[Year's_End]

I was just talking to a friend about this. We were discussing how cars have become faster and faster as the hp wars rage on, and I've come to realize that many carmakers (including BMW) are losing a grasp on making cars that are fun to drive. I hope that there'll be some sort of weight war that comes to realization in the future. Maybe there'll be a breakthrough...maybe not. It's just surprising to see that 3,000 pounds is relatively light for a car nowadays.

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

I was just talking to a friend about this. We were discussing how cars have become faster and faster as the hp wars rage on, and I've come to realize that many carmakers (including BMW) are losing a grasp on making cars that are fun to drive. I hope that there'll be some sort of weight war that comes to realization in the future. Maybe there'll be a breakthrough...maybe not. It's just surprising to see that 3,000 pounds is relatively light for a car nowadays.

that would be nice..that's one of the things that GM has always gotten right with the Corvette. I think I remember reading that the new Corvette is just about the same weight as one from 30 years ago despite all the newer things that's been added to it. BMW really needs to figure out how to do that before we're looking at a 4,000 lbs M3 and talking about how it was great when it was only 3,400-3,500 lbs....

[Year's_End]

Exactly.

And I'm also concerned about these daily supercars. The extent to which we can actually use them daily diminishes greatly to the point that owning one is merely an act of superficial social superiority.

[FirstClass]

Lotus is quite light. The Z06 and GT-R are DDable supercars. I'd rock an Enzo Ferrari to work every day though if I could afford it, I'm weird like that. Or an Atom, I really don't give a damn about comfort.

[Year's_End]

The Z06 is an example of a supercar done right, but then again, how usable is its power? The best example of a fun lightweight car is, obviously, any current Lotus. My dad was looking into getting some sort of crazy super performing car, but he's decided to go with an Aston...like a Vantage or something. We had a DB9 for a weekend. Lemme tell ya, I drove it and the experience was absolutely mediocre at best; heavy, uncommunicative, you name it. Looks were about all that it had going for it.
Then my dad got invited to do a track day at Sebring with a couple of Vantages. Turns out those things are fun to drive. He might get one of those or maybe a DBS, depending on how it goes. Anyways, to cut a long story short, he's not thinking about any hyper performing cars anymore because the performance isn't usable on the street. Instead he's thinking about something along the lines of a T-Rex. Anyone heard of those?

[martieg]

Buy the 135i next time (it's lighter with the same engine as the 3 series).

Car manufacturers do only one thing (and if you'd be the company's owner you'd be pleased with this approach) - making money.

How to make money? Find a consumer target, find what they want, design something that would please them and manufacture it, and then try to sell it to them. BMW is making what most consumers want.

Blame the consumers....

[Year's_End]

This is true. Automotive consumers as a whole tend to want things bigger, faster, and more technologically advanced with each iteration. While this isn't technically a bad thing when viewed from a whole, it's hurting the enthusiasts. Take a look at the Accord (hell, look at the 3)...it's grown to a full-size sedan. That thing is COLOSSAL on the roads. The problem is that the competition has to make their car have one more cubic inch of legroom, headroom, you name it, and then then the others have to one-up said brand. It's just a vicious, never-ending cycle.

It has to stop...I mean...seriously. How big can cars get? There has to be a point where it'll plane out. Look at the 7. Now look at the Concept CS. To think that the CS will be plenty longer than the current 7 is pretty hard to believe, you know? Well, how much bigger can it possibly get? What will happen after the CS?

Same goes for horsepower. We have Camrys and Altimas with 270hp...absolutely ridiculous if you ask me. It's going to get to the point where it's going to be less about power and more about efficiency. The N54 is a good trend setter for this imo. It's capable of power and efficiency. Another good example is Chevy's LS7 found in the Z06. That thing gets ridiculous mpg.

More companies need to adopt their own version of the term "efficient dynamics".

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Instead he's thinking about something along the lines of a T-Rex. Anyone heard of those?

Would it be a daily? I doubt it right? These things are fun to drive but you need to have a motorcycle license (at least here in California).

Would he maybe consider an M5/M6? Although the V10 eats gas like pac man!

[doba_s]

Originally Posted by Carnage

that would be nice..that's one of the things that GM has always gotten right with the Corvette. I think I remember reading that the new Corvette is just about the same weight as one from 30 years ago despite all the newer things that's been added to it. BMW really needs to figure out how to do that before we're looking at a 4,000 lbs M3 and talking about how it was great when it was only 3,400-3,500 lbs....

I agree it would be nice to reduce some weight ... but IMO I think M3 is much safer compare to vet ...

I had MINI Cooper S and you would think that this car doesn't weight anything ... let me tell you ... it's pretty heavy car for its size. I guess safety is #1

[sdiver68]

In the Superbike world, first we had the HP war of the 80 and 90's for track supremacy, then the light weight war currently raging. The '94 Honda 'Fireblade' CBR900RR and '01 Suzuki GSXR1000 were both turning points.

So, you raise a good point and I wonder who will lead the charge? Or, is it even doable in cars with true mass appeal considering the comfort and safety requirements? Are we stuck with only niche manufacturers (Ariel, Noble, Lotus, Porsche to some extent) in that market?

I think we are getting closer to "maxed out" in terms of power when you take into account all the 400-600+HP vehicles in final development stages. For our real life US 0-100 or 1/4th mile world, we are already to the point where we are limited in performance not by power but the ability to get the power to the pavement.

No one talks about the Tesla White Star, the follow-on Sedan to the Tesla Roadster, but it could lead a revolution in and of itself in terms of both power source and weight.

[MCS]

I agree with this thread.

Also , as much HP the manufacturers are adding, they seem to be less fun.

i.e. I drove a friends Mustang 1993 5.0 and the HP/torque was a pure kick in the ass and fun. Seemed like the motor was on edge.

Driving a Merc AMG and BMW with comparable HP 300+ seems relatively tame due to all the electronic leashes. Even disengaging the DSC didn't seem to liven up the experience.

[F32Fleet]

BMW like other luxury car makers has increasingly had to to rely on more gimmick electro mumbo jumbo BS gadgetry to justify their premium price. This stuff adds weight.

[3onDubs]

I thought faster = funner

[TheoIam]

I also agree to some extent but this is what the mass public buys. For better or worse we are stuck.

Maybe the new mazdaspped miata or dodge deamon. Who knows.

I know that when I drive my 99 even though its not light its more engaging feel wise then my 05.

Plus the 0-60 crowd kind of fuels the HP wars.

[3onDubs]

Z4 M is pretty fun...

[ALPINE6SPD]

The biggest reason for added weight is saftey regulations. Its not only the car manufacturers fault. The other reason is all the electronics that everyone wants in cars these days. They have to do what sells and this is where we are headed. Go buy a pre owned miata or elise.

[3onDubs]

Originally Posted by ALPINE6SPD

The biggest reason for added weight is saftey regulations. Its not only the car manufacturers fault. The other reason is all the electronics that everyone wants in cars these days. They have to do what sells and this is where we are headed. Go buy a pre owned miata or elise.

+1

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by 3onDubs

+1

+2, and emissions equipment.

Save 30lbs with a lightweight battery
30lbs with catback exhaust
40lbs with lightweight wheels and tires.

By the way, my 2007 E92 335 is much more fun than my 2000 E46 323Ci - I think they went in the right direction.

[TheoIam]

Originally Posted by scottp999

+2, and emissions equipment.

Save 30lbs with a lightweight battery
30lbs with catback exhaust
40lbs with lightweight wheels and tires.

By the way, my 2007 E92 335 is much more fun than my 2000 E46 323Ci - I think they went in the right direction.

Well that is a HUGE power jump btw. Less so if it was 330ci ZHP to E92 335i.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by that guy nico

Would it be a daily? I doubt it right? These things are fun to drive but you need to have a motorcycle license (at least here in California).

Would he maybe consider an M5/M6? Although the V10 eats gas like pac man!

Nono not daily haha.

We looked at the M6, but he's the kind of guy that doesn't want to go with the completely understated look.