[Sticky]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

When two cars run within tenths and a few mph of each other at the drag strip, they are very close in terms of acceleration. That's what it tells me.

I thought the link I posted made that clear.

I know your car is pretty quick, dunno what that has to do with what I was saying. *shrug*

I origninally stated the 997S is a superior sports car, which it is. Someone stated the M3 was much faster. I contended it was a driver's race, based on the 1/4th mile times. Both cars will, under most circumstances, probably run in the low 13s-high 12s @ 110 or a bit higher. The M3 has a slight advantage, seeing as it has a huge HP advantage, and only weighs a few hundred pounds more.

That said, it's a driver's race, and we aren't talking about something even as large as the difference between a stock 335i and an E90 M3.

The 997 is not a superior sports car. The M3 out accelerates, out brakes, and out handles it. Namely the 07 mentioned here which doesn't have an LSD. Doing it with a usable back seat and trunk isn't a liability, but a benefit. Even if you go by the 09, which Car and Driver did, the M3 beat it around the track. What does that tell you?

The M3 also is 4/10's off the 997 TURBO around Laguna Seca. Considering the 911 turbo has much more power, where is the M3 making up the ground? In the turns. People don't realize on just what level the M3 is handling wise.

Come to whatever conclusion you want, I know how it actually is, I've done it. Since you like drag times, check out the M3 stock: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-17010.html . NEVER has an owner done that trap speed with a 997S or even come close, stock or with bolt on's.

Drivers race, sure, with a bad driver in the M3 and a good one in the 997. With equal drivers, it isn't.

[asdflkijd]

997S in a heartbeat, I wouldn't even look back at the M3....

[E82tt6]

I really shouldn't feed the troll, but I'm curious, have you EVER driven a 997?

To say an oversized, overweight GT with a nice engine is a superior sports car to THE sports car bench mark is absolutely asinine.

That's like stating that the 335i is a superior sports car to the M Coupe, because it is faster around a track, per C & D's lightning lap. Or perhaps like stating than an SL65 AMG is a superior sportscar to a 997 GT3. Or an Aston Martin to a Ferrari, etc.

The M3 is a world-class GT. A sportscar it aint. I have driven one, and driven one fast for an extended period of time, and it doesn't hold a candle to a base 997 in terms of the driving experience. Hell, it doesn't hold a candle to a Cayman S in terms of driving experience, and whilst very good, isn't even really as good as my old Boxster S, or S2000 in the fun to drive department. It also most assuredly DOES NOT out handle a 997. I'm not even sure how anyone could say something along those lines with a straight face. How about a Lotus Elise? Do you think that MIGHT be able to keep up with the M3 in the handling department?

The fact that you said that basically leaves me prepared to simply dissmiss you as a troll unless you've just never had seat time in a Porsche.

Quoting track times (from a road course) that are anything other than same day/same driver makes no sense in any way, shape, or form. If you'd ever driven on a big track, you'd likely know that even a small tire pressure change can make a VERY measurable difference.

This is likely my last reply to you, as I'm pretty sure you're just trolling, and doing a very good job of looking serious.

If you aren't, then I have a feeling that there is a LOT of congnitive dissonance going on. The M3 is a nice car, no one is trying to tell you that you did the wrong thing. Trying to convince people that your car is the best at everything to justify your purchase to yourself just doesn't work on a car forum. It's a bit like the 335i guys trying to convince people that it is superior to the M3, only in this case it'd be more like trying to convince people it's a superior sports car to a Z4MC. Ok, perhaps more like trying to compare a 335i to a C6.

You were trying to tell us it makes a better sports car than the 997TT afterall! If you aren't satisfied with the car, just sell it. Don't try to convince us it's something it isn't. The M3 is probably the best GT car choice in it's price range. However, a 997 Turbo it isn't, and quite frankly, comparing an M3 to a Porsche Turbo is more than a little bit silly.

If you were just joking, and not really trolling, then you should know that I did have a good laugh when I read the bit about the 997 TT! Thought I was already giggling pretty hard after the second sentance.

Originally Posted by Sticky

The 997 is not a superior sports car. The M3 out accelerates, out brakes, and out handles it. Namely the 07 mentioned here which doesn't have an LSD. Doing it with a usable back seat and trunk isn't a liability, but a benefit. Even if you go by the 09, which Car and Driver did, the M3 beat it around the track. What does that tell you?

The M3 also is 4/10's off the 997 TURBO around Laguna Seca. Considering the 911 turbo has much more power, where is the M3 making up the ground? In the turns. People don't realize on just what level the M3 is handling wise.

Come to whatever conclusion you want, I know how it actually is, I've done it. Since you like drag times, check out the M3 stock: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-17010.html . NEVER has an owner done that trap speed with a 997S or even come close, stock or with bolt on's.

Drivers race, sure, with a bad driver in the M3 and a good one in the 997. With equal drivers, it isn't.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by Sticky

The 997 is not a superior sports car. The M3 out accelerates, out brakes, and out handles it. Namely the 07 mentioned here which doesn't have an LSD. Doing it with a usable back seat and trunk isn't a liability, but a benefit. Even if you go by the 09, which Car and Driver did, the M3 beat it around the track. What does that tell you?

The M3 also is 4/10's off the 997 TURBO around Laguna Seca. Considering the 911 turbo has much more power, where is the M3 making up the ground? In the turns. People don't realize on just what level the M3 is handling wise.

Come to whatever conclusion you want, I know how it actually is, I've done it.

Yikes, I'm beginning to lose some respect for you sticky......

1) M3 brakes are from the age of dinosaurs. Even BMW admits it; changes are under way.
2) Car and Driver?
3) Um, you've done it once. And you weren't exactly error-free last time at Fomosa.

Hey look, appreciate your car but don't try to boost your own personal choice of vehicles by denigrating the competition. There's really no point in that. If you actually engineered the M3 rather than just handing over your cash to buy one, then it would be a different story.....

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Yikes, I'm beginning to lose some respect for you sticky......

1) M3 brakes are from the age of dinosaurs. Even BMW admits it; changes are under way.
2) Car and Driver?
3) Um, you've done it once. And you weren't exactly error-free last time at Fomosa.

Hey look, appreciate your car but don't try to boost your own personal choice of vehicles by denigrating the competition. There's really no point in that. If you actually engineered the M3 rather than just handing over your cash to buy one, then it would be a different story.....

1. Look at the actual braking performance. Fade is a separate issue, car and driver mentioned the brakes began to fade after FOUR laps of Laguna Seca. I lose respect for people who criticize the M3 brakes superficially. Do you have any experience with them first hand?

2. Umm, professional driver testing car cars around a track same time, same place. Unless you think you can do better? Take a look at the M3's performance in the various best handling cars tests.

3. Done what once? Error free? Such as? It is Famoso btw.

Hey, appreciate your car but I have more than one ride and the facts are the facts.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

I really shouldn't feed the troll, but I'm curious, have you EVER driven a 997?

To say an oversized, overweight GT with a nice engine is a superior sports car to THE sports car bench mark is absolutely asinine.

That's like stating that the 335i is a superior sports car to the M Coupe, because it is faster around a track, per C & D's lightning lap. Or perhaps like stating than an SL65 AMG is a superior sportscar to a 997 GT3. Or an Aston Martin to a Ferrari, etc.

The M3 is a world-class GT. A sportscar it aint. I have driven one, and driven one fast for an extended period of time, and it doesn't hold a candle to a base 997 in terms of the driving experience. Hell, it doesn't hold a candle to a Cayman S in terms of driving experience, and whilst very good, isn't even really as good as my old Boxster S, or S2000 in the fun to drive department. It also most assuredly DOES NOT out handle a 997. I'm not even sure how anyone could say something along those lines with a straight face. How about a Lotus Elise? Do you think that MIGHT be able to keep up with the M3 in the handling department?

The fact that you said that basically leaves me prepared to simply dissmiss you as a troll unless you've just never had seat time in a Porsche.

Quoting track times (from a road course) that are anything other than same day/same driver makes no sense in any way, shape, or form. If you'd ever driven on a big track, you'd likely know that even a small tire pressure change can make a VERY measurable difference.

This is likely my last reply to you, as I'm pretty sure you're just trolling, and doing a very good job of looking serious.

If you aren't, then I have a feeling that there is a LOT of congnitive dissonance going on. The M3 is a nice car, no one is trying to tell you that you did the wrong thing. Trying to convince people that your car is the best at everything to justify your purchase to yourself just doesn't work on a car forum. It's a bit like the 335i guys trying to convince people that it is superior to the M3, only in this case it'd be more like trying to convince people it's a superior sports car to a Z4MC. Ok, perhaps more like trying to compare a 335i to a C6.

You were trying to tell us it makes a better sports car than the 997TT afterall! If you aren't satisfied with the car, just sell it. Don't try to convince us it's something it isn't. The M3 is probably the best GT car choice in it's price range. However, a 997 Turbo it isn't, and quite frankly, comparing an M3 to a Porsche Turbo is more than a little bit silly.

If you were just joking, and not really trolling, then you should know that I did have a good laugh when I read the bit about the 997 TT! Thought I was already giggling pretty hard after the second sentance.

Car and Driver didn't seem to think it was silly to compare the M3 to the 911 turbo, or the GTR, and I don't disagree with their conclusion. Their opinion tends to hold a little more weight than someone who isn't in the market for any of these cars, right

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by Sticky

1. Look at the actual braking performance. Fade is a separate issue, car and driver mentioned the brakes began to fade after FOUR laps of Laguna Seca.

Hey, appreciate your car but I have more than one ride and the facts are the facts.

No problem, it's just that you keep referring to a magazine. Car and Driver. A rag whose primary business is selling advertising

"Facts are facts." (?) Vitamin E is good for your heart. No, Vitamin E is bad for your heart. Both statements were based on "facts."

Look, the M3 is a fantastic car. So is the 911; or Turbo, GT3, whatever (seems like everyone keeps jumping all over the place in their comparisons; the OP just wanted to make a practical real world driving choice between the M3 and the 997; he never said he wanted to go to Fomoso, er I mean Famoso, with it; please excuse my spelling, I've only been to Bakersfield a few times I'm just not into drag racing, sorry.

But they both have their shortcomings. And neither one will fit everyone's criteria. That's why they both exist. You make it sound like the M3 will mean the 997 will soon disappear due to lack of sales or something. Geez, car choice is highly subjective despite "the facts."

btw, Brock Yates left C&D for a specific reason. I don't feel most people don't rely on car rags to make their choice for them. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/03/b...-gt-r-and-91/5
And:
http://jimsgarage.wordpress.com/2007...pisses-me-off/

Anyway, the OP just wants real life opinions on the M3 and the 997 as an everyday fun car. I understand you really wanting to defend your choice but beating on the competition sounds more like a bad car salesperson

....p.s., where do you live in the Boo? Have I seen your M3 around? (check my avatar)

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

No problem, it's just that you keep referring to a magazine. Car and Driver. A rag whose primary business is selling advertising

"Facts are facts." (?) Vitamin E is good for your heart. No, Vitamin E is bad for your heart. Both statements were based on "facts."

Look, the M3 is a fantastic car. So is the 911; or Turbo, GT3, whatever (seems like everyone keeps jumping all over the place in their comparisons; the OP just wanted to make a practical real world driving choice between the M3 and the 997; he never said he wanted to go to Fomoso, er I mean Famoso, with it; please excuse my spelling, I've only been to Bakersfield a few times I'm just not into drag racing, sorry.

But they both have their shortcomings. And neither one will fit everyone's criteria. That's why they both exist. You make it sound like the M3 will mean the 997 will soon disappear due to lack of sales or something. Geez, car choice is highly subjective despite "the facts."

btw, Brock Yates left C&D for a specific reason. I don't feel most people don't rely on car rags to make their choice for them. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/03/b...-gt-r-and-91/5
And:
http://jimsgarage.wordpress.com/2007...pisses-me-off/

Anyway, the OP just wants real life opinions on the M3 and the 997 as an everyday fun car. I understand you really wanting to defend your choice but beating on the competition sounds more like a bad car salesperson

....p.s., where do you live in the Boo? Have I seen your M3 around? (check my avatar)

Yes, Car and Driver is in on the same conspiracy as the rest of the worlds automotive journalists in regards to the M3. Quiet, you will spoil it.

What a person values is subjective, facts are facts. Despite what a car mag says, they don't buy my cars, I do. People should come to their own conclusion.

Brock Yates is 732 years old.

I have been driving my other rides around, as my M3 seems to spend most of its time getting work done. I'm sure you will see it some point soon, I would like to as well.

[Plan B]

This thread is hilarious. I don’t know why there’s an argument here…

Sticky is basing his 997S vs E92 M argument primarily on empirical data…which is fine.

However, the debate on which is the “superior” performance car is subjective…as he has also stated. I have had seat time in E92/E90 M3’s on multiple tracks (not the straight kind), and I will still say without hesitation that I’d rather pay an additional $20K+ for a 997S, every time…and I like the M3.

The point here though is that they are both excellent street performance cars. However, dedicated track instruments they are certainly not. Not to mention, most that have just spent $70K+ on a street car will not likely drive 10/10’s on the track…and if they do (and there are those who have), it’s just not very smart as there are much better options out there.

So, where does that leave us? In the end, what most enthusiasts want is a car that challenges on multiple levels. It’s like women and fine wine…there’s no right answer, but I definitely want substance as well as other qualities. Personally, the 911 platform with a NA engine and RWD is the perfect blend for me, at this time. We can all get sucked into magazine racing, which could be very entertaining, but it doesn’t fulfill. I’ve fallen into that trap before and have bought a 996 GT3 RS. At the time, it was very highly touted, but it didn’t satisfy me for the other 5-6 days I wanted to use it.

I’ve learned this early on…buy the car you enjoy most after some real seat time; buy the one you can comfortably afford with cash if possible; drive it hard and expect depreciation; trade often…because in the end, they are all toys and your taste will change…just like women and fine wine.

[E82tt6]

Whilst I agree that some of the M3's specs may look better on paper, this isn't a magazine race. This is about the driving experience.

Quite frankly, the M3 isn't exactly impressive on paper either. $65k+ for a car that runs high 12s @ 110-112 stock is not exactly a performance bargain. And 12.1 @ 115 with ~$10k sunk into the car is even less impresive, however it is about the overall experience with the M3 as well. Vastly superior performance cars can be had for the money, so making any argument based on objective numbers, track times, etc when comparing either of these cars is a bit silly.

If the OP's primary consideration were all out performance with a $60k budget, he'd get a Z06, and see both cars in his rear veiw mirror, until after the first corner after which he likely wouldn't see them at all.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Whilst I agree that some of the M3's specs may look better on paper, this isn't a magazine race. This is about the driving experience.

Quite frankly, the M3 isn't exactly impressive on paper either. $65k+ for a car that runs high 12s @ 110-112 stock is not exactly a performance bargain. And 12.1 @ 115 with ~$10k sunk into the car is even less impresive, however it is about the overall experience with the M3 as well. Vastly superior performance cars can be had for the money, so making any argument based on objective numbers, track times, etc when comparing either of these cars is a bit silly.

If the OP's primary consideration were all out performance with a $60k budget, he'd get a Z06, and see both cars in his rear veiw mirror, until after the first corner after which he likely wouldn't see them at all.

Less than 2k sunk into the car at that point... don't know where you got your figure.

We've seen 12.7@114 stock. For how well rounded it is, sounds like a bargain.

[NewSong]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Whilst I agree that some of the M3's specs may look better on paper, this isn't a magazine race. This is about the driving experience.

Quite frankly, the M3 isn't exactly impressive on paper either. $65k+ for a car that runs high 12s @ 110-112 stock is not exactly a performance bargain. And 12.1 @ 115 with ~$10k sunk into the car is even less impresive, however it is about the overall experience with the M3 as well. Vastly superior performance cars can be had for the money, so making any argument based on objective numbers, track times, etc when comparing either of these cars is a bit silly.

If the OP's primary consideration were all out performance with a $60k budget, he'd get a Z06, and see both cars in his rear veiw mirror, until after the first corner after which he likely wouldn't see them at all.

Yeah a Z06 would crush both these cars, but badge whores will make up lies/excuses about the car anyway.

Let's see, how about:

"Z06 blows up when revving above 5k RPM."

[josephr25]

Originally Posted by NewSong

Yeah a Z06 would crush both these cars, but badge whores will make up lies/excuses about the car anyway.

Let's see, how about:

"Z06 blows up when revving above 5k RPM."

You honestly can't go wrong w/ a Z06, M3, or 997S. They all stir the emotions differently. Or if you're really rich, all three. It's sad some people will buy the status, but that's life...

I would choose the 997S, mainly because my dad used to own a couple (old 911; 1984 928), and I want to know what it's like to drive with an engine behind the rear-axle. It might bring him back some old memories.

The M3? Seeing as how the curb weight has been reported to be much less than BMW's 3700+ lbs, why not?

The Z06 would be last because of lack of rear seats, but that's more of a practicality issue. I don't know about the seats in a 911 though. Anyway, I always see shades of the C6R whenever I see one.

After I pay off the car, and have a place for myself, I would look at all three (or whatever is contemporary)... that's why I am trying to avoid modding my car...

[NewSong]

I just noticed you're from SD.

Are there any cool professional type places to hang out in SD? What areas?

Sorry to thread jack.

[josephr25]

Originally Posted by NewSong

I just noticed you're from SD.

Are there any cool professional type places to hang out in SD? What areas?

Sorry to thread jack.

If you're talking about just lounging around for a drink, these places are the only ones I can think of. They're all downtown San Diego. Just note, I haven't been down there for a while.

Confidential:

http://www.confidentialsd.com/

Altitude:

http://www.altitudeskybar.com/

J-Six:

http://www.jsixsandiego.com/

No dance floor; the latter two are on rooftops. Just be prepared to wait for Altitude. There are also tons of restaurants down there.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Less than 2k sunk into the car at that point... don't know where you got your figure.

We've seen 12.7@114 stock. For how well rounded it is, sounds like a bargain.

Full eisennmann race exhaust, an intake, UD pullys and a flash for under 2k?

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Full eisennmann race exhaust, an intake, UD pullys and a flash for under 2k?

Don't forget about DR's and possibly a new set of gears

[GhostyM]

you can get an exhaust for like 2k, tune for like 700, pulleys for whatever they go for and an intake for 300.

Still. 3K or 4k for low 12's is not bad.

[miktrebla09]

Just get the 2010 997 C2S with PDK...that'll tear the e9x M3 a new one.

[Los Angeles]

Originally Posted by miktrebla09

Just get the 2010 997 C2S with PDK...that'll tear the e9x M3 a new one.

You will also be paying $20k extra.

[Nikolas]

Porsche without question. They age very well. Here is my 18 year old C4. This has been by far the most reliable car I have ever owned. When it finally goes, the replacement will be a 997 4S. Drive both - and please not for straight line performance. If 1/4 mile times are you main concern both choices are the wrong cars.

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Less than 2k sunk into the car at that point... don't know where you got your figure.

We've seen 12.7@114 stock. For how well rounded it is, sounds like a bargain.

Why is it that every thread tries to become the benchmark for penis envy? The OP has never shown any interest in tracking or drag racing his car. His primary objective is to chose between 2 cars that are within his budget and is simply asking for recommendations. If I were to guess (and correct me if I am wrong OP), is that you are trying to justify buying a USED P car over a new M3. Now lets keep our pants zipped tight and give the OP some useful un-adrenalized recommendations!