300hp+ 2.0 TFSI I4 from VAG in the next couple years.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by advantage20

Without a doubt, the black tape hides ///M 335i

Good catch. Perhaps you are correct. Or maybe even M340i.

[advantage20]

A while back, BMW presented a F20 1 Series show-car with ///M Performance esthetic accessories, including black striping on hood and hatch, just like like on the recently leaked ///M335i (picture above). But that F20 was just a 120d...








Will these purely esthetic ///M Performance accessories (stickers, alcantara wheel, etc.) also be available on regular F10, F20, F30... like some kind of ///M+ Package, or will they henceforth only be offered on the distinct ///M Performance range (i.e. ///M135, ///M335i, ///M550d...)?
If you can get a 116i looking like an ///M135i, isn't that watering down the ///M Performance range itself?

[onkloud9]

Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance

Its why you never see VW or Audi on Ward's 10 best engines.

Audi has won three years in a row with their 3.0TFSI (supercharged).

Link

Great business sense by BMW, I can't wait to see these models, especially the diesel x-drive 5 series. I don't see the reason to get up in arms about the names or dilution, they will still be wonderful cars to drive and enjoy.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by advantage20

A while back, BMW presented a F20 1 Series show-car with ///M Performance esthetic accessories, including black striping on hood and hatch, just like like on the recently leaked ///M335i (picture above). But that F20 was just a 120d...

So will these purely esthetic ///M Performance accessories (stickers, alcantara wheel, etc.) also be available on regular F10, F20, F30... or will they henceforth only be offered on the distinct ///M Performance range (i.e. ///M135, ///M335i, ///M550d...)?? If you can get a 116i looking like a ///M335i, isn't that a watering down the ///M Performance range itself?

I think its pretty certain that BMW will continue to offer "BMW Performance" parts as accessories. The car you included pictures of is merely a show car to display some of those parts.

Will the new "M Performance" line of vehicles use some of those exact same parts straight from the factory? Maybe. In fact, I'd say probably. Will the M Performance vehicles also use some of their own bespoken parts? I'd say that's a good bet as well, but certainly not nearly as many as a "proper" M vehicle like an M3 or M5 does.