[Andrew115]

Ouch. the 7 series takes their number 1 spot.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk4...-bmw-7-series/

1. BMW 7 Series

BMW’s flagship sedan seems to have lost its edge in recent years. It’s wrapped in languid styling and just doesn’t feel as sporty as it did in earlier renditions; an odd product lineup includes an expensive and not especially efficient gas-electric hybrid model. Consumer Reports takes the 7 Series to task for being “a ponderous, technology-laden vehicle with ungainly handling,” and is included in the publication’s lists of lowest-scoring cars, worst overall values and most expensive operating costs in its class. Not to pile on, but it also gets a rock-bottom resale value rating from ALG and a below average performance score from J.D. Power.

[GrantE83]

Can't say I'm suprised.

[SCOTT26]

Its an old article relating to the F01 7er in which the all new 7er eclipses that car.

[buddalun]

It all started with Bangle...

[imserious]

Bangle influenced some great designs (Z4, M3 ) and for better or worse influenced all of cardom design wise.

But agreed. The 7 series post bangle was a disaster. E38 managed to look athletic and tight even for a large sedan.

[C5driver]

Gary? Gary?

[rr006rbc]

The first generation 2009 750Li and 750i were tragic..this I can attest to.

[Outrun]

I read the article and wasn't surprised...I doubt it will hurt sales though. My impression is that 7 series sell based on it's luxury status and the "prestige" factor....not because of great handling, stellar performance, or exciting body design.

[Efthreeoh]

BMW sells about 10,000 7-series a year in the USA, who gives a shit.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Its an old article relating to the F01 7er in which the all new 7er eclipses that car.

The point still being the F01 7-Series sucks...

So here are some quotes from Car and Driver on the new 7-series:

"The brakes are strong and progressive, but the pedal is rather soft—and got softer as the laps progressed. The steering is responsive and linear but light on feel, which engineers tell us is intentional, as the typical 7-series customer finds the little twitches and tugs emblematic of good steering to be annoying. Makes sense to us: Long-wheelbase luxury barges are parked on the other side of the pit wall. Even this one was competent but not thrilling. It will do what the driver asks of it, but we never stopped wondering why we were asking it to do those things."

"In Comfort Plus, the squishiest of the suspension settings, the 7-series surrenders to a surprisingly Lincoln-like float, heeling over in turns and generally betraying all of the brand’s core beliefs."

"We have seen the future, and it is frivolous."

So these car behaviors are what Cadillac once offered as the standard offering for its sedans, light and numb steering and soft suspension; Lexus provides the same as does Mercedes. Maybe these companies had it right in the first place...

By using carbon fiber reinforcements in various places in the chassis, BMW was able to drop 190 pounds total from the new 7 as compared to the old F01 chassis (actually only 88 pounds from the body-in-white). GM managed to drop 370 pounds total vehicle weight from the new Volt vs. the Gen I version. The Volt is not near the size of the 7 Series (i.e. less mass to start with to remove) and uses zero carbon fiber. BMW increased the MSRP of the new 7, GM reduced the MSRP of the Volt Gen II. I'm not comparing the Volt to the 7 obviously, but I am making example of engineering prowess; BMW doesn't own it exclusively is the point.

And just to be a bit more of an ass... here's some news about the Cadillac CT6 from Car and Driver (sorry it's raining here today - nothing else to do...)

"Impressively, the CT6’s body is 44 pounds lighter than the CTS’s, according to Mack. That’s thanks to a determined program to “lightweight” the car. Yes, Cadillac uses lightweight as a verb. GM employs 13 aluminum structural castings plus stamped-aluminum bodywork to get there. The company takes an agnostic approach to materials, however, using a fair amount of steel in the passenger cell for its superior sound-deadening properties, says Mack, adding that an aluminum structure would require so much insulation that the weight savings would be minimal. Because the new car will carry more standard equipment than the CTS, its curb weight should wind up about the same as the smaller car’s, at something like 3900 pounds."

GM increased the CT6's wheelbase by 7.8 inches over the CTS (platform) and reduced the overall weight between the two versions of the chassis, the CT6 being lighter than the shorter CTS. All without using carbon fiber and the resultant expense of it. And please don't confuse the carbon fiber used in aircraft and race cars to that of "low-cost" high-rate production parts used in the new 7. The new 7 uses "cast" CF sheets, not autoclave-cured (i.e. vacuum and nitrogen environment) high strength CF parts used in the manufacture of aircraft and race car tubs. Not all carbon fiber is the same...

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by imserious

Bangle influenced some great designs (Z4, M3 ) and for better or worse influenced all of cardom design wise.

You can't be serious

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by buddalun

It all started with Bangle...

Bangles designs certainly polarized.

Personally, I think he was an arrogant idiot who wanted to make a name for himself and shake things up. He certainly accomplished that goal, but not in a good way as far as I'm concerned. The 7ers under his watch were ridiculous. The E60 5er looked like it was designed by three committees that didn't talk to each other.

The new 7 looks great to me. It is finally rid of Bangle's influence.

[Squddie]

The F01 actually handles great, not just for a car its size. The one I drove was better than even a 6-series, not to mention the average F10.

Reliability of the F01 is for sure better than the E65, if it wasn't for everybody's N63 not-a-recall recall it would be reasonable.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

Bangles designs certainly polarized.

Personally, I think he was an arrogant idiot who wanted to make a name for himself and shake things up. He certainly accomplished that goal, but not in a good way as far as I'm concerned. The 7ers under his watch were ridiculous. The E60 5er looked like it was designed by three committees that didn't talk to each other.

The new 7 looks great to me. It is finally rid of Bangle's influence.

[Lucky13]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The point still being the F01 7-Series sucks...

So here are some quotes from Car and Driver on the new 7-series:

"The brakes are strong and progressive, but the pedal is rather soft—and got softer as the laps progressed. The steering is responsive and linear but light on feel, which engineers tell us is intentional, as the typical 7-series customer finds the little twitches and tugs emblematic of good steering to be annoying. Makes sense to us: Long-wheelbase luxury barges are parked on the other side of the pit wall. Even this one was competent but not thrilling. It will do what the driver asks of it, but we never stopped wondering why we were asking it to do those things."

"In Comfort Plus, the squishiest of the suspension settings, the 7-series surrenders to a surprisingly Lincoln-like float, heeling over in turns and generally betraying all of the brand’s core beliefs."

"We have seen the future, and it is frivolous."

So these car behaviors are what Cadillac once offered as the standard offering for its sedans, light and numb steering and soft suspension; Lexus provides the same as does Mercedes. Maybe these companies had it right in the first place...

By using carbon fiber reinforcements in various places in the chassis, BMW was able to drop 190 pounds total from the new 7 as compared to the old F01 chassis (actually only 88 pounds from the body-in-white). GM managed to drop 370 pounds total vehicle weight from the new Volt vs. the Gen I version. The Volt is not near the size of the 7 Series (i.e. less mass to start with to remove) and uses zero carbon fiber. BMW increased the MSRP of the new 7, GM reduced the MSRP of the Volt Gen II. I'm not comparing the Volt to the 7 obviously, but I am making example of engineering prowess; BMW doesn't own it exclusively is the point.

And just to be a bit more of an ass... here's some news about the Cadillac CT6 from Car and Driver (sorry it's raining here today - nothing else to do...)

"Impressively, the CT6’s body is 44 pounds lighter than the CTS’s, according to Mack. That’s thanks to a determined program to “lightweight” the car. Yes, Cadillac uses lightweight as a verb. GM employs 13 aluminum structural castings plus stamped-aluminum bodywork to get there. The company takes an agnostic approach to materials, however, using a fair amount of steel in the passenger cell for its superior sound-deadening properties, says Mack, adding that an aluminum structure would require so much insulation that the weight savings would be minimal. Because the new car will carry more standard equipment than the CTS, its curb weight should wind up about the same as the smaller car’s, at something like 3900 pounds."

GM increased the CT6's wheelbase by 7.8 inches over the CTS (platform) and reduced the overall weight between the two versions of the chassis, the CT6 being lighter than the shorter CTS. All without using carbon fiber and the resultant expense of it. And please don't confuse the carbon fiber used in aircraft and race cars to that of "low-cost" high-rate production parts used in the new 7. The new 7 uses "cast" CF sheets, not autoclave-cured (i.e. vacuum and nitrogen environment) high strength CF parts used in the manufacture of aircraft and race car tubs. Not all carbon fiber is the same...

Whenever someone quotes what GM has done they immediately lose me. Just what Cadillac needs is a CT6 when the year old CTS is down 40% in sales, I guess they just want to totally kill it which is fine. Every GM car except Corvette is down in sales ytd as of about a month ago. Without trucks GM is DOA like Fiat/Chrysler, GM makes what 3% on their vehicles. Use another respected brand as an example and I might follow what your trying to say.

[Fundguy1]

Keep dumping money into the I cars and neglecting the bread and butter. Go BMW. Where's my CSL?

[Chihuahua]

Meh, whatevs. This article is old, and the 7 series hasn't done well with holding its value since the E32. No one buys a 7 series for the handling aspect either.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by C5driver

Gary? Gary?

Agreed. It's all Gary's fault.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Whenever someone quotes what GM has done they immediately lose me. Just what Cadillac needs is a CT6 when the year old CTS is down 40% in sales, I guess they just want to totally kill it which is fine. Every GM car except Corvette is down in sales ytd as of about a month ago. Without trucks GM is DOA like Fiat/Chrysler, GM makes what 3% on their vehicles. Use another respected brand as an example and I might follow what your trying to say.

Ignorance is bliss my friend. Sorry that I use facts to point out that BMW is not the king of automotive engineering. They sure make it sound great, don't they? If GM is so bad, why does BMW source transmissions from it? Why are the N52 coils Delphi parts. Whenever I see fanboyz touting BMWs engineering prowess I'm unimpressed. It can't make a high pressure fuel pump to save its life. Its direct injection engines need the valves cleaned every 50,000 miles. It makes a car that just overheats when the electric fuel pump goes tits-up without warning. It uses a oil change monitor algorithm that is purposefully designed to go defunct after 186,000 miles. It produces cars that the subframes crack, I can go on and on if you like. Practically every owner is scared to keep their BMW past the warranty period. To build the next gen Z4 it needs to get help from Toyota. Just 5 years ago BMW said it doesn't have to platform share between products as all other manufacturers do, now go look at the 1 series (a FWD mini), and Rolls (7 Series), and now the Toyota Z4/Surpra. I have a co-worker that has an E46 convertible he hasn't seen for 3 months because it has a drivers-side airbag that can unexpectedly blowup and send shrapnel into his brain. BMW won't let him drive it. He's not had it all summer - nice.

GM is the second largest car company in the world. BMW is like 13th. Their cars rank average to below average in reliability and build quality (about where GM is). 98% of the people buying a 5 or 7 series wouldn't know the difference if the badge on the CTS (or upcoming CT6) read B-M-W. The CTS-V smokes the M5. The ATS-V walks away from the M3. LOL

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Ignorance is bliss my friend. Sorry that I use facts to point out that BMW is not the king of automotive engineering. They sure make it sound great, don't they? If GM is so bad, why does BMW source transmissions from it? Why are the N52 coils Delphi parts. Whenever I see fanboyz touting BMWs engineering prowess I'm unimpressed. It can't make a high pressure fuel pump to save its life. Its direct injection engines need the valves cleaned every 50,000 miles. It makes a car that just overheats when the electric fuel pump goes tits-up without warning. It uses a oil change monitor algorithm that is purposefully designed to go defunct after 186,000 miles. It produces cars that the subframes crack, I can go on and on if you like. Practically every owner is scared to keep their BMW past the warranty period. To build the next gen Z4 it needs to get help from Toyota. Just 5 years ago BMW said it doesn't have to platform share between products as all other manufacturers do, now go look at the 1 series (a FWD mini), and Rolls (7 Series), and now the Toyota Z4/Surpra. I have a co-worker that has an E46 convertible he hasn't seen for 3 months because it has a drivers-side airbag that can unexpectedly blowup and send shrapnel into his brain. BMW won't let him drive it. He's not had it all summer - nice.

GM is the second largest car company in the world. BMW is like 13th. Their cars rank average to below average in reliability and build quality (about where GM is). 98% of the people buying a 5 or 7 series wouldn't know the difference if the badge on the CTS (or upcoming CT6) read B-M-W. The CTS-V smokes the M5. The ATS-V walks away from the M3. LOL

Ok then, what are you doing with two BMWs in your garage, get what you say is good....Caddy or perhaps a Volt?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Ok then, what are you doing with two BMWs in your garage, get what you say is good....Caddy or perhaps a Volt?

I have 3 BMWs. I've test driven both the Volt and ATS extensively and would buy either if the time was right. I also have a Hummer in my fleet, so I do own a GM product.

My main priority is buying a car that provides the best economical transportation (total lifecycle cost), so that means starting off with the lowest purchase price commensurate with a car that fits my driving style and comfort since I'm in it 20 hours a week, and decent fuel consumption. I'm not driven by brand loyalty nor brand image. I was even close to buying a Ford Focus Titanium at one point.

In late 2014 (August- December) I was close to getting an ATS or a Volt, but the E90 at 289K keeps running and is still economically repairable, so I pushed off a purchase. It is very difficult to find a manual transmission'ed car and I couldn't find an ATS with little options (i.e. a low price). So I ended up buying a Z4 Coupe in December '14 for $26K in preparation of taking the E90 off the road for a few months to go through a bunch of stuff on it. The issue is I drive about 35,000 miles a year commuting to work. I can't bring myself to buy a new $40K car and run the crap out of it, which is all I could find in an ATS without ordering one. My main priority is buying a car that provides the best economical transportation (total lifecycle cost) so that means starting off with the lowest purchase price commensurate with a car that fits my driving style and comfort since I'm in it 20 hours a week. The new turbo BMW platform doesn't speak longevity to me.

I also was close to getting a Volt instead, but it was dependent upon my office building getting charging stations, which they eventually did in late January. Had the building management been transparent about when the stations were being installed (they said in budget year 2015 - could have been anywhere between January and this December) I would have passed on the Z4 and got the Volt. To make the Volt viable I need to charge it at work and at home. I found the Z4 goofing around one day on CarMax. The Z4 was very low mileage 22K and too hard to pass up, even more considering it has the same basic drivetrain as the E90, so my maintenance and repair support is easy because I don't need to buy any extra tools or scan equipment.

Both are good cars. The ATS drives far better than an F30. The Volt is built very well and gets the mileage(s) it advertises (unlike some other hybrids). To be honest, a turbo engine'd car is not my preference for longevity, since I need to get 200,000 to 250,000 miles out of a car. BMWs do have their issues, but all the ones I've had easily hit 200K.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have 3 BMWs. I've test driven both the Volt and ATS extensively and would buy either if the time was right. I also have a Hummer in my fleet, so I do own a GM product.

My main priority is buying a car that provides the best economical transportation (total lifecycle cost), so that means starting off with the lowest purchase price commensurate with a car that fits my driving style and comfort since I'm in it 20 hours a week, and decent fuel consumption. I'm not driven by brand loyalty nor brand image. I was even close to buying a Ford Focus Titanium at one point.

In late 2014 (August- December) I was close to getting an ATS or a Volt, but the E90 at 289K keeps running and is still economically repairable, so I pushed off a purchase. It is very difficult to find a manual transmission'ed car and I couldn't find an ATS with little options (i.e. a low price). So I ended up buying a Z4 Coupe in December '14 for $26K in preparation of taking the E90 off the road for a few months to go through a bunch of stuff on it. The issue is I drive about 35,000 miles a year commuting to work. I can't bring myself to buy a new $40K car and run the crap out of it, which is all I could find in an ATS without ordering one. My main priority is buying a car that provides the best economical transportation (total lifecycle cost) so that means starting off with the lowest purchase price commensurate with a car that fits my driving style and comfort since I'm in it 20 hours a week. The new turbo BMW platform doesn't speak longevity to me.

I also was close to getting a Volt instead, but it was dependent upon my office building getting charging stations, which they eventually did in late January. Had the building management been transparent about when the stations were being installed (they said in budget year 2015 - could have been anywhere between January and this December) I would have passed on the Z4 and got the Volt. To make the Volt viable I need to charge it at work and at home. I found the Z4 goofing around one day on CarMax. The Z4 was very low mileage 22K and too hard to pass up, even more considering it has the same basic drivetrain as the E90, so my maintenance and repair support is easy because I don't need to buy any extra tools or scan equipment.

Both are good cars. The ATS drives far better than an F30. The Volt is built very well and gets the mileage(s) it advertises (unlike some other hybrids). To be honest, a turbo engine'd car is not my preference for longevity, since I need to get 200,000 to 250,000 miles out of a car. BMWs do have their issues, but all the ones I've had easily hit 200K.

I agree with you on the brand loyalty part. I have various brand in my garage and BMW happens to be two of them. I do however look for workmanship and what a car is capable to do for me. I've had GM cars in the past and due to some poor workmanship and lousy dealer service decided not to get another one. I too test drove the ATS and found the F30 to be superior in every aspect (free four year maintanance one of them), and to this day I haven't had a single issue with it. Now I don't drive as much as you do but driving a car that makes me feel good while I drive it matters to me. Saving gas, not so much.. But to each it's own I guess.