[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Tesla and Rivian products are so good (on paper).because they're either lies and super shitty in reality (Tesla), or totally unconstrained in what they can do (Rivian). Rivian makes a 1000hp truck and SUV, because there's no EPA or CAFE to stop them. Any automakers could build a 1000hp vehicle if they were totally uncorked by emissions and fuel economy requirements.

Believe me, if there was nothing holding them back, all the luxury automakers would build 1000+ HP v12 super sedans. But they can't, because that would go against regulations, but if you use up electricity even faster and charge it off a coal plant it's totally fine.

Rivian and Lucid can’t jump the chasm - if they had better (more) service and sales centers, I’d consider them. Tesla has exploded faster than anyone could have imagined. I remember when I sat in the first gen model S at a sales center in a local mall- thought it was total garbage. Still is.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

BMW sold 2.55 million vehicles last year.
Tesla sold 1.75 million.

I don’t understand your logic. BMW can absolutely catch up to Tesla.

Sounds like Tesla needs to catch up.

Still, Toyota sold 11.23 million. Tesla Model 3/Y are volume chasers. Like Camrys/Rav4s.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

Sounds like Tesla needs to catch up.

Still, Toyota sold 11.23 million. Tesla Model 3/Y are volume chasers. Like Camrys/Rav4s.

Toyota is low cost volume.
Tesla was niche then high price then back to a middle market. The recent price drops were to gain share. But the price won’t remain low forever imo. It’s still not that low relatively excluding tax credits.
BMW runs a bunch of plays from mid market to entry luxury.

If BMW offers a competitive price point to the Y, they can absolutely eat into their volume. Tesla’s share is already falling. If you take just the Europe and US markets and exclude China the NK could easily catch up.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Toyota is low cost volume.
Tesla was niche then high price then back to a middle market. The recent price drops were to gain share. But the price won’t remain low forever imo. It’s still not that low relatively excluding tax credits.
BMW runs a bunch of plays from mid market to entry luxury.

If BMW offers a competitive price point to the Y, they can absolutely eat into their volume. Tesla’s share is already falling. If you take just the Europe and US markets and exclude China the NK could easily catch up.

Tesla 3/Y are low cost volume too. Why do you think Elmo changes the price more than he tweets. It’s chasing volume.


If you think BMW is chasing volume like the Y is competing with Toyota /Hyundai that’s on you.

Back to the NK iX3. I’m excited for it, and I don’t expect it to be a $40k vehicle. It’ll likely be in the $50-55k+ range. Just like the X3. Loaded with options and some “M” version, it’ll be near $80k. (In the US, and before the orange one imposes tariffs.)

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

Tesla 3/Y are low cost volume too. Why do you think Elmo changes the price more than he tweets. It’s chasing volume.


If you think BMW is chasing volume like the Y is competing with Toyota /Hyundai that’s on you.

Back to the NK iX3. I’m excited for it, and I don’t expect it to be a $40k vehicle. It’ll likely be in the $50-55k+ range. Just like the X3. Loaded with options and some “M” version, it’ll be near $80k. (In the US, and before the orange one imposes tariffs.)

You’re putting words in my mouth. The Y LR is $50k, so if they get this thing around $65k I do think it could eat into Y volume. I never said they were chasing volume. I believe a lot of buyers will come to the NK from other luxury brands if they execute this well. My hope is they do.

[Alpine Wait]

Am I the only one person on this thread that has bought several new BMWs and several new Teslas?

Shouldn't you guys be asking me what makes me pull my wallet out??

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Alpine Wait

Am I the only one person on this thread that has bought several new BMWs and several new Teslas?

Shouldn't you guys be asking me what makes me pull my wallet out??

I’m right there with you. Ok, I’ll bite. What makes you pull your wallet out?

[the_abe]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

I’m right there with you. Ok, I’ll bite. What makes you pull your wallet out?

Hookers and blow.

[Alpine Wait]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

I’m right there with you. Ok, I’ll bite. What makes you pull your wallet out?

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) all the cliches are true.

BMW was indeed the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' in my opinion, especially in the early 2000s and until ~2015 IMO. I bought two M3s, Active Hybrid 3 and G01 M40i. The BMW tech was even decent up until ~2018.

Then Tesla came out of the gates with the 3/Y from 2018-2020, and all the BMWs felt ancient in direct comparison. Yeah, the Tesla interiors weren't great, but the 3-series isn't an interior to fall in love with or impress any friends.

If you wanted performance, technology, "value", and low maintenance costs, BMW hasn't had anything compelling in the past 5+ years.

My best friend has an i4, so I know all about it. It's got one foot in the past, and one foot in the future, which is probably what you could say about all current electrified BMWs, save for the OG i3 and i8 (R.I.P.).

I used to think I'd always drive an M3. But then you try an EV, and it's hard to give up the instant torque and "direct" feeling like your pedal is connected right to the rear wheels.

Both brands have compromises in their electric offerings. But BMW just had fewer price points available to the buyer in the $40K-$65K range. Maybe now they'll be catching up with the NK platform.

I'm a car fanatic and love fun-to-drive experiences. Tech ranks high for me too. Which is why I swap between my two dailies: Model S Plaid and Model 3 Performance.

Maybe I can be lured back one day by the all-EV M3 platform. But in the meantime, I'm having a blast every time I get behind the wheel.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Alpine Wait

Unfortunately (or unfortunately?) all the cliches are true.

BMW was indeed the 'Ultimate Driving Machine', especially in the early 2000s and until ~2015 IMO. I bought two M3s, Active Hybrid 3 and G01 M40i. The BMW tech was even decent up until ~2018.

Then Tesla came out of the gates with the 3/Y from 2018-2020, and all the BMWs felt ancient in direct comparison. Yeah, the interiors weren't great, but the 3-series isn't an interior to fall in love with or impress any friends.

If you wanted performance, technology, "value", and low maintenance costs, BMW hasn't had anything compelling in the past 5+ years.

My best friend has an i4, so I know all about it. It's got one foot in the past, and one foot in the future, which is probably what you could say about all current electrified BMWs, save for the OG i3 and i8 (R.I.P.).

I used to think I'd always drive an M3. But then you try an EV, and it's hard to give up the instant torque and "direct" feeling like your pedal is connected right to the rear wheels.

Both brands have compromises in their electric offerings. But BMW just had fewer price points available to the buyer in the $40K-$65K range. Maybe now they'll be catching up with the NK platform.

I'm a car fanatic and love fun-to-drive experiences. Tech ranks high for me too. Which is why I swap between my two dailies: Model S Plaid and Model 3 Performance.

Maybe I can be lured back one day by the all-EV M3 platform. But in the interim, I'm having a blast every time I get behind the wheel.

I can relate to this. Went e46-e93-f80-model 3p-g80cx-z4&MY-g80 6MT&iX. BMW has changed completely in 2 decades. It’s hard to explain unless you grew up driving those cars. Anyway, they’ve done it to hit metrics and have a broader appeal. To me, and I’ve said this to my other car enthusiast friends, the M3 is a fantastic machine and probably the fastest production ICE with 4 doors under $100k, but I’d rather have less power and more feel. Hence ordering the boxster 4.0- I don’t know if I’ll ever buy another ICE M car. If the car is going to be numb, and if it’s used for commuting, just go electric. Make the weekend car a truly fun and lively experience. My Mercedes CLE53 has more brake and steering feel. That’s nuts.

That said, BMW makes the best SAVs on the market, after all they invented the segment… especially the iXM60, X7 but even the X5. They are powerful, comfortable, capable machines with plenty of driver capability - just lacking the feel for the sake of comfort and efficiency. It’s a trade off and one I’m willing to take for an SAV and family hauler. The sad thing really though about M cars is the lack of steering and brake feel. I’d love to have that back.

[ubercruise]

I have little interest in a BEV that shares a platform with an ICE car. The iX doesn’t share with an ICE directly which I like, but the NK is even more bespoke, which I much prefer over shared platforms like the upcoming iX5/X5

[baron95]

The largest car market in the world, and the only advanced market where all top brands can compete is China.

It's pretty obvious what is going on. Traditional European, American and Japanese OEMs are seeing their sales collapse in China.

And EU and US are so scared in their home markets that they rushed to put on tariffs.

The NK will be released 2 years from now. The Chinese OEMs are launching new products on a 2-3 year cycle. So the NK will be competing with the follow generation of Chinese EVs. Next generation battery, next generation motors, next generation inverters, next generation UI, next generation in chassis refinement.

There is simply no world in which the NK will be competitive in that market.

Will it sell in America and the EU, sure - the protectionist tariffs, brand loyalty, and badge chasing will insure that happens. But those are the second and third largest markets. The first is nearly lost.

BMW can point to having the best I6 ICE engines in the world. What will the NK be best in the world in? Nothing.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

Tesla 3/Y are low cost volume too. Why do you think Elmo changes the price more than he tweets. It’s chasing volume.


If you think BMW is chasing volume like the Y is competing with Toyota /Hyundai that’s on you.

Back to the NK iX3. I’m excited for it, and I don’t expect it to be a $40k vehicle. It’ll likely be in the $50-55k+ range. Just like the X3. Loaded with options and some “M” version, it’ll be near $80k. (In the US, and before the orange one imposes tariffs.)

All manufacturers change pricing to chase sales. The difference is Tesla has to do it with an MSRP drop on its web page. Franchise automakers do it though incentives and discounts at the dealer level and leave the MSRP alone.

[orkinos]

[1SleeperBimmer]

BMW, Toyota, and others are also making big investments into Hydrogen power plants. I can only assume that these designs will be able to be used in those vehicles. Electric vehicles, when considering the entire process of building ingredients them, their components, etc., not only require a lot of years to get to net zero, they also cause as much damage or more to produce when you factor in everything that goes int9 the vehicles, as ICE vehicles.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by AshwinLB

I think having this dedicated platform plus the fact it will have the NACS connector (formerly Tesla connector), it will have a real fighting chance to compete with Tesla. The only benefit Tesla had was its charging network and now everyone can pretty much use it with the introduction of NACS

Tesla has BMW in efficiency and Technology

BMW has Tesla in QC and Customer Service

Tesla’s glory days are absolutely over…

Tesla doesn’t have a clue on how to treat a customer correctly. They’re the worst when it comes to making the customer feel like they matter. As a matter of fact they treat their customer like absolute garbage…. It’s Tesla’s way,or the highway‼️

[mlanes01]

I hate the comparisons to Tesla, two companies with completely diff goals..... One thing that Tesla does that drove me crazy with my model s is try to save money literally on everything... Their future uses cameras and no buttons or stocks, has shitty ads systems and can't do rain sensing or auto high beam correctly.... I'm sorry but a few well placed buttons and redundant sensors make my life easier and make my i4 interior feel so much more comfortable and elegant. Also I'm very curious to see what the neu klasse actually looks like inside and out. One of the best parts about leaving a Tesla and going back to BMW was that my i4 looks and feels for the most part like a normal car and blends in on the road. I'm even getting used to the beaver teeth kidney grills. Great commuter car and I love it for what it is, hopefully they continue to remember their German roots and bmw DNA like how taycan is just a Porsche but electric.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I think you nailed it. People who are willing to have a car for nothing but commuting like EVs. They are already making enough money to afford 3+ cars, so being able to have an EV that they just charge at home saves them even more money commuting.

The average middle class or upper middle class or even lower upper class person isn't going to have a car just for commuting, while having other cars at home for other uses.


All that said, I think the EV industry will be better off without tax credits and without any sort of mandates or implied mandates (like CAFE). Then the automakers will actually start building the best products they can, vs the fastet to market ones they can. They'll start to realize that dedicated EV platforms are a waste of money, and the correct way to do EVs is a modular platform that works as a ICE, PHEV, or BEV without any reconfiguration.

I think you are vastly overestimating the number of “enthusiasts” buying cars. The VAST majority of buyers are commuters, not enthusiasts. They will drive sales. As you may (not apparently) have noticed, most new EVs can travel 300+ miles. In 5 years, most EVs will travel 400+ miles. In 10 years, most will travel 400-450+ miles and charge at 350kw+. The charging infrastructure (particularly Tesla V4 Superchargers) will be far more mature. This will essentially be the parity point (from a convenience standpoint) with ICE vehicles.

Sorry, but the idea that PHEV is the way forward is a pipe-dream. If anything, EREV will be more prevalent.

[Quadruple VANOS]

Skateboard battery designs usually make sedan ride heights look goofy. This appears to be no exception.

[JoeAyalaM]

Originally Posted by M5ddox

If you squint really really hard with your eyes almost closed you can see the design

Ha, ha, ha, Yeah, I see the BYD resemblance.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I think you are vastly overestimating the number of “enthusiasts” buying cars. The VAST majority of buyers are commuters, not enthusiasts. They will drive sales. As you may (not apparently) have noticed, most new EVs can travel 300+ miles. In 5 years, most EVs will travel 400+ miles. In 10 years, most will travel 400-450+ miles and charge at 350kw+. The charging infrastructure (particularly Tesla V4 Superchargers) will be far more mature. This will essentially be the parity point (from a convenience standpoint) with ICE vehicles.

Sorry, but the idea that PHEV is the way forward is a pipe-dream. If anything, EREV will be more prevalent.

100%. PHEVs are the worst of both worlds. Complicated and replete with compromises and you still have to plug it in to reach its full potential..

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Rivian and Lucid can’t jump the chasm - if they had better (more) service and sales centers, I’d consider them. Tesla has exploded faster than anyone could have imagined. I remember when I sat in the first gen model S at a sales center in a local mall- thought it was total garbage. Still is.

Tesla didn't take off until they started having a ton of 40kish model 3 and Ys. At that price point, you're competing with stuff like a Ford Edge, except now you don't ever have to pay for gas and you're likely gonna have more performance. Plus because everyone knew the model s and x were stupid expensive when new, some people think that a Tesla is a luxury car, so they think people are impressed by it. It didn't matter than the interior was a cheap empty piece of poorly assembled trash. It didn't matter that every metric quoted was totally fabricated, all that mattered was it was cheaper than buying a Grand Cherokee or Honda Pilot or whatever.