[davis449]

People were immediately building iMac Pro spec in PC after WWDC for $10K less. Part for Part.

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

I hate Apple because they're arrogant pieces of ______ (you fill in the blank).

Will not buy their products for myself (but have been forced to for my wife). I will however consider investing in them. I'm able to put my personal hatred aside if it means making money.

My M4 is paid for courtesy of apple and sirrius-xm. I got a bunch of em in 2008.

I dont use their products but business is business.

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by anglo

My M4 is paid for courtesy of apple and sirrius-xm. I got a bunch of em in 2008.

I dont use their products but business is business.

Yup, if all the sheeple out there want to pay premiums for the latest i-garbage, then I'm cool taking in the profits on that. By all means, buy away.

[Banana Hammock]

Originally Posted by anglo

My M4 is paid for courtesy of apple and sirrius-xm. I got a bunch of em in 2008.

I dont use their products but business is business.

Didn't know Sirrius was actually doing well. People actually use it?

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by pasghetti

Didn't know Sirrius was actually doing well. People actually use it?

BMW pays Sirius for every new bmw sold for 1 year and possible others as well for at least 90 Days. I pay about $5 a month so I don't have to launch amazon music every time I get in my car or verify its running and deal with hiccups when it doesn't work (though I've had more issues with Spotify.)

[Mikecom32]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Uh.. For that spec you get:

- Xeon W2165 ($2500)

Xeon W-2165 hasn't hit streets yet, and isn't even on Intel ARK, so we'll go for one better, the W-2175. List price on this faster CPU is only $1947 as per Intel.

Originally Posted by romemmy

- 128GB RAM ($1600)

No spec here other than size, so let's just go with $1600. It's definitely on the high end of market pricing (you can get 4 x 32 GB ECC DIMMs for around $1450), but it's not that far off of market price.

Originally Posted by romemmy

- 4TB SSD ($2000)

This is a bit too high. A Samsung 4TB SSD is at about $1450 street price as per Newegg.

Originally Posted by romemmy

- 27" 5K LCD ($1300)

This is reasonable for a fancy 5k IPS panel.

Originally Posted by romemmy

- Radeon Pro Vega 64 ($1500)

I don't know where you're coming up with this price. There is no public pricing data available for this card, as it hasn't been released. This is reasonable for a 16 GB workstation card, so let's go with it.

Thats about $9K in raw parts already (those prices above are street prices).

I'm coming to $7797, and that's using a list price for a better CPU. I think $7500 is probably a realistic number.

Originally Posted by romemmy

- workstation class motherboard with RAID ($500)

Since you quoted a single 4TB SSD, the RAID is probably unnecessary, but we'll work with it. A supermicro board that fits these is around $295 street price.

Originally Posted by romemmy

- 10GbE ethernet card ($500)

$500 for a single port 10 GbE NIC? An Intel X540T1 runs $140 and is a fantastic datacenter class NIC.

Originally Posted by romemmy

- USB-C ($100)

Eh, these run from $20-50 on Newegg for dual port cords, so we'll go with $50 to be safe

Originally Posted by romemmy

- workstation class Case & Power ($600)

A Supermicro workstation mid tower with a 900w high efficiency PSU runs a bit under $300

Originally Posted by romemmy

- wireless keyboard and TouchPad ($200)

Sure. Apple's touchpad is a great device.

-----------------------------------------

Grand total: $8,485 + OS ($100) + labor to assemble at $150 (call it 3 hours at $50/hr)

I'm not factoring in the Apple warranty here (needing to go to the individual manufacturers is a bit more of a pain), but I'm also not factoring in the complete lack of upgradability. I think those two cancel each other out.

There is definitely some Apple tax here. I will say, the design looks damned sexy though.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Mikecom32

Xeon W-2165 hasn't hit streets yet, and isn't even on Intel ARK, so we'll go for one better, the W-2175. List price on this faster CPU is only $1947 as per Intel.


No spec here other than size, so let's just go with $1600. It's definitely on the high end of market pricing (you can get 4 x 32 GB ECC DIMMs for around $1450), but it's not that far off of market price.


This is a bit too high. A Samsung 4TB SSD is at about $1450 street price as per Newegg.


This is reasonable for a fancy 5k IPS panel.


I don't know where you're coming up with this price. There is no public pricing data available for this card, as it hasn't been released. This is reasonable for a 16 GB workstation card, so let's go with it.

Thats about $9K in raw parts already (those prices above are street prices).

I'm coming to $7797, and that's using a list price for a better CPU. I think $7500 is probably a realistic number.


Since you quoted a single 4TB SSD, the RAID is probably unnecessary, but we'll work with it. A supermicro board that fits these is around $295 street price.


$500 for a single port 10 GbE NIC? An Intel X540T1 runs $140 and is a fantastic datacenter class NIC.


Eh, these run from $20-50 on Newegg for dual port cords, so we'll go with $50 to be safe


A Supermicro workstation mid tower with a 900w high efficiency PSU runs a bit under $300


Sure. Apple's touchpad is a great device.

-----------------------------------------

Grand total: $8,485 + OS ($100) + labor to assemble at $150 (call it 3 hours at $50/hr)

I'm not factoring in the Apple warranty here (needing to go to the individual manufacturers is a bit more of a pain), but I'm also not factoring in the complete lack of upgradability. I think those two cancel each other out.

There is definitely some Apple tax here. I will say, the design looks damned sexy though.

I know the discussion is about if a lay person can assemble the same system as Apple has put together for less money. But the assumptions being made about what it really costs Apple to put together a system like this is way off. I can extrapolate what the zero margin cost of these systems are based on my experience being around other OEMs. I can tell you the per unit cost of each of these system are going to be well under that $8500 figure.

[M_Six]

Apple moving away from user-capable upgrades is what burns my toast. My MB Pro has 16GB RAM and a 500GB SSD with the original 500GB spinning drive moved to the former DVD bay. All were easy things for me to do and far cheaper than having Apple build the same device for me. Those days are gone, sadly. My Mac Mini server has been similarly upgraded. Apple's decision to remove the user-upgrade path seems to be purely profit driven. I guess if I owned Apple stock, I'd be ok with that.

[rad doc]

Originally Posted by M_Six

Apple moving away from user-capable upgrades is what burns my toast. My MB Pro has 16GB RAM and a 500GB SSD with the original 500GB spinning drive moved to the former DVD bay. All were easy things for me to do and far cheaper than having Apple build the same device for me. Those days are gone, sadly. My Mac Mini server has been similarly upgraded. Apple's decision to remove the user-upgrade path seems to be purely profit driven. I guess if I owned Apple stock, I'd be ok with that.

Who cares. The overwhelming vast majority of Apple and really all computer users don't want to mess with upgrades. They know that.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by M_Six

Apple moving away from user-capable upgrades is what burns my toast. My MB Pro has 16GB RAM and a 500GB SSD with the original 500GB spinning drive moved to the former DVD bay. All were easy things for me to do and far cheaper than having Apple build the same device for me. Those days are gone, sadly. My Mac Mini server has been similarly upgraded. Apple's decision to remove the user-upgrade path seems to be purely profit driven. I guess if I owned Apple stock, I'd be ok with that.

I'm keeping my six year old MacBook Pro alive with an ssd upgrade and 8 gigs of ram. Running high Sierra like a champ! I can still go raid if I need to upgrade further. Brought it in 2013 as a certified refurbished Mac for $799.

[Mikecom32]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I know the discussion is about if a lay person can assemble the same system as Apple has put together for less money. But the assumptions being made about what it really costs Apple to put together a system like this is way off. I can extrapolate what the zero margin cost of these systems are based on my experience being around other OEMs. I can tell you the per unit cost of each of these system are going to be well under that $8500 figure.

Oh, absolutely. I'd guess at 13k they're sitting around 50% margin, if not more.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by Mikecom32

Xeon W-2165 hasn't hit streets yet, and isn't even on Intel ARK, so we'll go for one better, the W-2175. List price on this faster CPU is only $1947 as per Intel.

Sorry I meant 2195, which is what they use (18c). That is $2553 recommend price from Intel.

No spec here other than size, so let's just go with $1600. It's definitely on the high end of market pricing (you can get 4 x 32 GB ECC DIMMs for around $1450), but it's not that far off of market price.

I averaged it at $400/dimm. Assuming that Apple used the cheapest possible memory is unrealistic - for one they use 2666MHz, so slower dimms will be cheaper.

This is a bit too high. A Samsung 4TB SSD is at about $1450 street price as per Newegg.

I based this on 2 x Samsung 2TB Pro as I assumed Apple would not be using cheaper TLC-based SSDs.

This is reasonable for a fancy 5k IPS panel.

I don't know where you're coming up with this price. There is no public pricing data available for this card, as it hasn't been released. This is reasonable for a 16 GB workstation card, so let's go with it.

I used the cost of the Rx Vega 64 to estimate it. Probably underestimating it.

Thats about $9K in raw parts already (those prices above are street prices).

I'm coming to $7797, and that's using a list price for a better CPU. I think $7500 is probably a realistic number.

Since you quoted a single 4TB SSD, the RAID is probably unnecessary, but we'll work with it. A supermicro board that fits these is around $295 street price.


$500 for a single port 10 GbE NIC? An Intel X540T1 runs $140 and is a fantastic datacenter class NIC.


Eh, these run from $20-50 on Newegg for dual port cords, so we'll go with $50 to be safe


A Supermicro workstation mid tower with a 900w high efficiency PSU runs a bit under $300


Sure. Apple's touchpad is a great device.

-----------------------------------------

Grand total: $8,485 + OS ($100) + labor to assemble at $150 (call it 3 hours at $50/hr)

I'm not factoring in the Apple warranty here (needing to go to the individual manufacturers is a bit more of a pain), but I'm also not factoring in the complete lack of upgradability. I think those two cancel each other out.

There is definitely some Apple tax here. I will say, the design looks damned sexy though.

As for everything else, again, I did not go for the cheapest mid tower, or cheapest USB-C card, or cheapest 10GbE card. Also, yes, it does come with 1 10GbE port, but it also comes with 4 x Thunderbolt 3 ports, so I tried to factor that in with a more expensive card. Also, yes, the X540T1 is $140 from a third party Amazon seller, but Newegg for example it's $335. I haven't looked in to it, but I'd want to confirm the cheaper cards arent knockoffs, refurbs, or short warrantys. As for RAID, I included it because of the 2 x 2TB Pro SSDs. Note that Apple used pcie based SSDs so could could even cost more to get an equivalent.

Anyway, yes, you can get the price down by using much cheaper components, and I have no problem building a system like that (which I would since I can build and support it myself), but for the target market they are usually someone who cannot build it, and needs full support. As such a windows based or this iMac would likely cost very close to each other, especially if you consider the engineering for the form factor.

Thanks,

S.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by BayMoWe335

In what way specifically? He’s not going anywhere with Apple at an all time high valuation.

You know nothing about the company if you think Cook has done a bad job or have other personal reasons for hating Apple.

I am not talking about Apple from a business perspective. Cook is an operations guy i'll give him credit for that.

Apple use to be about innovation. They have been playing catchup for years now.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by Mikecom32

Oh, absolutely. I'd guess at 13k they're sitting around 50% margin, if not more.

Irrelevant unless you can force all vendors in the world to sell at cost. Intel CPUs cost probably $10 to make each, but sold at $2500. RAM probably costs $1 a DIMM, but sold at $400. Yes, Apple probably uses their huge volume buying power to get an internal cost at 50%, but remember the remaining 50% goes towards their retail stores, staff, free training, and of course the whole operating system that comes with it (including free upgrades).

Taking things in isolation is completely unrealistic. Also, I'm not saying this because I love Apple. I have a MacBook Pro, but also a Windows machine, a bunch of Linux systems, an Android phone, use Supermicro servers, virtualize on VMware, and I don't even have an Apple watch (so I'm not an apple "fanboy") - just trying to add perspective that you can't take their most expensive system with the highest end components, and then laugh at them saying they are gouging and acting like they are running off with 50% pure profit.

Thanks,

S.
Q

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

I am not talking about Apple from a business perspective. Cook is an operations guy i'll give him credit for that.

Apple use to be about innovation. They have been playing catchup for years now.

lol, apple have never been about innovation IMHO. They take what's out there and package it better. I guess that's being innovative, but they rarely ever come up with new tech..

iPod - other music digital players existed
iPhone - other smartphones existed
MacOS-X - built on BSD
Thunderbolt - Intel technology
Retina - they were the first to put it in a phone, but the concept of high density PPI was already in use in high end LCDs

Apple are very good at mainstreaming technology and packaging it to be easy to use. However, I do agree that Steve Jobs was far better at identifying trends than Cook is, and basically knew what product needed improving (and what would resonate with people). This role though had been taken over by Ives, who isn't as good as Jobs, but hopefully will be able to keep it afloat..

Thanks,

S.

[bimmer456]

Apparently I get $300 off through my employer, you should never pay list for a Mac Pro of any sort.

[Mikecom32]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Irrelevant unless you can force all vendors in the world to sell at cost. Intel CPUs cost probably $10 to make each, but sold at $2500. RAM probably costs $1 a DIMM, but sold at $400.

When you factor in R&D cost and yields, DIMMs and CPUs aren't high margin. DRAM (and NAND) are honestly fairly low margin. The market is INCREDIBLY competitive as it is generally sold on a commodity basis.

Originally Posted by romemmy

Yes, Apple probably uses their huge volume buying power to get an internal cost at 50%, but remember the remaining 50% goes towards their retail stores, staff, free training, and of course the whole operating system that comes with it (including free upgrades).

The remaining 50% absolutely does not all go to retail stores, staff, free training, and OS development. If this were the case, they wouldn't be sitting on literally $250 billion dollars of cash.

Originally Posted by romemmy

Taking things in isolation is completely unrealistic. Also, I'm not saying this because I love Apple. I have a MacBook Pro, but also a Windows machine, a bunch of Linux systems, an Android phone, use Supermicro servers, virtualize on VMware, and I don't even have an Apple watch (so I'm not an apple "fanboy") - just trying to add perspective that you can't take their most expensive system with the highest end components, and then laugh at them saying they are gouging and acting like they are running off with 50% pure profit.

Thanks,

S.
Q

I never said 50% margin is gouging. It's certainly not out of hand in the scope of things, just higher than other manufacturers.

There is certainly nothing wrong with paying that higher margin for a product you want. Hell, I've done it more than I'd like to admit. That said, sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to acknowledge that you're paying extra for the glitzy Apple logo is foolish.

[dzvero]

Hell no !

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by Mikecom32

When you factor in R&D cost and yields, DIMMs and CPUs aren't high margin. DRAM (and NAND) are honestly fairly low margin. The market is INCREDIBLY competitive as it is generally sold on a commodity basis.



The remaining 50% absolutely does not all go to retail stores, staff, free training, and OS development. If this were the case, they wouldn't be sitting on literally $250 billion dollars of cash.



I never said 50% margin is gouging. It's certainly not out of hand in the scope of things, just higher than other manufacturers.

There is certainly nothing wrong with paying that higher margin for a product you want. Hell, I've done it more than I'd like to admit. That said, sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to acknowledge that you're paying extra for the glitzy Apple logo is foolish.

For sure Apple do charge a premium, but what I meant was in this instance, they are not overcharging versus the open market as much as people think they are. Taking the number entirely out of context from the opening post probably makes most people think it's purely Apple tax (because most people can't fathom a desktop being worth $13K when the average cheap laptop is under $1K).

As for where the money goes, of course I didn't mean ALL the 50% goes to the operating system and other business costs - but a significant amount does. Their $250bn in the bank is just over 1 year of revenue for them, so in perspective, it's not massive. Also 80% of their revenue comes from iOS devices and app store - less than 14% of their Q4 revenue is from their entire computer hardware line. Appstore alone is more than that, and that's a cash cow with high margins. Basically all boiling down to Mac sales not helping them terribly with their 250bn warchest.

Thanks,

S.

[BayMoWe335]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

I am not talking about Apple from a business perspective. Cook is an operations guy i'll give him credit for that.

Apple use to be about innovation. They have been playing catchup for years now.

Wrong. They innovate in ways you either refuse to see or don’t understand.

[bimmer456]

Wish I could change the title to fully loaded. Anyway, just wish it had a smaller bezel like the iphone x. For $5K should have a next gen design, 30" 5K OLED display with HDR and super thin bezel.

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz

Is that 14 chocolate Koins?

Just under 1 Bitcoin, so cheap lol..