[TodmordenLad]

This afternoon as I was thinking of getting a petrol hatchback when I replace my F31 330D with PPK at the end of the year.
What a disappointment. I was expecting it to be fun to drive with great handling, given what everyone writes about it. 'Tinny' best describes it. A very ordinary experience indeed - no drama to the car at all, unless you count the farty exhaust note on the downshift, which gets tedious after a while.
Will have a go in an M140i at some point, which isn't that much more expensive than the Golf with my 'must haves' added (leather, audio upgrade and adaptive dampers) when you factor in the BMW discounts

[jpnh]

The DSG is the most disappointing part of that package.....any VW really

VW makes lots of vehicles that are spectacularly responsive when coupled with a MT

Shove a DSG in there and you need to kick the go pedal like a mule to get the DSG to do its job

You give it a little go and it does nothing.....give it a little more...still does nothing.....little more....nothing.....all of a sudden BANG it goes......really disappointing piece of crap that transmission is......EXCEPT when you're in sports mode and going down hill.....hit the brakes a bit and all of a sudden it wakes up and downshifts into an appropriate gear.......

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by jpnh

The DSG is the most disappointing part of that package.....any VW really

VW makes lots of vehicles that are spectacularly responsive when coupled with a MT

Shove a DSG in there and you need to kick the go pedal like a mule to get the DSG to do its job

You give it a little go and it does nothing.....give it a little more...still does nothing.....little more....nothing.....all of a sudden BANG it goes......really disappointing piece of crap that transmission is......EXCEPT when you're in sports mode and going down hill.....hit the brakes a bit and all of a sudden it wakes up and downshifts into an appropriate gear.......

I'll bear that in mind, thanks

[FriskyDingo]

Lol, that's funny.

I had the exact opposite happen. Had an N54 E90 w/ Sport Pkg, and wanted another 335i to replace it with. Drove an F30 and thought it was a massive letdown. Nowhere near as engaging as my car. A well executed car, but not very enjoyable to drive, and a poor value.

Branched out to everything from 4DR Cooper S, to 6th Gen Camaro SS w/ just about everything in between- STI, WRX, Mustang GT, Focus ST, Lexus IS, ATS- and nothing was really doing it for me. Tried a GTI after reading so much good things about it, and was a little let down. It was a short drive in heavy traffic, the sales rep wasn't good at explaining things, I used the manual mode, but didn't know it had the different drive modes.

Was still not finding anything to pull the trigger on, so I drove one again. A proper drive on back roads, tried out the different drive modes, etc, and was sold. It drives as good or better than many vehicles that call themselves sports cars, and does it for far less money and w/ way more practicality and efficiency.

I actually now work at the dealer I bought my car from and drive it, along with the R, regularly. You can go back on forth on the manual vs DSG all day, and there's no right or wrong answer. The stick cars are fun, but the clutch is a little softer than I like, and the shifter a little longer in throw and light in action. Plus, they start slipping w/ even a Stage 1 tune. The DSG is awful in normal 'Drive' because it's tuned so conservative, but in manual mode, it's great. Evidently a DSG tune makes them drive like they should in 'Drive'. I fell like the DSG fits the character of the car a lot better.

We deal in high-end stuff a lot- we've sold Lamborghinis and a 918 in the past- and after driving pretty much every form of 3 Series there is, along with the usual suspects- A4, C Classes, etc, etc, I don't regret my decision one bit. A year into owning it, it still puts a smile on my face when I get in and drive it. I don't know what else I would have bought to fill the role I needed it to. I'm already planning ahead to move up to an R, or buying out my lease and getting a stupid cheap payment on it and getting a used 911 for a weekend car.

But, like they say, different strokes and all that.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

Lol, that's funny.

I had the exact opposite happen. Had an N54 E90 w/ Sport Pkg, and wanted another 335i to replace it with. Drove an F30 and thought it was a massive letdown. Nowhere near as engaging as my car. A well executed car, but not very enjoyable to drive, and a poor value.

Branched out to everything from 4DR Cooper S, to 6th Gen Camaro SS w/ just about everything in between- STI, WRX, Mustang GT, Focus ST, Lexus IS, ATS- and nothing was really doing it for me. Tried a GTI after reading so much good things about it, and was a little let down. It was a short drive in heavy traffic, the sales rep wasn't good at explaining things, I used the manual mode, but didn't know it had the different drive modes.

Was still not finding anything to pull the trigger on, so I drove one again. A proper drive on back roads, tried out the different drive modes, etc, and was sold. It drives as good or better than many vehicles that call themselves sports cars, and does it for far less money and w/ way more practicality and efficiency.

I actually now work at the dealer I bought my car from and drive it, along with the R, regularly. You can go back on forth on the manual vs DSG all day, and there's no right or wrong answer. The stick cars are fun, but the clutch is a little softer than I like, and the shifter a little longer in throw and light in action. Plus, they start slipping w/ even a Stage 1 tune. The DSG is awful in normal 'Drive' because it's tuned so conservative, but in manual mode, it's great. Evidently a DSG tune makes them drive like they should in 'Drive'. I fell like the DSG fits the character of the car a lot better.

We deal in high-end stuff a lot- we've sold Lamborghinis and a 918 in the past- and after driving pretty much every form of 3 Series there is, along with the usual suspects- A4, C Classes, etc, etc, I don't regret my decision one bit. A year into owning it, it still puts a smile on my face when I get in and drive it. I don't know what else I would have bought to fill the role I needed it to. I'm already planning ahead to move up to an R, or buying out my lease and getting a stupid cheap payment on it and getting a used 911 for a weekend car.

But, like they say, different strokes and all that.

Thanks for your response, appreciated

If I've read you correctly, you're saying that the best way to enjoy the DSG box is in manual mode. Surely you do that by exception rather than as your norm?
I have paddles for the ZF auto in my F31 which I use from time to time. Most of the time, however, I let the auto do what it does best, which is to change gear automatically, either in Comfort or Sport mode
If I had to use the paddles to get the auto box to function well most of the time, I wouldn't bother with it in the first place
Before I cross the Golf GTi off my list, I will test drove a manual but so far, it's been a disappointing experience

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Thanks for your response, appreciated

If I've read you correctly, you're saying that the best way to enjoy the DSG box is in manual mode. Surely you do that by exception rather than as your norm?
I have paddles for the ZF auto in my F31 which I use from time to time. Most of the time, however, I let the auto do what it does best, which is to change gear automatically, either in Comfort or Sport mode
If I had to use the paddles to get the auto box to function well most of the time, I wouldn't bother with it in the first place
Before I cross the Golf GTi off my list, I will test drove a manual but so far, it's been a disappointing experience

The DSG is definitely miles better in 'Manual' than left to it's own devices. In standard 'Drive', it upshifts way too early and is too reluctant to kick down. In 'Sport', which is still auto, it's way too aggressive. It holds gears too long, and is too aggressive. It's fine for hard back road driving, but nothing else. I still use 'Manual' in back road driving, though.

As for how often I use 'Manual', it's pretty much 99.9% of the time. I only use regular 'Drive' until it warms up some, or in open highway driving, which is very rare. I upshift using the paddles, and when coming to a stop, just let the car do the downshifting. That's what I find to be most effective. It still gives me the control and response I want, but saves me the frustration of dealing with a clutch in heavy traffic- I live in the city.

My car is also a Perf Pkg. I use the 'Individual' drive mode which you can tailor to your preference. My setup is 'Sport' on drivetrain and diff, and 'Normal' on steering and soundaktor- the stupid thing that amplifies engine noise inside the car. I find it to be about perfect. The steering is a bit lighter than I normally prefer, but in 'Sport' the steering is just artificially heavy. Though 'Sport' does do well for really, really aggressive driving in lots of turns.

Maybe an extended second drive and playing with some of the modes might change your opinion. Or maybe not. I do know the prices over there are higher than here in the States. Over here, there's pretty much nothing that stacks up for the money.

[TodmordenLad]

Here in the U.K. in that segment you have a lot to choose from: Leon Cupra, Peugeot 308 GTi, Ford Focus ST, Honda Civic Type-R and RenaultSport Megane, all FWD, all offering something a bit different, but for similar money. The Golf GTi wins most acclaim for being the best all rounder, but it's rarely viewed as the best driver. VW discounts aren't great either
And then there's the BMW M140i of course

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Here in the U.K. in that segment you have a lot to choose from: Leon Cupra, Peugeot 308 GTi, Ford Focus ST, Honda Civic Type-R and RenaultSport Megane, all FWD, all offering something a bit different, but for similar money. The Golf GTi wins most acclaim for being the best all rounder, but it's rarely viewed as the best driver. VW discounts aren't great either
And then there's the BMW M140i of course

Yeah, you guys get loads of cool options in that segment that we don't. Pretty much all we have is the Mini, GTI, and Focus ST. Honda is supposed to give us a new Si hatch, I believe.

Not only is the GTI cheaper over here, VW offers pretty decent incentives on them, as well.

[Dackelone]

I'd vote for the M140i...

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I'd vote for the M140i...

Yep, the M140i has the best engine and gearbox when compared with anything else in the price change, and by a long shot. All the alternatives are 4 pot 2 litre. With discounts, you can probably pick one up for the same price as a Golf GTi - which is madness

If the looks were better, I'd buy one without hesitating. That said, it's my default option to replace the F31 at the moment

[davis449]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Thanks for your response, appreciated

If I've read you correctly, you're saying that the best way to enjoy the DSG box is in manual mode. Surely you do that by exception rather than as your norm?
I have paddles for the ZF auto in my F31 which I use from time to time. Most of the time, however, I let the auto do what it does best, which is to change gear automatically, either in Comfort or Sport mode
If I had to use the paddles to get the auto box to function well most of the time, I wouldn't bother with it in the first place
Before I cross the Golf GTi off my list, I will test drove a manual but so far, it's been a disappointing experience

This is right on the money. I remember my DSG as a miserable trans. unless it was in manual mode. From that to my first DCT in my former 135i was night and day. PDK is on a whole other level, IMO.

[FriskyDingo]

I think I may be the only person in the world not thrilled with Porsche's PDK. It's great in 'Auto' true, but I've yet to drive one where I wouldn't have preferred a manual besides the 991 Turbo.

[mremg]

I've said it many times before that the ZF8 is a far better transmission than the VW DSG. I don't have experience with the PDK, but the VW DSG in GTI is very droll. I drove a Mk6 GTI and the shifting even in manual mode isn't as instantaneous as I was led to believe. It was at best, similar to ZF8, but really rough - and not in a good way. Some automakers want to make the shifts more palpable to give you the illusion of 'mechanical' nature of shifting gears but this isn't like that. In low speeds (like stop and go traffic), when left in auto it is really jerky. The ZF8 on the other hand is silky smooth at any speed and shifts just as fast as DSG in manual mode.

Also, just like OP I've found the GTI especially with the DSG very dull to drive. The manual is significantly better and it really comes alive, but nothing like a MINI (atleast the R53/R56 variants, probably not the current F56). I often see GTI compared to a MINI, but tbh the MINI competes more with the likes of Miata/BRZ. The GTI just feels like a go fast semi-luxury car.

[angelr]

A dsg tune does wonders as you can increase line pressure, decrease lock up time and adjust launch control thresholds. Also, as mentioned the dsg will hold more tq than the 6 speed will, I've gone tens on stock dsg clutches with just a tune. When I drive my sons dsg it is only driven in manual mode, so for me it's the norm. That said I do enjoy the pure manual more but I'm trying to convince my wife to go DSG with her next one.

[davis449]

Originally Posted by angelr

A dsg tune does wonders as you can increase line pressure, decrease lock up time and adjust launch control thresholds. Also, as mentioned the dsg will hold more tq than the 6 speed will, I've gone tens on stock dsg clutches with just a tune. When I drive my sons dsg it is only driven in manual mode, so for me it's the norm. That said I do enjoy the pure manual more but I'm trying to convince my wife to go DSG with her next one.

To clarify, my post was about operation of the three transmissions in Drive and Sport Automatic Drive modes. As far as pure manual mode, the DSG in my former A3 and the DCT in my previous 135i and current Z4 is kind of a wash out. I think both are great. Largest difference being that the shifts change in the BMW with the push of a button. There wasn't one for my A3. The PDK performs excellently in those modes as well in the Cayman and 911's of various spec.

I've said it many times before that the ZF8 is a far better transmission than the VW DSG. I don't have experience with the PDK, but the VW DSG in GTI is very droll. I drove a Mk6 GTI and the shifting even in manual mode isn't as instantaneous as I was led to believe. It was at best, similar to ZF8, but really rough - and not in a good way. Some automakers want to make the shifts more palpable to give you the illusion of 'mechanical' nature of shifting gears but this isn't like that. In low speeds (like stop and go traffic), when left in auto it is really jerky. The ZF8 on the other hand is silky smooth at any speed and shifts just as fast as DSG in manual mode.

I would agree that it's better, overall, than a DSG. It's too close to call for me vs. the DCT.

Also, as mentioned the dsg will hold more tq than the 6 speed will, I've gone tens on stock dsg clutches with just a tune.

Now this is true. My A3 was K04 kitted and FBO. That DSG was STRONG.

[FriskyDingo]

Overall, BMW's ZF 8AT is better than VW's DSG. But it's all in tuning. The same ZF isn't as polished elsewhere. A $600 TCU tune fixes the DSG's shortcomings in Auto modes.