[CLTMDA]

While battery life and replacement may be a factor, the bigger issue is the charging network, or lack thereof, thereby upsetting supply and demand. While having the NACS charger is a plus with respect to the Tesla Supercharger network, the entire network is not being opened up by Tesla. It is getting better, but the main reason I got rid of my Lucid was not the car, it was the lack of a charging network in the southeast. The car was better than the M5 it replaced, IMO.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I think you are vastly overestimating the number of “enthusiasts” buying cars. The VAST majority of buyers are commuters, not enthusiasts. They will drive sales. As you may (not apparently) have noticed, most new EVs can travel 300+ miles. In 5 years, most EVs will travel 400+ miles. In 10 years, most will travel 400-450+ miles and charge at 350kw+. The charging infrastructure (particularly Tesla V4 Superchargers) will be far more mature. This will essentially be the parity point (from a convenience standpoint) with ICE vehicles.

Sorry, but the idea that PHEV is the way forward is a pipe-dream. If anything, EREV will be more prevalent.

I don't think that most people are enthusiasts at all. I'm just aware that people making choices with their own money aren't willing to put their money down on an EV as their primary car unless they have ICE cars for a backup. 300 miles of range sounds like enough until you realize it's really only 60% of that on a road trip because you're not gonna charge to 100% or drive down to 0%, then you have environmental factors, the reality that their range drops on all highway use, etc. and then you're talking about having to stop for 15-30 minutes to charge every 2.5 hours or so. Not a great solution. Add in people who can't charge at home, and you're dealing with a lot of people who aren't going to convert.

If there was a fullsize SUV that was an ER EV, I would consider one for my wife. She doesn't need more than like 5060 miles of range for most days, but we also take it on longer trips where it's current 450 mile range is a big bonus

EREVs are definitely the right way to do an EV, but I think PHEVs are the logical stepping stone for people.

[JMD]

Originally Posted by AshwinLB

I think having this dedicated platform plus the fact it will have the NACS connector (formerly Tesla connector), it will have a real fighting chance to compete with Tesla. The only benefit Tesla had was its charging network and now everyone can pretty much use it with the introduction of NACS

Manufacturers really need to brainstorm some things regarding some common connectivity,...and charging issues FIRST! This way, they don't have to 'Adapt" and overcome minor concerns that cause major issues.

For instance, Apple wanted to be different for many years,...and many generations with their "Charging" cables, only to be given an ultimatum that forced them to USB-C,...like everyone and their brother was already using,...for years!

Now, look at the mess the late comers to EVs and BEVs have caused,...with the NACS port and J1772 port,...only to conform years later to NACS!

I tell you, if these DAIs (dumb-@ss-issues) didn't happen in real time, no one would believe them.

Also, one day, every New Home will have at least one Level II charging port in the garage,...and every new housing subdivision,...and apartment complex will have an onsite charging pad! And lastly, there will be Charging Stations at every Gas Station/Convenience Store!

Now, imagine that!

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I don't think that most people are enthusiasts at all. I'm just aware that people making choices with their own money aren't willing to put their money down on an EV as their primary car unless they have ICE cars for a backup. 300 miles of range sounds like enough until you realize it's really only 60% of that on a road trip because you're not gonna charge to 100% or drive down to 0%, then you have environmental factors, the reality that their range drops on all highway use, etc. and then you're talking about having to stop for 15-30 minutes to charge every 2.5 hours or so. Not a great solution. Add in people who can't charge at home, and you're dealing with a lot of people who aren't going to convert.

If there was a fullsize SUV that was an ER EV, I would consider one for my wife. She doesn't need more than like 5060 miles of range for most days, but we also take it on longer trips where it's current 450 mile range is a big bonus

EREVs are definitely the right way to do an EV, but I think PHEVs are the logical stepping stone for people.

I’d agree, home level 2 (slow) charging is a challenge that needs to be addressed, however when range is 450+, how often does one need to charge? In that case, fast charging once a week for 15-20 mins isn’t a showstopper.

In the context of a roadtrip, 450+ miles which can be replenished completely in 20-25 mins means one can feasibly drive 800+ miles on a 20-25 min stop. Again, not a showstopper.

There are already vehicles (e.g. Li Auto Mega) which can drive 300-350 miles and FULLY recharge (0-100%) in 23 mins total:
https://evkx.net/models/li_auto/mega...chargingcurve/
Obviously the charging infra will have to support that, but I am bullish on Tesla in particular making that happen.

[CLTMDA]

All of those numbers are based on ideal conditions, almost never reality. My Lucid would show 500+ miles of range, but that was not reality due to temperature, diving conditions, driving style, etc. It would charge 200+ miles in less than 20 minutes, again under ideal conditions. Most chargers out there do not reach the level possible. Some share power between chargers at the same location, some simply are not that efficient, much will depend on the level you are at when you start charging.

I am not even addressing the possibility that chargers are out of service, some or all at a planned location. I am not addressing the demand at said chargers. Waiting for a charger is not like waiting at a gas station. Many people plug in and leave their vehicles to eat or shop, meaning that many chargers end up with cars parked and the chargers not used/inaccessible.

Again, not even addressing the lack of chargers in certain geographic areas. I did not take my Lucid on a trip from Charlotte to Laurel, MS to New Orleans to Seaside, FL and back to Charlotte because of the charging environment. Sure, it could have been done, but not without some serious anxiety.

EV's are fine for local use when you have a Level 2 charger at home, which I do, but the infrastructure just isn't there in some cases. I sold my Lucid due to that lack of infrastructure, not because I didn't love the car.

[mlanes01]

Originally Posted by JMD

Manufacturers really need to brainstorm some things regarding some common connectivity,...and charging issues FIRST! This way, they don't have to 'Adapt" and overcome minor concerns that cause major issues.

For instance, Apple wanted to be different for many years,...and many generations with their "Charging" cables, only to be given an ultimatum that forced them to USB-C,...like everyone and their brother was already using,...for years!

Now, look at the mess the late comers to EVs and BEVs have caused,...with the NACS port and J1772 port,...only to conform years later to NACS!

I tell you, if these DAIs (dumb-@ss-issues) didn't happen in real time, no one would believe them.

Also, one day, every New Home will have at least one Level II charging port in the garage,...and every new housing subdivision,...and apartment complex will have an onsite charging pad! And lastly, there will be Charging Stations at every Gas Station/Convenience Store!

Now, imagine that!

Yes why aren't there chargers at gas stations. Why do Tesla and EA put fast chargers at shopping malls.... Gas stations are in convenient locations for a reason... Put level 2 at malls and shopping centers... DC at gas stations right off the highway

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I’d agree, home level 2 (slow) charging is a challenge that needs to be addressed, however when range is 450+, how often does one need to charge? In that case, fast charging once a week for 15-20 mins isn’t a showstopper.

In the context of a roadtrip, 450+ miles which can be replenished completely in 20-25 mins means one can feasibly drive 800+ miles on a 20-25 min stop. Again, not a showstopper.

There are already vehicles (e.g. Li Auto Mega) which can drive 300-350 miles and FULLY recharge (0-100%) in 23 mins total:
https://evkx.net/models/li_auto/mega...chargingcurve/
Obviously the charging infra will have to support that, but I am bullish on Tesla in particular making that happen.

If I have to go somewhere and fast charge for 20 minutes at somewhere, where's my benefit vs just spending a lot less to purchase a gas car? Especially when fast charging stations are typically at or above the cost of gas? It simply doesn't make financial sense.

Your 450 mile EV for a road trip doesn't exist yet. Right now the closest thing to a mass market 3 row family SUV is the EV9 Kia (if you can call a $70k Kia mass market). It's range is 250-300 miles on a full charge. Subtract 20% for charging to 80% for battery health and 20% reserve for not ending up stuck on the side of a highway and that's a range of AT BEST 180 miles. That's 2.25 hours of drive time roughly, with another 24 minutes charge time on a 350W fast charger (not including time to get to the charger, park, plug in, set up, etc and also not favoring in you might not get full charging speed). That's an ABSOLUTE deal breaker. If I were to drive from FL to NC to see my folks it's 608 miles, or 9 hours of drive time. I would have to stop 3 times minimum to charge, adding an extra hour and a half minimum to the trip. And while you could get a Rivian R1S that's kind of suitable as a 3 row family vehicle with a 400 mile range, it's $100k.

For reference, our more spacious Expedition does the trip with a single stop for fuel, adding 5 minutes of filling time to the trip.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by mlanes01

Yes why aren't there chargers at gas stations. Why do Tesla and EA put fast chargers at shopping malls.... Gas stations are in convenient locations for a reason... Put level 2 at malls and shopping centers... DC at gas stations right off the highway

That's just part of the enshittification of everything. You're a product, driving an appliance. If you want to keep using your appliance, why not shop and consume a little more while you're charging it?

Also, to be fair, most gas stations are built with a less than five minute stop in mind, not a 20-30 minute stay.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by mlanes01

Yes why aren't there chargers at gas stations. Why do Tesla and EA put fast chargers at shopping malls.... Gas stations are in convenient locations for a reason... Put level 2 at malls and shopping centers... DC at gas stations right off the highway

There's several charging stations at gas stations right off the highway by me. But I live in a decent sized city, where you really are SOL for that is when you get into the expanses between cities. Get stuck on I95 in SC and need to charge and you're gonna be sweating, because there's not a ton of gas stations out there, let alone ones with a fast charger.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

If I have to go somewhere and fast charge for 20 minutes at somewhere, where's my benefit vs just spending a lot less to purchase a gas car? Especially when fast charging stations are typically at or above the cost of gas? It simply doesn't make financial sense.

Your 450 mile EV for a road trip doesn't exist yet. Right now the closest thing to a mass market 3 row family SUV is the EV9 Kia (if you can call a $70k Kia mass market). It's range is 250-300 miles on a full charge. Subtract 20% for charging to 80% for battery health and 20% reserve for not ending up stuck on the side of a highway and that's a range of AT BEST 180 miles. That's 2.25 hours of drive time roughly, with another 24 minutes charge time on a 350W fast charger (not including time to get to the charger, park, plug in, set up, etc and also not favoring in you might not get full charging speed). That's an ABSOLUTE deal breaker. If I were to drive from FL to NC to see my folks it's 608 miles, or 9 hours of drive time. I would have to stop 3 times minimum to charge, adding an extra hour and a half minimum to the trip. And while you could get a Rivian R1S that's kind of suitable as a 3 row family vehicle with a 400 mile range, it's $100k.

For reference, our more spacious Expedition does the trip with a single stop for fuel, adding 5 minutes of filling time to the trip.

All that may be the case now, but won’t be in 5 years. Again, this is why PHEV are not “the future” as “the future” will look far different not too long from now.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

That's just part of the enshittification of everything. You're a product, driving an appliance. If you want to keep using your appliance, why not shop and consume a little more while you're charging it?

Also, to be fair, most gas stations are built with a less than five minute stop in mind, not a 20-30 minute stay.

All cars are appliances. You’ve just romanticized certain ones.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by mlanes01

Yes why aren't there chargers at gas stations. Why do Tesla and EA put fast chargers at shopping malls.... Gas stations are in convenient locations for a reason... Put level 2 at malls and shopping centers... DC at gas stations right off the highway

100%

Nothing like 30 minutes of mall traffic or navigating a parking garage to find the DC chargers. Stupid!

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by jmack123

All cars are appliances. You’ve just romanticized certain ones.

Also spot on. Look at the top 10 best sellers anywhere.

All appliances.

[My M3]

Factory is unbelievable, new car should be great.
Still happy with the old petrol engine though.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by jmack123

All cars are appliances. You’ve just romanticized certain ones.

You seem to be defensive over something you read into that. I wasn't implying EVs as being more or less an appliance than any other car. You and Luis obviously have some skin in the game, I get it.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

That's just part of the enshittification of everything. You're a product, driving an appliance. If you want to keep using your appliance, why not shop and consume a little more while you're charging it?

Also, to be fair, most gas stations are built with a less than five minute stop in mind, not a 20-30 minute stay.

I wish I could say you're wrong, but you're not. It's ABSOLUTELY intentional, you're gonna be there for 30 minutes, may as well stop for a hot meal. Maybe a quick takeout and a trip to target. Walk out with some more stuff on credit card debt.

[CLTMDA]

Gas stations, for the most part, do not have the footprint to be anything other than one or two charging spots. That will not change, economics just don't work. That is why most of the larger charging stations are in big box retail parking lots. They can afford the real estate and it encourages shopping while charging. I can tell you, my wife got really tired of shopping in Walmart while my car charged...and we only really took a handful of trips in the Lucid. And then she got really mad when she realized she just spent more shopping at that Walmart buying "stuff" she did not need than it would have cost if we had driven her car and just filled up with gas.

You expect it to change five years from now, don't hold your breath. Multiple billions were set aside at the beginning of Biden's term dedicated to adding capacity to the charging network. They completed less than ten charging stations for the billions committed. EV's just aren't suited for most of the country and they won't be, chicken and egg thing, charger network thing, grid thing...too many hurdles. The charging is also getting to be just as expensive as gas in some cases.

I was an actual EV owner, wanted to try it out, did not work for me, but I can see how it might if the vehicle stayed local and you only charged in your garage. I think we are headed towards hydrogen, but what do I know.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

All that may be the case now, but won’t be in 5 years. Again, this is why PHEV are not “the future” as “the future” will look far different not too long from now.

They've been saying that for like, 10-15 years now.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

You seem to be defensive over something you read into that. I wasn't implying EVs as being more or less an appliance than any other car. You and Luis obviously have some skin in the game, I get it.

Caling it “enshitification” isn’t borne out of defensiveness? And yes, you certainly did imply they are more of an appliance thus the (negative) “enshitification” comment.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

They've been saying that for like, 10-15 years now.

Sounds like you’re making things up now considering the Model S didn’t come out until 12 years ago.

No one was saying maturity was “5-10 years out” at that time.

By the way, the average EV range at that time was 99 miles. Now its TRIPLE that. Technology ramps up exponentially, so do the math over what’s going to happen in the next ten years.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Caling it “enshitification” isn’t borne out of defensiveness? And yes, you certainly did imply they are more of an appliance thus the (negative) “enshitification” comment.

You're so angry about the thought of someone insulting EVs that you can't read straight. No part of my comment was targeting EVs specifically, except to support the complaint that charging stations being placed primarily at locations like malls is a problem. My complaint was in support of the person who originally said that.

Why would I care where charging stations were located and agree that such a placement was stupid if I just hated EVs in general?

Carry on being offended if you must.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

You're so angry about the thought of someone insulting EVs that you can't read straight. No part of my comment was targeting EVs specifically, except to support the complaint that charging stations being placed primarily at locations like malls is a problem. My complaint was in support of the person who originally said that.

Why would I care where charging stations were located and agree that such a placement was stupid if I just hated EVs in general?

Carry on being offended if you must.

Sure buddy. You weren’t insinuating EVs are “appliances” and your beloved ICE vehicle isn’t. Sure. We all believe you.