[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by kudos

The outcry about farm jobs from illegal immigrants is overblown. The US has and will continue to have temporary visas for farm workers (Mexicans) through H2-A. There is zero reason why those couldn't be increased as necessary.

Which is exactly what should have been done decades ago. The whole problem here spans many decades of not implementing such policies. Since farmworkers, on average, were paid $1.22 an hour in 2022, and the H2-A program requires pay based on minimum wages (averaging more like $17.55 now), farmers and consumers are set for a rude awakening.

The fact that such a policy is not being implemented beforehand is why it is not overblown IMO. And the wage stipulations.

Whether an expanded and simplified H2-A program is now implemented, in a timely and efficient manner, remains to be seen. The farmers find it burdensome and expensive, which is why the current situation exists. But, I am all for an expanded simplified version that solves our problems. Until that happens, it is going to be a problem. I am not holding my breath.

Glad you brought it up though, as an opportunity to lay out some details.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by unluky

But I grew up on a farm, so even eating shit at a job where I was in climate control and had donuts on the counter was nothing compared to my childhood of 18 hour days on tractors in the sun and bucking bails and sacks of seed around.

Hahhahaha so did I. Was working on our farm and an uncles pig farm, 45 fucking degrees (110 in usa speak) and dodging snakes that could drop an elephant in 3 seconds and spiders that bite first/ask questions later, someone offered me an office job and i thought it was the easiest money ever.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by ASAP

do you know what's even wilder... that we have to import people at near slave labor wages to do those jobs... outsouring jobs no one wants to do is kind of sad...

Outsourcing can take many forms. bringing in people to perform cheap labor. Or importing their products in a finished form. We do both. And have benefitted greatly from that. And it has had some very real negative consequences too. When looked at in its totality, the net outcome has been that we have had a very strong economy and cheap prices for a very long time. A net positive, with some serious costs.

I believe that what you are saying is that there are both financial and ethical/moral implications to that situation. No argument there, definitely shades of gray. An expansion to a full-fledged H2-A visa situation could address a big part of that. It could get very expensive. Are people really prepared for that? Or just unaware of the reality?

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by unluky

26? LOL. You got a lot of dues to pay before management should be the minimum. And as someone who hires people? A huge gap in your resume is always a red flag without a reasonable excuse. Especially at that age, so be mindful of that.

I was lucky and found my calling early and started in my industry right before I turned 21 and STILL ate shit for many years being moved and promoted to slightly increasing jobs. I was probably your age before I got a lucky break and a 2nd shift supervisor went out on maternity leave and no one wanted the shift - so I stuck my shit eating hand in the air and got a chance to prove myself. That 6 months turned into 10, but my numbers spoke for themselves and I was moved into a dayshift supers spot when she returned and then into the managers spot above both of those within the year.

I was almost 36 when I got my first VP title with a nice office with windows and l felt lucky to have it even then.

But I grew up on a farm, so even eating shit at a job where I was in climate control and had donuts on the counter was nothing compared to my childhood of 18 hour days on tractors in the sun and bucking bails and sacks of seed around.

Decide WHAT you want to do - take whatever job you can in that industry and always insure you are "the man" at it. First in, last to leave and stick your hand up at the hardest projects and you will get your shot. Management looks at people there for the company - not for themselves most times.

Don't give up. Roll up your sleeves and get after it - your work will be rewarded. Don't listen to the "hard work is for brown noses - the company does not care" crowd - there is a reason they have been in that spot for 32 years.

Very well put! Totally agree. The alternative is proving one's self by earning a very difficult degree and everything that entails. And you still start out at the bottom of your field.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

Outsourcing can take many forms. bringing in people to perform cheap labor. Or importing their products in a finished form. We do both. And have benefitted greatly from that. And it has had some very real negative consequences too. When looked at in its totality, the net outcome has been that we have had a very strong economy and cheap prices for a very long time. A net positive, with some serious costs.

I believe that what you are saying is that there are both financial and ethical/moral implications to that situation. No argument there, definitely shades of gray. An expansion to a full-fledged H2-A visa situation could address a big part of that. It could get very expensive. Are people really prepared for that? Or just unaware of the reality?

like you said... i think people are "comfortable" w the current reality because it benefits them, ie out of sight out of mind... but then you cant talk about deportations as some sort of human rights issue by turning your eye to the other issue... the media has in fact done this as have a lot of people

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Sounds like OP already makes a decent dollar, so either has to kick qualifications up a notch and get properly certified in something guaranteed to bring in cash (lawyer etc) but that will take damn near 10 years and knowing your education system there will cost half a million dollars.

IMHO easiest route is bring revenue to the table, i'd look long and hard at medical sales.

Like all things, if you go about it wrong, it can be costly and even ineffective. My son just earned his Masters in computer science from a top-notch university and it cost around $22,000. He already held a bachelors in a totally different field. He stepped right into a $125,000 a year position, nearly doubling his pay.

Planning came into play though, I had insisted during his undergrad years that he have a strong minor (computer science). His major was more of a passion. And he worked his ass off for all of that, then spent 4 years working between degrees.

I agree that someone who can produce revenue is always going to be a valuable part of any organization. Though I understand the OP wanting to change professions. Not everyone is suited for sales.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by kudos

The outcry about farm jobs from illegal immigrants is overblown. The US has and will continue to have temporary visas for farm workers (Mexicans) through H2-A. There is zero reason why those couldn't be increased as necessary.

Ha. I don't think the current administration has any love for anything tied to non-US citizen "immigrants" working in this country, even if they are here legally under H2-A.

This is one of many perfect examples of "f around and find out" that this administration and the American people will experience in about 2 to 6 months. A simplistic view of complex issues is something this administration and its base lives by.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by alfisti

...and dodging snakes that could drop an elephant in 3 seconds and spiders that bite first/ask questions later...

.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Attachment 3654604



.

Honestly it was savage. You'd enter the pig shed, big place, maybe 100 sows or so, but they attract mice and these fucking Brown Snakes would be about and dead set have you nervous any time you move anything. They eat like a mouse a week but can drop 300 in one bite, like why are you carrying this weaponry to kill a bloody mouse? Fuckers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_brown_snake

The eastern brown snake is considered the second-most venomous terrestrial snake in the world, behind only the inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus) of central east Australia.[58] Responsible for more deaths from snakebite in Australia than any other species. As a genus, brown snakes were responsible for 41% of identified snakebite victims in Australia between 2005 and 2015, and for 15 of the 19 deaths during this period.[60] Within the genus, the eastern brown snake is the species most commonly implicated.[56] It is classified as a snake of medical importance by the World Health Organization.[61][c]

[LuvMyE92]

Originally Posted by Mosaud1998

I've had jobs call me and ask for interviews. But, it's sales jobs. The salary is lower than what I am making right now, so taking the new opportunity to do the same thing and drive further would make no sense. I wouldn't mind driving 45~ min and doing something else with the same pay.

Mosaud, I remember you from the G30 subforum. Let me ask you this: would you take a lower salary to do something that you love? If so, how much less? 10%, 50%?

Originally Posted by Alfisti

... and these f____g Brown Snakes would be about and dead set have you nervous any time you move anything.

Wow, we went from career counseling to macro economic theory to killer brown snakes in Australia.

Back to the OP: Networking doesn't just mean people in your profession. Heck, you've been meeting new people for years now, have none of your customers worked in areas that might interest you? Perhaps that's where you can start. Call/text/email them, and say "hey remember me, I sold you that car 3 years ago, can we talk about what you and your company do and how I might get started?"

I think if you can open your horizons to outside of the automotive industry, that will help you a bunch.

[3.0L]

Sometimes when I glance at this thread title I see, “Does the black market
suck, or… “ likely a flashback to some things I witnessed in Vietnam.

[floridaorange]

It has sucked but it’s about to drastically improve. Buckle up butter cups.

[Mosaud1998]

Originally Posted by LuvMyE92

Mosaud, I remember you from the G30 subforum. Let me ask you this: would you take a lower salary to do something that you love? If so, how much less? 10%, 50%?



Wow, we went from career counseling to macro economic theory to killer brown snakes in Australia.

Back to the OP: Networking doesn't just mean people in your profession. Heck, you've been meeting new people for years now, have none of your customers worked in areas that might interest you? Perhaps that's where you can start. Call/text/email them, and say "hey remember me, I sold you that car 3 years ago, can we talk about what you and your company do and how I might get started?"

I think if you can open your horizons to outside of the automotive industry, that will help you a bunch.

I would take a pay cut to do something I love. I would enjoy entering the corporate world at GM, Hyundai, Ford, etc. Unfortunately, I don't have access to past customers from my previous sales position.

I had an interview with Belle Tire today for the position of 2nd Assistant Store Manager (I didn't know Belle Tire had three Assistant Store Managers). The compensation stated in the job description was misleading. They mentioned a salary range of $60,000 to $65,000 per year. However, when I spoke with the Regional Manager, I discovered it’s $19 per hour plus an $800 monthly guaranteed commission. So, it’s nowhere near what was advertised.

Within six months to a year (depending on my performance), I could become an Assistant Store Manager, where I’d earn a base salary of $60,000 plus bonus commissions. I’m unsure if I'd consider the job, as the compensation is lower than I expected and less than what I currently make. Unless I can secure a guaranteed Assistant Store Manager position, I might think twice about it.

Plus, what good will "Assistant store Manager" do on my resume if I decide to take the job and leave in 3 years~? It just seems like another "place holder" similar to the whole sales world.

[FThirtyJuice]

sucks

[ny325]

OP, and those searching for employment, I wish you all luck. I know a lot of people with college degrees, that can’t find a decent job, or a job. Unless you’re a doctor, nurse, lawyer, or an engineer, yes finding employment is difficult.

I read that learning a trade ( Carpenter, electrician, plumber, etc) is the way to go.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by ny325

OP, and those searching for employment, I wish you all luck. I know a lot of people with college degrees, that can’t find a decent job, or a job. Unless you’re a doctor, nurse, lawyer, or an engineer, yes finding employment is difficult.

I read that learning a trade ( Carpenter, electrician, plumber, etc) is the way to go.

I trade can be great for a career and money. The downside to may trades is that it can be difficult to do some of those jobs as you age as most of those jobs require working with your hand, working in all sort of environments, working on your back, etc. Of course, working at a desk long term sucks too. My hips, ham strings, abs, and lower back are all locked up and weak due to spending much of my life from mid 20s to 50 (now) working at a desk. I'm also in decent shape too and play competitive sports and still have issues thanks to work.

[floridaorange]

An associate of mine posted a similar post to this thread topic today on Likedin and the first response seemed like a good explanation.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by floridaorange

An associate of mine posted a similar post to this thread topic today on Likedin and the first response seemed like a good explanation.

As a hiring senior manager for a consulting firm, I think some of the other issue with the younger potential hires (i.e., under 35) is that many expect a high paying, important job and aren't willing to put in the grind to learn the business/get the experience to get into a position like that. When I joined the workforce back in 1998, it was assumed that you start at the bottom with an entry-level salary and work your way up, gaining bits of experience, knowledge, and responsibility, seizing opportunity, putting in the hours, and generally doing the "dirty work" for quite a while.

What I'm seeing with many college grads and sub 35 y/o's is that they want it all NOW and also aren't willing to put in the extra time and effort to gain that experience, slog through the mud for a while, and prove their worth. I am absolutely all about a true work-life balance, but many of these younger folks simply aren't willing to put in the extra effort. They want to be a lead engineer, consultant, or manager from day 1 and get paid like it. It doesn't work like that. I think a lot of these younger folks had a pretty cushy younger life and got what they wanted and are expecting the same from their employer. In their minds, simply showing up and putting in ok effort and leaving/logging off right at 5pm is enough. It is not. I think social media is also largely to blame, specially, influencers.

As a result, we have dialed back our hiring because the younger talent pool simply isn't there. I almost feel like we're trying to make them sweat and realize that they don't get it all now and they need to start from the bottom and with the lower salary.

[DrVenture]

The situation is a function of mismatched skills and labor shortages in certain fields. From all reports there are shortages in the trades, but as Xutvjet submitted (post 107), it is hard work that gets harder with time. There are shortages in healthcare, but the best jobs require education and may not be suited for everyone. There are shortages in the services sector, but the pay, while getting better, isn't great. There are also shortage in manufacturing, this coming from the people that do the staffing. The best bet is to plan accordingly.

My personal view is that people used to take jobs (any jobs) to get ahead, do the work to advance, and be patient. I am not sure enough people still do that. Maybe people now overestimate their abilities, qualifications and value, before earning those traits?

The economy is doing well, based on objective numbers. And has been for more than a decade, with the exception of CoVid. Of course that could change quickly, in either direction. The demographics are daunting. And the labor participation rate is a big factor.

A very interesting article from about 10 years ago that appears to be playing out. Two key takeaways are that demographic trends are essentially irreversible. And that as labor pools become scarce, labor will become more valuable than financial capital. Lots of implications here. Not all bad, though some see all change as bad.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stratfo...omic-reversal/

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

As a hiring senior manager for a consulting firm, I think some of the other issue with the younger potential hires (i.e., under 35) is that many expect a high paying, important job and aren't willing to put in the grind to learn the business/get the experience to get into a position like that. When I joined the workforce back in 1998, it was assumed that you start at the bottom with an entry-level salary and work your way up, gaining bits of experience, knowledge, and responsibility, seizing opportunity, putting in the hours, and generally doing the "dirty work" for quite a while.

What I'm seeing with many college grads and sub 35 y/o's is that they want it all NOW and also aren't willing to put in the extra time and effort to gain that experience, slog through the mud for a while, and prove their worth. I am absolutely all about a true work-life balance, but many of these younger folks simply aren't willing to put in the extra effort. They want to be a lead engineer, consultant, or manager from day 1 and get paid like it. It doesn't work like that. I think a lot of these younger folks had a pretty cushy younger life and got what they wanted and are expecting the same from their employer. In their minds, simply showing up and putting in ok effort and leaving/logging off right at 5pm is enough. It is not. I think social media is also largely to blame, specially, influencers.

As a result, we have dialed back our hiring because the younger talent pool simply isn't there. I almost feel like we're trying to make them sweat and realize that they don't get it all now and they need to start from the bottom and with the lower salary.

I was typing as you posted this. A lot of overlap. I am certain this is hampering economic growth.

I am interested in your thoughts on the over 35 crowd and hiring. Over 50, even. Are they undervalued? Too costly? Under-utilized?

[floridaorange]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

As a hiring senior manager for a consulting firm, I think some of the other issue with the younger potential hires (i.e., under 35) is that many expect a high paying, important job and aren't willing to put in the grind to learn the business/get the experience to get into a position like that. When I joined the workforce back in 1998, it was assumed that you start at the bottom with an entry-level salary and work your way up, gaining bits of experience, knowledge, and responsibility, seizing opportunity, putting in the hours, and generally doing the "dirty work" for quite a while.

What I'm seeing with many college grads and sub 35 y/o's is that they want it all NOW and also aren't willing to put in the extra time and effort to gain that experience, slog through the mud for a while, and prove their worth. I am absolutely all about a true work-life balance, but many of these younger folks simply aren't willing to put in the extra effort. They want to be a lead engineer, consultant, or manager from day 1 and get paid like it. It doesn't work like that. I think a lot of these younger folks had a pretty cushy younger life and got what they wanted and are expecting the same from their employer. In their minds, simply showing up and putting in ok effort and leaving/logging off right at 5pm is enough. It is not. I think social media is also largely to blame, specially, influencers.

As a result, we have dialed back our hiring because the younger talent pool simply isn't there. I almost feel like we're trying to make them sweat and realize that they don't get it all now [...]

I’ve heard something akin to that - expecting their parents lifestyle right out of college not understanding what it took to get to that level in life.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

As a hiring senior manager for a consulting firm, I think some of the other issue with the younger potential hires (i.e., under 35) is that many expect a high paying, important job and aren't willing to put in the grind to learn the business/get the experience to get into a position like that. When I joined the workforce back in 1998, it was assumed that you start at the bottom with an entry-level salary and work your way up, gaining bits of experience, knowledge, and responsibility, seizing opportunity, putting in the hours, and generally doing the "dirty work" for quite a while.

What I'm seeing with many college grads and sub 35 y/o's is that they want it all NOW and also aren't willing to put in the extra time and effort to gain that experience, slog through the mud for a while, and prove their worth. I am absolutely all about a true work-life balance, but many of these younger folks simply aren't willing to put in the extra effort. They want to be a lead engineer, consultant, or manager from day 1 and get paid like it. It doesn't work like that. I think a lot of these younger folks had a pretty cushy younger life and got what they wanted and are expecting the same from their employer. In their minds, simply showing up and putting in ok effort and leaving/logging off right at 5pm is enough. It is not. I think social media is also largely to blame, specially, influencers.

As a result, we have dialed back our hiring because the younger talent pool simply isn't there. I almost feel like we're trying to make them sweat and realize that they don't get it all now and they need to start from the bottom and with the lower salary.

This is absolutely true, but it is a multi-layered problem. Even though I work for a university, I think they are a large part of the problem, convincing students that meaningless degrees will allow you to immediately secure a job as a middle manager in basket weaving making $150k a year. Part of my job involves managing a student IT helpdesk. We hire students, they usually work with our department for 4 years then when they graduate we assist them with finding jobs. Some of the job postings they send back to us are mind-blowing. The hiring managers have either lost their minds or are completely disconnected from reality. Many "entry-level" positions require 5 years of experience and a degree, which immediately disqualifies most fresh college grads unless they worked a part time job in that field.

Like it or not, $100k is the new $50k in many areas due to inflation and wages not keeping up. Some of the postings I've seen for companies in my area advertise starting "entry-level" wages of $37k for jobs requiring a degree amongst other things. In my area at least, $37k a year with student loan debt means you'll be living in mom's basement and riding a bike to work. These are not small mom and pop businesses either, these are large well known companies. One of my previous student workers interviewed for a job with an HR firm. The hiring manager and director both told their story of how long they had been at the company, and their humble beginnings of starting out without a college degree even, yet one of the disqualifying qualities of the candidate was not having a degree specifically in HR for the level 1 position they were hiring for.

I believe both arguments have merit and the solution lies somewhere in the middle. I was recently on a committee hiring a position that did not have many good applicants. We decided to add a small qualification or two and up the salary, and we instead received a pool of candidates that were 3-4x better than any of the previous applicants even though they were not being paid 3-4x more.

For the OP: networking is key. Attend job fairs, go out and meet people, reach out to hiring managers. Applying to jobs is a lot like dating in a way. Sending resumes to online postings can be like swiping on dating apps, employers are flooded with a lot of mediocre candidates they really have no interest in pursuing. Reach out to the companies, build connections, and make yourself stand out. If you truly work hard and are motivated people WILL want to hire you.