[julienjj]

Sorry for the wall of text, but this is an outrageous behavior from BMW that need to be brought to the enthusiasts attentions and the public in general, so bear with me

The new iX is marketed as a green car, yet it will be first product BMW make that is designed to be way harder/expensive to repair than your average F series BMW.

This is parts of the release notes for the latest ISTA release:



For those that may not know, ISTA is the software used by BMW dealers to work on our cars.

You may or may not know that when replacing most control unit (modules, battery manager, abs module, steering angle sensor, switches modules (for the idrive, or windows etc) it is requires to “code” and sometimes program the module itself. This takes the virgin components, write the VIN, and tell it your car has 2 or 4 doors, which model it is, the options you have, the battery type, engine size, the local languages that should be enabled on the GPS and so on and which behavior should be expected to make it work properly. This applied to every module that has coding, and in 2021 in the automotive worlds that mean pretty much everything electrical in your car.

Currently, your favorite independent BMW specialist is able to work on your car using diagnostic tablets and scanners that are usually multibrand, meaning they can code and program the modules in a varietty of car models and brand. Of course those scanners are getting quite cost prohibitive, going easily for 5000$ to 10,000$. There are also many tools that specialise in BMW’s, those can be easily in the 10,000$ but allow for much more advanced features, doing repairs that often BMW isn't even able to do with their software.

With BMW secure encoding, the coding data is authenticated using certificates. The BMW server sign the data with their private certificate, and the modules decode it using BMW public certificate. These things are designed to be nearly impossible to spoof or replicate

How does it impact me ? isnt everything on the cloud now ?

What BMW 1st achieve here is to lock out the average DIYer at home from any access.. which mean no more coding of feature of your liking, ie, getting the mirrors to fold using the remote, change the DRL behavior, change seat memory etc…. everything that was done by apps such as carly, bimmercode or even BMW very own ESYS. Forget retrofitting options on cars as well. Remember, working in your electrical car in the future will probably mostly involve replacing electrical components either for the interior or the drivetrain… as everything will be electrical. BMW would rather like to charge you 150$/h for doing those simple things thank you very much !

What BMW does is also prevent independent repairs shops from fixing your car. See, now not only they will not be able to change any module without bringing the car to the dealer, it’s highly possible they will not allow used parts to be coded/programmed as MANY car manufacturer started doing that the last few years. As the i20 iX is not released yet, I have not tried mixing modules yet, but BMW currently does not support putting certain used components on F series, 3rd party tools are often required. Doing this has a few very tangibles impact for you :

- Insurers do use recycled auto parts in most of their repair work after you have an accident.
The insurance premiums you pay are based on the average repair cost of your vehicle after a crash. By exclusing used parts, BMW will likely hope to increase the sales of their parts (which they make a lot more money on than the new car) but this come at a direct cost for you : Your insurance cost will rise and a by a lot.
as an exemple, a new steering rack for a BMW 340i 2018 is 2,793.93USD for a “new” remanufactured BMW unit. A used one can be found in insurance quality grade A, for a mere 500$ that will have similar mileage to your car.

- Out of warranty repairs will have outrageous bills, for the same reason as above.
also, BMW is now able to cut off non OE approved parts rebuilders, as they will not have access to the software needed to make the control unit virgin again. This will make it easier for BMW to sell you extended warrantied or try to steer the customer to buy a new car instead of fixing the old one.
- It’s incredibly wastefull. Imagine, as cars become non-economically viable to repair, or damaged in crash, all their computerized parts that are still in perfect working condition that would been sold at your local auto recycler, will now have now to be sent to the thrash. And you know, all the electrical waste is terribly hard to recycle due to how highly processed it is.

- Ridiculous delays for fixing your car. 2021 is a perfect exemple of this. As you might heard of the crazy chip shortage driving computer video cards price at well 2 times their MSRP, the car manufacturer are also having issue supplying their parts. Currently, there are a tons of parts on backorder for so long that BMW actually removed some options from the ordering process for 2021/2022 CARS. Repairs for a car after an accident or breakdown could be delayed by weeks or month waiting for a new part from Germany, while a perfectly good parts but unusable thanks to those digital locks could be sitting in a scrapyard, only a 5 minute drive from your home.



The 3rd impact of this is planned obsolescence. As those software system will be necessary to perform repairs on your car, someday they will become obsolete. BMW will have moved on their system 2.0 and those old server will someday be an extra cost that a corporate bean counter will want to slash, too bad if many owner still have their cars 20 years down the line.. didn’t they had the time to upgrade ? You don’t believe me, try installing some older pc games or software, see how well their license server still work ( PS… it doesn’t… try installing some older ubisoft games or even adobe CS3)

I cannot believe this, surely this isn’t legal?

Their argument here, is that BMW does offer the tools to allow to fix these cars to everyone.

BMW does sell access to the software, at a whopping 3600USD per license per year, + the purchases of their own cable ~700-1000$ or using an universal SAE J2534 compliant cable ~2000$. The BMW system is for a single session, meaning you can only be programming 1 car or accessing the wiring diagram on 1 pc at the time. I have attempted to see if they would allow for multiple account at a discount but they dont… imagine a shop having multiple bays, like at the dealer having to pay 3600USD per bay to BMW per year. Who’s gonna foot the bill for that ? You guessed it right, you.
By excluding the afforementionnel 3rd party tools however, they ensure cars can only be repaird in the way they desire, which is probably not in your best financial interest at heart.



You don’t believe me ? head over to www.newtis.info, a website BMW got closed for the very dangerous infraction of providing the information to fix your car without them dipping a hand in your pocket.
Tesla has the same kind of behavior, but since nobody is complaining, they just keep at it. Check Rich Rebuilt on youtube to get an idea of the ludicrous things car OEM can try to pull off.
If you are interested in the topic, check out this video and the related ones on youtube, they get it right.

Car Brands Are Fighting Your Right To Repair

The only way the manufacturer will stop doing this is by enacting laws that prohibit those behaviors as well as public backlash.


I strongly recommend each of you that like to enjoy their BMW for the long term, like to DIY or even are budget conscious to reach out to your local state representative as well as national BMW entity to voice your concerns.

[DenverSteve]

Since you're in Canada, wouldn't you be soliciting people to contact their Provincial Premier or Legislative Assembly? Have you already taken care of that for your ten provinces and 3 territories? Change starts at home.

[julienjj]

Originally Posted by DenverSteve

Since you're in Canada, wouldn't you be soliciting people to contact their Provincial Premier or Legislative Assembly? Have you already taken care of that for your ten provinces and 3 territories? Change starts at home.

Why do you assume I didn't ?

Everyone is equally affected by this. It's a global move by BMW.

[xlover]

Question, would access control like this essentially mean that BMWs will become useless to steal like an iphone?

Where essentially if stolen, bmw can brick the car and control any access to the modules to try to unbrick it?

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by julienjj

Why do you assume I didn't ?
Everyone is equally affected by this. It's a global move by BMW.

Because you didn't invite your countrymen to rise to the occasion. Think locally - first, then globally.

[julienjj]

Originally Posted by xlover

Question, would access control like this essentially mean that BMWs will become useless to steal like an iphone?

Where essentially if stolen, bmw can brick the car and control any access to the modules to try to unbrick it?

No, afaik there are no improvement for the owners. This is only to limit repairability outside the BMW dealers and in general.

[Bunnny]

Originally Posted by DenverSteve

Because you didn't invite your countrymen to rise to the occasion. Think locally - first, then globally.

Must be something about that White House we burned down...

Children aside, this exact move has been affecting farmers globally. If their machinery or tractor breaks down, they can no longer be self-sufficient and fix it themselves. The Right to Repair is a huge problem that's been growing without people noticing for awhile.

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by julienjj

No, afaik there are no improvement for the owners. This is only to limit repairability outside the BMW dealers and in general.

Or, from the other perspective, to keep unauthorized (read unqualified) people with access from messing up your car. The electronics on these computers are more complicated each model year. You don't want Yahoo Willie bricking your BMW.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by DenverSteve

Or, from the other perspective, to keep unauthorized (read unqualified) people with access from messing up your car. The electronics on these computers are more complicated each model year. You don't want Yahoo Willie bricking your BMW.

Lmao please. I think we all realised that's NOT why car manufacturer are actually doing this.

Can't believe people actually believe this.

Doesn't matter if the electronics are more complicated, it's still a damn GUI interface that all you do is click here click there and voila. Module is coded.

[cooolone2]

It's a trade restrictive practice and creates a monopoly... 2 things which are highly prohibited and certainly available for remedy through the courts!

What's next? Special gas fill shapes that only allow gas from designated pumps approved by the manufacturer?

DIY and aftermarket part use, let alone used parts cannot be restricted ... But as noted, it's going to take legislation to stop the practice. I'm some states, like California that don't want you touching your car, that's going to be an uphill battle.

It's all bullshit of course by a very wide margin too! I shouldn't need a program to replace an axle or steering rack, that's just insane! It isn't built in obsolescence, it's shaking customers upside down to empty their pockets, that's it! And quite frankly, is alienating a segment of their customer base that does enjoy working in their own vehicles, those who will move on if it continues.

Anyways, with the belligerence of upper management (see the new design gaffs) it's no wonder they don't care... They think they know best.

[Willywonk]

This reminds me of iPhone lighting interface and cable and the EU who finally held Apple accountable to change from a proprietary cable for the waste created alone. An additional shame of Apple keeping lighting as an interface beyond having to give Apple more m suoney is that Lighting is inferior to USBc. Lighting is so slow and with an iPhone 13 ProMax the camera can film in 4k and the files are huge and lighting is not fast enough where USBc would be such an improvement for moving large video files.

BMW actions concern me and for both DIY and enthusiast who want to experiment and make mods. There is a real potential security concern on connected devices, but if you bought the device/car, denying access is not acceptable and there needs to be a method to access your own device/car for some basics IMO. If you mess it up, that's on you but denying access is not OK IMO.

[Willywonk]

Originally Posted by DenverSteve

Or, from the other perspective, to keep unauthorized (read unqualified) people with access from messing up your car. The electronics on these computers are more complicated each model year. You don't want Yahoo Willie bricking your BMW.

When you mess with the settings, your own your own and I believe most if not all warrantees are affected when you do so. Its a simple thing and they can put a disclaimer if they don't already have one. Blocking a user access to something they paid for is not acceptable IMO. They can block you from thier cloud and other things where your actions could affect their security and that is fine. Someone or group will find a work around to keep it rolling.

[NickyC]

Everything man controls just gets worse.

It's why I've taken up backyard astronomy recently. It just puts everything in perspective for me, and makes my laughter at those who believe they can control things just a bit heartier.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by Willywonk

This reminds me of iPhone lighting interface and cable and the EU who finally held Apple accountable to change from a proprietary cable for the waste created alone. An additional shame of Apple keeping lighting as an interface beyond having to give Apple more m suoney is that Lighting is inferior to USBc. Lighting is so slow and with an iPhone 13 ProMax the camera can film in 4k and the files are huge and lighting is not fast enough where USBc would be such an improvement for moving large video files.

BMW actions concern me and for both DIY and enthusiast who want to experiment and make mods. There is a real potential security concern on connected devices, but if you bought the device/car, denying access is not acceptable and there needs to be a method to access your own device/car for some basics IMO. If you mess it up, that's on you but denying access is not OK IMO.

Should be lightNing as an electrostatic discharge.

only responding because you wrote lighting multiple times without correction

[Willywonk]

Originally Posted by Mavus

Should be lightNing as an electrostatic discharge.

only responding because you wrote lighting multiple times without correction

Thank you NickyC. You are correct that the Apple cable interface is LightNing being the cable and not Lighting. Funny enough is my iPhone did the autocorrect SP checking and it changed all to LIGHT-ing instead of Light-Ning. I believe i can fix that on the phone to stop that one but its a pain.

[KevinC]

Lightning cable came out in 2012. USB-C in 2014. Nothing generic existed (yet) to replace the original 25-pin Apple connector, so Apple developed their own solution.

Now, should they still be using it a decade later? Probably not. But it was hardly a crime to introduce it in the first place. Had USB-C already existed, they could have gone in that direction then.

[Willywonk]

Originally Posted by xlover

Question, would access control like this essentially mean that BMWs will become useless to steal like an iphone?

Where essentially if stolen, bmw can brick the car and control any access to the modules to try to unbrick it?

My career has been more than 4 decades in tech, semi's, systems and software. I worked on numerous automotive products both directly and indirectly with big auto companies so you can understand my perspective and how I formed my opinions on this.

Bricking a vehicle in addition to any and all electronic modules and devices is possible and this new coding scheme code achieve that and likely have an additional level of security. However, I do not believe that is their motivation or justification for doing this. It is possible to do the same today with the existing coding practices and systems. They need an architecture that allows the system to compare a "key" or some validation method. I suspect that BMW is doing it in order to maintain and secure a new revenue stream or monetization model. In today's times, most companies are trying to find a monthly subscription model. Today any company could add a small device that gets coded with a key that the system can validate upon boot or with some frequency to ensure that the device or the vehicle's system and components are "trusted devices". Such a system level implementation could also render any electronic component unusable after a theft and that could dry up the resale of stolen electronic BMW parts.

Be aware that the entire auto industry is pivoting to an extremely smart computing vehicle topology and moving away from CAN bus and to an Ethernet based ith many processors and they are moving away from CAN bus to Ethernet based backbones and communications across the vehicles. Its coming quickly in automotive terms with first models in 5 to 10 years max. Everything will have even more computing across the cars from engine functions, brakes, shocks and leveling, telematics and entertainment.

[Willywonk]

Originally Posted by KevinC

Lightning cable came out in 2012. USB-C in 2014. Nothing generic existed (yet) to replace the original 25-pin Apple connector, so Apple developed their own solution.

Now, should they still be using it a decade later? Probably not. But it was hardly a crime to introduce it in the first place. Had USB-C already existed, they could have gone in that direction then.

I took this OFF Topic as an example VS BMW (my bad but good comparison IMO) I agree on the origin, but as the phone store space blew up and files sized also blew up in particular for created content on the phone, I worked with products being launched that Apple made many apple accessory companies through some very difficult times and costs for Apple Cert that was absolutely about getting a cut of every sale and I saw that same 1st hand with Apple and the Lightning interface. Consumers ultimately paid more for for the solution. Apple tried to do the same with Home Automation or "IOT" as well and they shot themselves in the foot and slowed and hurt their success in home automation with the MFI certification and the entire process. If you are not aware of MFI and the process, read about that: https://mfi.apple.com/ BTW, I have Apple Phones and Tablets but not computing or other devices because it just works and I can manage the extended family's IT.

IMO Lightning should have been removed a number of iPhone back. I suspect that the revenue stream was too attractive to abandon it. There are some positive technical perspectives on dust and water resistance with lightning being very solid with, but now it is far too slow for the 4k file sizes.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Willywonk

I took this OFF Topic as an example VS BMW (my bad but good comparison IMO) I agree on the origin, but as the phone store space blew up and files sized also blew up in particular for created content on the phone, I worked with products being launched that Apple made many apple accessory companies through some very difficult times and costs for Apple Cert that was absolutely about getting a cut of every sale and I saw that same 1st hand with Apple and the Lightning interface. Consumers ultimately paid more for for the solution. Apple tried to do the same with Home Automation or "IOT" as well and they shot themselves in the foot and slowed and hurt their success in home automation with the MFI certification and the entire process. If you are not aware of MFI and the process, read about that: https://mfi.apple.com/ BTW, I have Apple Phones and Tablets but not computing or other devices because it just works and I can manage the extended family's IT.

IMO Lightning should have been removed a number of iPhone back. I suspect that the revenue stream was too attractive to abandon it. There are some positive technical perspectives on dust and water resistance with lightning being very solid with, but now it is far too slow for the 4k file sizes.

As an engineer, I appreciate that lightning is a better physical connector than USB-C. They should have updated the protocols and physical layer years ago if they were going to keep using it this long for data, though. I suspect Apple considers any port at all a legacy compromise and wants you to use AirDrop.

[zx10guy]

I don't see how Lightning is a better physical connector than USB-C. I've had a number of Lightning cable failures along with other people I've interacted with. What I've seen as pretty common is worn or somehow "burned out" contact traces on the Lightning plug and another Lightning cable where a corner of the plug/connector broke off rendering the cable pretty much useless as the plug wouldn't stay put in the slot of the iPad.

I've never seen any failures with the numerous USB C cables I've used nor have I heard from anyone else I interact with that has had any USB C cable failures.