[goj]

It's all advertising. Guess what bmw doesn't need it anymore. I get steering feel is a hot subject with enthusiasts and rightly so but the whole demise of the 3series seems to be equated to steering feel.

Also not one review I have seen has the m2 lose to rs3. So that is weird.

What's interesting to me is how different the Euro view bmw versus US. Euro publications are so much more positive especially about F30!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by goj

....What's interesting to me is how different the Euro view bmw versus US. Euro publications are so much more positive especially about F30!

Yes, we see it completely different over here in the UK. Europe is in a different place to the USA for current motoring needs, requirements and legislation.

F30 is still the car that offers the best package for most users buying into the segment. Audi and Mercedes are still further down the list. Alfa is a specialist choice over here, doesn't matter how it drives, has too much baggage/history to be taken seriously as a car to own. Even the Jaguar XE, (which is gauged as the better driver focused car), having the edge on steering and handling, is never going to take many sales away from BMW, as it doesn't offer the best package.

I agree the bread and butter models are not so driver focused as previous generations, but is that really so negative? BMW knows what it is doing to satisfy the demands of drivers in 2017. Their cars have evolved with the times and market. They offer a 'package' which users are rating top of the heap. The auto mags/reviews over here reflect that fact. Hardly anyone will buy/lease a car based on the steering feel.

We are in a different place, even motoring itself is not the same as 20 years ago. Running costs, environmental issues, CO2 outputs, congestion, poor roads, expectations in technology and communication systems, efficiency, emissions, easy to drive, must satisfy both male and female drivers, etc., etc.

It is one reason drivers want light steering, easy, relaxing, little negative feedback. Drivers want steering precision, but not the steering weight of yesteryear. Plus more are looking to the automated systems, like park assist.

For many, motoring is more a necessity than a pleasure, many youngsters are not so interested, or involved. Less young folks are getting a driver's license these days. All this has an impact on what users want in a car, premium cars, driver focused cars included.

Even M-car users want all the luxuries and comforts, of course it changes the package, BMW provide what sales support. We can't blame run-flats for the 'softening' of the M-cars, they also are evolving to suit the current market demands.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

It is one reason drivers want light steering, easy, relaxing, little negative feedback. Drivers want steering precision, but not the steering weight of yesteryear. Plus more are looking to the automated systems, like park assist.
...
I agree the bread and butter models are not so driver focused as previous generations, but is that really so negative? BMW knows what it is doing to satisfy the demands of drivers in 2017. Their cars have evolved with the times and market. They offer a 'package' which users are rating top of the heap. The auto mags/reviews over here reflect that fact. Hardly anyone will buy/lease a car based on the steering feel.
...
For many, motoring is more a necessity than a pleasure, many youngsters are not so interested, or involved. Less young folks are getting a driver's license these days. All this has an impact on what users want in a car, premium cars, driver focused cars included.

First of all, nobody wants steering weight. That's why EPS with it's variable (by mode) weighting doesn't address the issue in the slightest. What people want is steering feedback/feel. That can be had in light steering, heavy steering, or medium weight steering.

On to the main point: the above is what people have always wanted. What has changed is that BMW used to ignore that part of the market-- they left it for Lexus/Mecedes/etc. BMW used to build cars for a specific market segment-- people that cared about driving. This was the toe hold they used to establish themselves in the market, build their reputation, differentiate themselves, etc. More recently, they abandoned that segment in favor of market share. There is certainly an argument to be made for them offering the best package (especially if you only care about having a car for a duration of a lease), but rarely (never?) do they build the best driving car in the segment anymore. The F10 is shit to drive, the 3 series is worse to drive than the IS, the ATS, or the Alfa, etc.

So far this strategy has unarguably been successful for them, from a profit standpoint. It'll be interesting to see how that holds up once the reputation they built up over decades for building "the ultimate driving machine" fades.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

First: Stop it with mods. General-interest mags don't care, and Joe Schmo prospective car buyer doesn't care.

Second: If you could care less what C&D thinks, why are you posting in this thread?

Finally: 'far from biased opinions' -- Wha-waaa? Opinions are biased by definition. What exactly are the alternate kind of opinions you're referring to -- (or: Proofread yo' self, son!)

Yeah I didn't understand that last sentence either lol. Far from biased opinion means not biased right

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Obioban

First of all, nobody wants steering weight. That's why EPS with it's variable (by mode) weighting doesn't address the issue in the slightest. What people want is steering feedback/feel. That can be had in light steering, heavy steering, or medium weight steering.

....

So far this strategy has unarguably been successful for them, from a profit standpoint. It'll be interesting to see how that holds up once the reputation they built up over decades for building "the ultimate driving machine" fades.

Does the mainstream market, (for BMW bread and butter models), really want the steering feedback/feel of the past? I question whether they do. I come to this conclusion from reading both technical development studies and reviewing user information.

Some of what enthusiasts value as feel and feedback is not positive, but includes negative disturbances. Steering 'noise' that many drivers just don't want to feel, and has little driving relevance.

Perhaps BMW are moving with the times, not staying/stuck in the past and losing sales. How many these days are buying BMW because it has a tag line "The Ultimate Driving Machine"? SUV, diesel, xDrive! Driving sacrilege? BMW move with the times, so do the users.

As long as models fulfil the brief of being a good "all round package", BMW will sell well. I emphasis the "package" part, folks live with these cars, some driving 30,000 miles in a year as a part of their work, they want comfort, relaxed driving and something a little decent when they get the odd opportunity to 'drive it'.

We do see things differently in Europe, a 320d is the volume sales 3-series model, it's a workhorse. A 3-series 4-pot diesel, pick of the range!

As the UK's AutoCar road test editor Matt Prior put it, “The 320d is in a league of its own on performance, economy and driving dynamics”.

Jump to the 5-series, the 520d is the pick of the bunch, we are in a different place than the USA.

I sense BMW know exactly what they are doing.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Does the mainstream market, (for BMW bread and butter models), really want the steering feedback/feel of the past? I question whether they do. I come to this conclusion from reading both technical development studies and reviewing user information.

Some of what enthusiasts value as feel and feedback is not positive, but includes negative disturbances. Steering 'noise' that many drivers just don't want to feel, and has little driving relevance.

Perhaps BMW are moving with the times, not staying/stuck in the past and losing sales. How many these days are buying BMW because it has a tag line "The Ultimate Driving Machine"? SUV, diesel, xDrive! Driving sacrilege? BMW move with the times, so do the users.

As long as models fulfil the brief of being a good "all round package", BMW will sell well. I emphasis the "package" part, folks live with these cars, some driving 30,000 miles in a year as a part of their work, they want comfort, relaxed driving and something a little decent when they get the odd opportunity to 'drive it'.

We do see things differently in Europe, a 320d is the volume sales 3-series model, it's a workhorse. A 3-series 4-pot diesel, pick of the range!

As the UK's AutoCar road test editor Matt Prior put it, “The 320d is in a league of its own on performance, economy and driving dynamics”.

Jump to the 5-series, the 520d is the pick of the bunch, we are in a different place than the USA.

I sense BMW know exactly what they are doing.

I'm not arguing that they know what they're doing, nor that it's not working well for sales. My point is merely that they're not doing what they used to do (and that that's why they're no longer winning awards for it).

Are people clamoring for feel? Some, not many.

But, that was also the case from 1966-mid 2000s, when BMW made cars that catered to that market. The people wanting feel then were a minority, as well-- the minority BMW built their brand upon. Throughout that time Mercedes, and later Lexus, made awesome reliable/comfortable/easy transport, for those that didn't care about feel/involvement.

[8bit]

The 1965 BMW 1800TISA, was the first sedan to lap the Nurburgring in under 10 minutes. Every BMW model made between 1966 and 1986, including the e23 7 series was successfully raced, either by BMW or privateers. Famous racing drivers owned them, Sir John Surtees, Ronnie Petersen, Nigel Mansell. These legends owned such cars, BMW 507 V8, e12 Motorsport, and e12 M535i respectively, before most people knew what a BMW was. Racing driver Tom Pryce wanted an e9 3.0CSi.

BMW can't be the company it was. To be commercially viable it must appeal to Mr. Mainstream and his good lady wife, partner etc. The Mustang and Camaro can lap a track faster, so what? Mustang and Camaro are struggling in sales and the Mustang plant, the only one still making the car, was idled due to slow sales.

Live in the past, die like Saab. Stay relevant, sell a SUV.

e3 2800 Rennlimousine

e12 Alpina B7 Turbo

Klassik 5-er

[stooker]

Originally Posted by 8bit

The 1965 BMW 1800TISA, was the first sedan to lap the Nurburgring in under 10 minutes. Every BMW model made between 1966 and 1986, including the e23 7 series was successfully raced, either by BMW or privateers. Famous racing drivers owned them, Sir John Surtees, Ronnie Petersen, Nigel Mansell. These legends owned such cars, BMW 507 V8, e12 Motorsport, and e12 M535i respectively, before most people knew what a BMW was. Racing driver Tom Pryce wanted an e9 3.0CSi.

BMW can't be the company it was. To be commercially viable it must appeal to Mr. Mainstream and his good lady wife, partner etc. The Mustang and Camaro can lap a track faster, so what? Mustang and Camaro are struggling in sales and the Mustang plant, the only one still making the car, was idled due to slow sales.

Live in the past, die like Saab. Stay relevant, sell a SUV.

e3 2800 Rennlimousine

e12 Alpina B7 Turbo

Klassik 5-er

Of course companies need to stay relevant and know what the public desires and is willing to pay good money for. However, that should not preclude abandoning whatever "thing" made their company successful in the first place.

In BMW's situation, they've hyped every model in their lineup as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and they tack M badges on everything. Car reviewers will/should judge a car on what the company is marketing it as, so if BMW is claiming an ultimate driving experience, it better live up to that claim.

[bvanlieu]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

Well personally I think all the "BMW's don't handle anymore, the steering is numb" talk is non sense. I also own a Turbocharged Mazda RX-8 and for the money you cannot get a better handling or better braking car. I have also driven E46 M3's and a few E30's, E34's, vettes, owned a track built CRX, etc.

And guess what? My 2011 335i with it's current mods handles just as well as any of those on the street and in the twisties, the RX-8 is the more tossable and would make more sense on track but not that much better on a fast track and which one was faster would really depend on the driver. As for steering, the EPS in my RX-8 is not so much batter than my 335i.

A lot of this is subjective but exaggerated IMO. The only downside to the newer cars is size and weight. And for 95% of buyers that doesn't matter much.

I don't disagree that feel is non-quantifiable as a unit of measure and subjective of course.

I very much disagree that its nonsense: its very real and is not that new.

For example, we are fortunate to have two E90 based cars (both HPS) and even they have radically different steering: unfortunately one, the E84 is cursed with MW's servotronic variable system.

The X84 is over assisted, too light, dampens small movements so you have to move the wheel far more to get the car to actually turn then I expect. I gather it was made for a type of driver with small paws and no muscles (shameful but true). Its the antithesis of sport packages (which this E84 has: that option should have been mutually exclusive )

Hop into the E90 next to it in the garage and you are rewarded with arguably heavy, but quite precise steering. A linear response with turning wheel and wheels actually turning. Imagine that.

We got the X1 used, so had to take as is but if this was my DD (its not, its the other halfs) I would not want to drive it and go look for a car that had the traditional HPS to see if it remotely feels like a 'normal' E9x

The F series is a EPS tuning exercise, and so far not so good.

- b

[Maynard]

Biggest problem is that what we call steering feel is about half of the 'V' in the NVH that they are trying to abolish at all cost. Call it what you want, Joe average does not want it. It will cause them to mis--key their texting, or spill some coffee.

This is sad, but you see it everywhere. It is like your favorite heavy metal band putting out a sappy ballad that appeals to the top-40 crowd. Even if it totally offends 100% of their fans, they only have a few thousand fans - when it is a hit with even 10% of that huge mass market, it blows all the other profits away, and they have to decide whether to 'stay true' or follow the money. Sadly, when they follow the money, they find out that they aren't that good at the 'top 40' and have alienated their fans. Now hoping that BMW does that metaphorical 'fall off the wagon and get the old band back together for a reunion tour'. At least they still put out the 2 series, and the M cars.

And just curious - any industry historians out there who can inform me why everybody just HAD to put in electric steering - I don't buy the 'better mileage' argument: why kill the defining feature of a sports car to save a few HP or MPG - nobody shops a Porsche based on it's mileage? Was it the precursor to autonomous driving? Or really just driven by the NVH mongers?

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by Maynard

It is like your favorite heavy metal band putting out a sappy ballad that appeals to the top-40 crowd. Even if it totally offends 100% of their fans, they only have a few thousand fans - when it is a hit with even 10% of that huge mass market, it blows all the other profits away, and they have to decide whether to 'stay true' or follow the money. Sadly, when they follow the money, they find out that they aren't that good at the 'top 40' and have alienated their fans. Now hoping that BMW does that metaphorical 'fall off the wagon and get the old band back together for a reunion tour'.

This is a great analogy. I am a rock music lover myself but want to choke the hell out of someone when they morph their style over the years to a pop band. There's no arguing the additional profits they'd rake in, but not staying true to what made them famous in the first place is frustrating for the original hardcore fans.

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by seetohey

This is a great analogy. I am a rock music lover myself but want to choke the hell out of someone when they morph their style over the years to a pop band. There's no arguing the additional profits they'd rake in, but not staying true to what made them famous in the first place is frustrating for the original hardcore fans.

That is a great analogy. Reminds me when I was in high school. My buddy was a Kiss fan and I was a Kansas fan. Neither of us liked each other's taste. Then the songs, Beth and Dust in the Wind came out and we both just about puked. Those two songs ended up being big hits which opened up their music to a larger audience.

[boostm3]

Seems like not all makes lose their soul when pursuing the dollars. Who wasnt afraid Porshe would lose their identity when they capitulated to the burgeoning popularity of SUVs with Cayennes and Macans, or added Panameras to their lineup? Yet, you dont see them being dinged for cowing to the almighty dollar. Somehow, they found a way not to lose their identity while pursuing greener pastures.

[seetohey]

Agreed, BMW needs to find that way too. The more I drive my M2, the more I think about how much better feedback I got from my previous E46 M3. The M2 is undoubtedly the faster car in a line and around a bend but the E46 gave me the fizz, as James May would put it.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by M2Nebula

That is a great analogy. Reminds me when I was in high school. My buddy was a Kiss fan and I was a Kansas fan. Neither of us liked each other's taste. Then the songs, Beth and Dust in the Wind came out and we both just about puked. Those two songs ended up being big hits which opened up their music to a larger audience.

:: Mmmmuh ... mmmurrrghhh ... Must ... n-n-not ... reee ... ply ... ::

:: ... carrr ... forum ... not ... muuuu ... sic forum ... ::

:: Kiss ... Bethhh ... Dussst ... nooooo ... ::

::SNAP SLAMMMM!::

Whew. Damn. My critic side damn near made it out. Gotta keep better control of that monster ...

... But yeah. Good analogy, though it's far more complicated than that on the music side ...

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Now hoping that BMW does that metaphorical 'fall off the wagon and get the old band back together for a reunion tour'. At least they still put out the 2 series, and the M cars.

Sadly most of the "band" has retired, died, or moved to other car companies at this point. A reunion tour isn't really in the cards.

[vinylengraver]

These guys can do it. 2017 R&R Hall of Fame Inductees.
Most influential German group ever.
True Icons to this day.

[8bit]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Biggest problem is that what we call steering feel is about half of the 'V' in the NVH that they are trying to abolish at all cost. Call it what you want, Joe average does not want it. It will cause them to mis--key their texting, or spill some coffee.

This is sad, but you see it everywhere. It is like your favorite heavy metal band putting out a sappy ballad that appeals to the top-40 crowd. Even if it totally offends 100% of their fans, they only have a few thousand fans - when it is a hit with even 10% of that huge mass market, it blows all the other profits away, and they have to decide whether to 'stay true' or follow the money. Sadly, when they follow the money, they find out that they aren't that good at the 'top 40' and have alienated their fans. Now hoping that BMW does that metaphorical 'fall off the wagon and get the old band back together for a reunion tour'. At least they still put out the 2 series, and the M cars.

And just curious - any industry historians out there who can inform me why everybody just HAD to put in electric steering - I don't buy the 'better mileage' argument: why kill the defining feature of a sports car to save a few HP or MPG - nobody shops a Porsche based on it's mileage? Was it the precursor to autonomous driving? Or really just driven by the NVH mongers?

A good question, probably as you said more NVH surpression than improving gas mileage.

The sad thing is that many great BMWs weren't M cars. No 2002 was a M car, no e9 coupe was badged as such. Now with increasing sales volume you need the "M" to be special because these days so many people own a BMW. Back in the mid '70s they only made 350,000 cars per year worldwide, it was exclusive. Only 15,000 cars sold in North America in 1974. In 1975 American models were carb 2002, 530i and 3.0Si. That was it! The last 2 cars had identical engines. As late as 1982 it was just 320i/528e/633CSi/733i.

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by 8bit

A good question, probably as you said more NVH surpression than improving gas mileage.

The sad thing is that many great BMWs weren't M cars. No 2002 was a M car, no e9 coupe was badged as such. Now with increasing sales volume you need the "M" to be special because these days so many people own a BMW. Back in the mid '70s they only made 350,000 cars per year worldwide, it was exclusive. Only 15,000 cars sold in North America in 1974. In 1975 American models were carb 2002, 530i and 3.0Si. That was it! The last 2 cars had identical engines. As late as 1982 it was just 320i/528e/633CSi/733i.

Now they have 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,i3,i8,x1,x2,x3,x4,x5,x6,x7. Not to mention the so-called "M" and Alpina models...

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

:: Mmmmuh ... mmmurrrghhh ... Must ... n-n-not ... reee ... ply ... ::

:: ... carrr ... forum ... not ... muuuu ... sic forum ... ::

:: Kiss ... Bethhh ... Dussst ... nooooo ... ::

::SNAP SLAMMMM!::

Whew. Damn. My critic side damn near made it out. Gotta keep better control of that monster ...

... But yeah. Good analogy, though it's far more complicated than that on the music side ...

Sorry, but the two posts above had already gone there so why not wale on everyone then.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Biggest problem is that what we call steering feel is about half of the 'V' in the NVH that they are trying to abolish at all cost. Call it what you want, Joe average does not want it. It will cause them to mis--key their texting, or spill some coffee.

....

And just curious - any industry historians out there who can inform me why everybody just HAD to put in electric steering - I don't buy the 'better mileage' argument: why kill the defining feature of a sports car to save a few HP or MPG - nobody shops a Porsche based on it's mileage? Was it the precursor to autonomous driving? Or really just driven by the NVH mongers?

Your comment on the 'V' in NVH is so valid, most users don't want the negative side of 'V'. We even read its criticisms on BMW forums. Most drivers don't need high levels of feedback, certainly not on their average daily drives. Even those who love 'feedback', it's questionable it actually helps them judge the grip limits. Too may other factors involved, that steering feedback is often overrated as 'the' means to judge limits.


As to why we have to have EPS. Again a European view. Legislation, penalties for manufacturers, if they don't meet emission targets. Costs to users, taxation on CO2 ratings. Cutting emissions by a couple of grams can mean big savings in running cars in Europe.

We can't look at BMW's EPS in isolation. The whole BMW Efficient Dynamics thing, which includes EPS, stop-start, energy management, coast function, etc., all add up and make a big difference in taxation bandings over here.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

As long as models fulfil the brief of being a good "all round package", BMW will sell well. I emphasis the "package" part, folks live with these cars, some driving 30,000 miles in a year as a part of their work, they want comfort, relaxed driving and something a little decent when they get the odd opportunity to 'drive it'.

We do see things differently in Europe, a 320d is the volume sales 3-series model, it's a workhorse. A 3-series 4-pot diesel, pick of the range!

As the UK's AutoCar road test editor Matt Prior put it, “The 320d is in a league of its own on performance, economy and driving dynamics”.

Jump to the 5-series, the 520d is the pick of the bunch, we are in a different place than the USA.

I sense BMW know exactly what they are doing.

I was in Germany earlier this year and did a road trip. My rental car was a 2017 manual transmission 320D with sport package and cloth seats (you never see cloth seats in BMW in the USA). I felt the car was perfect for long distance driving on the autobahn and I saved a lot in fuel costs as well. I drove over 1500 miles in a week all around Germany and the Nurburgring. The power was lacking but otherwise it was a pleasant car to drive. Definitely much more fun to drive than a regular front wheel drive economy car even with the vague steering. Since I spent most of the time on the autobahn, I didn't care about the steering much at all. In city centers, it was easy to drive through narrow streets and park. I can see why it is so great in Europe for the kind of regular driving people do every day.