[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by The long haul

As a E92M owner, you're delusional.

No I'm not. Old porches need work to sound good. GT3s cost twice as much and sound like angry hair dryers. I'll take the S65 k thanks.

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars

No I'm not. Old porches need work to sound good. GT3s cost twice as much and sound like angry hair dryers. I'll take the S65 k thanks.

Sound is subjective of course, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe you're insane.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by The long haul

Sound is subjective of course, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe you're insane.

Not sure why you're calling me insane. Sound may be subjective, but it's not like I'm saying a civic sounds amazing compared to a P car. It would be a close comparison either way.

I hope you've taken your M3 to a track. If you have not, I'd encourage it. Roll your window down, get close to the barrier wall, punch it, and listen to that sweet sound as it reverberates off. I have yet to find another car that sounds like that.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by adc

That's what they said before. If the US throws a fit again they will shove a 6sp in there.

Not this time. M5 is only engineered with DCT. Manual sales did not warrant a budget for it.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars

No I'm not. Old porches need work to sound good. GT3s cost twice as much and sound like angry hair dryers. I'll take the S65 k thanks.

Don't old Porches creak and rattle during high winds?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by clbmw

Any news on this?

Any sign of the i8+ or news on the second gen i8 where there was a mention of approx 700bhp

We will see the refreshed i8 and expansion models in under a years time.
Although it is possible that they might let select journalists drive BMWs secret i8 prototypes including a full electric version and an autonomous i8 prototype.

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

We will see the refreshed i8 and expansion models in under a years time.
Although it is possible that they might let select journalists drive BMWs secret i8 prototypes including a full electric version and an autonomous i8 prototype.

Thanks. That all sounds quite exciting

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Don't old Porches creak and rattle during high winds?

Cmon Scott, all cars have quirks. Like bmws and cooling systems, fcabs, and sub frame tearing.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by The long haul

Cmon Scott, all cars have quirks. Like bmws and cooling systems, fcabs, and sub frame tearing.

Hmm someone did not see the irony.
Porches or Porsches?

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Hmm someone did not see the irony.
Porches or Porsches?

Respect, you owned me haha. For the record I love my old BMW models.
This made me laugh old loud, well done sir.

[Kiwi]

Battery cars are not sports cars. Their is nothing hard in building a fast battery cars. The skill is producing fast reliable petrol engine.
Tesla buyers are like watching religion they just have to follow just because everyone else is.

[ORIGIN M.]

Inevitable.

The NSX will eventually be 100% Electric...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...es-peak-racer/

Originally Posted by R N M

Instead of all this talk about electric crap - how about ///M goes back and engineers a new V8 for next gen M3/4 cars to match C63!

I'm sick and tired of hybrids / Electrics looking to be performance cars.
The new NSX is a prime example.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Inevitable.

The NSX will eventually be 100% Electric...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...es-peak-racer/

Right.

And, to all of you high-displacement multicylinder purists who don't believe electricity has a place in performance cars:
Exhibit A: Any current F1 car.
Exhibit B: Porsche 919 / Toyota TS050 / Audi R18 (WEC cars).
Exhibit C: Porsche 918 / McLaren P1 / Koenigsegg Regera / Ferrari LaFerrari

For decades, F1 and World Endurance cars have represented the bleeding edge of tech. Much -- not all, but much -- of that tech trickles down to consumer cars. I've gotta say: if those series are using it now, and the majority of the world's hypercar makers are either using it or about to (rumors of a Bugatti Chiron hybrid are still rampant), it is 100 percent inevitable.

Get over gas only, homies.

[C5 FOR]

Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP

You should look up some stats on current PHEV's and EV's, the battery packs are good now (don't look at early leaf's). BMW only allows the middle 80% to be used, this maximizes the life of the pack. If your laptop and mobile phone would not allow you to charge above 90% and would shut off at 10% they would last much longer too. But then people would be less likely to get a new phone every 2 years and a new laptop every 3-4 years. BMW also warrants the pack past the standard warranty period, or they do for the i3 anyway, 8 years. I plan to sell my i3 in year 7 to give the new owner a year of peace of mind. I'm checking it every 5k so I'll have a very complete history on its capacity. There are plenty of Volt and later Leaf drivers with hundreds of thousands of miles on them (some taxi's) that have had little (Leaf's) to no (Volt's) degradation in battery capacity. Pretty awesome.

EDIT: Also, as battery tech changes, older tech gets cheaper. So one might not find replacing the battery on a PHEV/EV as expensive as one might think in the very far future, if just swapping for the same pack. That and/or the ability to upgrade to a more efficient and/or more dense, higher capacity, pack might even be an advantage, more all electric range and/or more overall efficiency when using with fuel.

Fubar.

[C5 FOR]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Right.

And, to all of you high-displacement multicylinder purists who don't believe electricity has a place in performance cars:
Exhibit A: Any current F1 car.
Exhibit B: Porsche 919 / Toyota TS050 / Audi R18 (WEC cars).
Exhibit C: Porsche 918 / McLaren P1 / Koenigsegg Regera / Ferrari LaFerrari

For decades, F1 and World Endurance cars have represented the bleeding edge of tech. Much -- not all, but much -- of that tech trickles down to consumer cars. I've gotta say: if those series are using it now, and the majority of the world's hypercar makers are either using it or about to (rumors of a Bugatti Chiron hybrid are still rampant), it is 100 percent inevitable.

Get over gas only, homies.

Your a techyelecist, I'm a oldskooldude. World is changing, not always for the best.

[C5 FOR]

Originally Posted by C5 FOR

Your a techyelecist, I'm a oldskooldude. World is changing, not always for the best.

And I'm not your homie!!!!

[adc]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Right.

And, to all of you high-displacement multicylinder purists who don't believe electricity has a place in performance cars:
Exhibit A: Any current F1 car.
Exhibit B: Porsche 919 / Toyota TS050 / Audi R18 (WEC cars).
Exhibit C: Porsche 918 / McLaren P1 / Koenigsegg Regera / Ferrari LaFerrari

For decades, F1 and World Endurance cars have represented the bleeding edge of tech. Much -- not all, but much -- of that tech trickles down to consumer cars. I've gotta say: if those series are using it now, and the majority of the world's hypercar makers are either using it or about to (rumors of a Bugatti Chiron hybrid are still rampant), it is 100 percent inevitable.

Get over gas only, homies.

Homie, you should study your automotive history better.

Racing has become electrified because of rule changes, not in the quest for performance. That is a fact.

LeMans prototypes are hybrids because the rules changed to (at this time) only allow a certain amount of energy (Joules) to be consumed per lap. In order to meet this fuel sipping mandate, teams have resorted to hybridization - for the same reason as the Prius exists.

F1 cars again had first the kers and now the hybrid propulsion unit foisted upon them. Not one of them wanted it, and not one of them embraced it for performance. They simply had to comply with the new regs.

It is only now, a decade later, that the F1 cars finally are a bit faster than in the V10 era. But if you allowed unlimited design changes in that sport, you would not see any electrification at all, because lower weight trumps everything, and a battery simply doesn't have the same energy storage density as gas.

That's just physics.

You also point out to the current crop of hybrid super cars. These only exist to draw a connection to the F1 and LMP efforts, respectively. It's called marketing.


Like someone else said, I'd rather that my M3 weighs 500lbs less and sticks with a gasoline engine. When I go to the track I don't want to have to plug it in between sessions and worry about how depleted my battery is and how it will affect performance in the next session. Because that is what was happening with an i8 this past weekend at Summit Point Shenandoah.

[m4282]

If this is truly the case and we can expect a new m3/4 in 2020 or 2021 based on historical timelines, this might be the last gen M that will have only a gas engine, we may see electric / gas combos (i.e more weight - albeit more power) ...... the m3/4 may really become at that point a very fast solid highway cruiser but I can't see it going to a track if it will be closed to 4000lbs.

More reason I suppose to hold on to this and just upgrade components...... already has a very good base to work with.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by adc

Homie, you should study your automotive history better.

Racing has become electrified because of rule changes, not in the quest for performance. That is a fact.

LeMans prototypes are hybrids because the rules changed to (at this time) only allow a certain amount of energy (Joules) to be consumed per lap. In order to meet this fuel sipping mandate, teams have resorted to hybridization - for the same reason as the Prius exists.

F1 cars again had first the kers and now the hybrid propulsion unit foisted upon them. Not one of them wanted it, and not one of them embraced it for performance. They simply had to comply with the new regs.

Right: regs which have always been there regarding engine displacement and other parameters since formula racing's genesis. (That's what the "formula" refers to, after all.) Thing is, technologies "forced" on the teams are only forced on them because larger automotive culture -- from consumers to governments -- deem them worthy of use in what is, along with WEC, the two most important developmental racing leagues on the planet. Those manufacturers have always (emphasis added again) resisted changes in the regs, with little exception.

There is no better example of this previous to hybridization than the turbo craze in the 1980s. Think about the era globally then, in all aspects.

Then turbos were banned in F1 in the early 1990s. Think about the era, in automotive terms, globally then, in all aspects.

Then, turbos were reintroduced to F1 a few years ago. Think about the era globally then, in all aspects.

The same thing applies to powertrain hybridization. At the risk of repeating myself again: It is inevitable.

Originally Posted by adc

If you allowed unlimited design changes in that sport, you would not see any electrification at all, because lower weight trumps everything, and a battery simply doesn't have the same energy storage density as gas.

That's just physics.

Oh, c'mon. The sport would see all sorts of madness well beyond engine regs if there were unlimited design changes. A safety-related example, in one word: Lauda.

Originally Posted by adc

You also point out to the current crop of hybrid super cars. These only exist to draw a connection to the F1 and LMP efforts, respectively. It's called marketing.

So Koenigsegg runs in those circuits? Bugatti? Hell: Honda? (OK: Bad example since the NSX isn't quite a hypercar. I digress). You're wrong: it's because hypercars exist to do one thing and one thing only: to make the latest go-fast technology, typically available on non-street-legal racing cars, available on street-legal cars for those with the funds and the ego to afford them. Sure, part of the marketing is to tie them to current racing tech; that's a given since that's where much of the tech comes from (unless you're K-egg or Pagani, etc.). But racing is the chicken, and hypercars are the egg (pun not intended). It isn't the other way around.

Originally Posted by adc

Like someone else said, I'd rather that my M3 weighs 500lbs less and sticks with a gasoline engine. When I go to the track I don't want to have to plug it in between sessions and worry about how depleted my battery is and how it will affect performance in the next session. Because that is what was happening with an i8 this past weekend at Summit Point Shenandoah.

Hey: I agree. We'd all prefer all that. But electric is progressing, just like turbos, pneumatic valvetrains, stressed aluminum, carbon fiber, ceramics, active aero, etc. all have in the past. They only progressed because the automotive world wanted it. And the automotive world, by necessity, needs an alternative to big displacement and fossil fuels.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Right: regs which have always been there regarding engine displacement and other parameters since formula racing's genesis. (That's what the "formula" refers to, after all.) Thing is, technologies "forced" on the teams are only forced on them because larger automotive culture -- from consumers to governments -- deem them worthy of use in what is, along with WEC, the two most important developmental racing leagues on the planet. Those manufacturers have always (emphasis added again) resisted changes in the regs, with little exception.

There is no better example of this previous to hybridization than the turbo craze in the 1980s. Think about the era globally then, in all aspects.

Then turbos were banned in F1 in the early 1990s. Think about the era, in automotive terms, globally then, in all aspects.

Then, turbos were reintroduced to F1 a few years ago. Think about the era globally then, in all aspects.

The same thing applies to powertrain hybridization. At the risk of repeating myself again: It is inevitable.



Oh, c'mon. The sport would see all sorts of madness well beyond engine regs if there were unlimited design changes. A safety-related example, in one word: Lauda.



So Koenigsegg runs in those circuits? Bugatti? Hell: Honda? (OK: Bad example since the NSX isn't quite a hypercar. I digress). You're wrong: it's because hypercars exist to do one thing and one thing only: to make the latest go-fast technology, typically available on non-street-legal racing cars, available on street-legal cars for those with the funds and the ego to afford them. Sure, part of the marketing is to tie them to current racing tech; that's a given since that's where much of the tech comes from (unless you're K-egg or Pagani, etc.). But racing is the chicken, and hypercars are the egg (pun not intended). It isn't the other way around.



Hey: I agree. We'd all prefer all that. But electric is progressing, just like turbos, pneumatic valvetrains, stressed aluminum, carbon fiber, ceramics, active aero, etc. all have in the past. They only progressed because the automotive world wanted it. And the automotive world, by necessity, needs an alternative to big displacement and fossil fuels.

I understand that electrification is inevitable. I am just saying that it is not an ultimate performance enhancer in its current guise, the battery technology just isn't there.

Whe the turbo era went nova in the 80s, turbos were used to increase performance, nothing else. Turbo era in F1 - power was spiraling out of control and they banned it ultimately for safety. It bears No comparison to what is happening now. Now electrification in F1 is used to make it more socially acceptable, and they are scrambling like mad to get the performance level up and make the cars more exciting.

Just because it is happening doesn't mean it's better for performance. And if the next M3 cannot take a weekend at the track, I'll just switch over to a model with track car and tame daily driver, at which point BMW can go to hell for all I care.

And BTW, Bugatti doesn't do hybrids.

[adc]

Originally Posted by m4282

If this is truly the case and we can expect a new m3/4 in 2020 or 2021 based on historical timelines, this might be the last gen M that will have only a gas engine, we may see electric / gas combos (i.e more weight - albeit more power) ...... the m3/4 may really become at that point a very fast solid highway cruiser but I can't see it going to a track if it will be closed to 4000lbs.

There are plenty of heavy cars doing well on track, prime example being the Nissan GTR. Funny thing is, people are discovering that light and fast is more enjoyable than heavy and fast, and I see less and less of these at track days.

It is not the weight that will be the main issue for track enjoyment, it is that if you drive full on you deplete the small battery pack in a hybrid, there isn't enough recovery from the regenerative effect to keep it topped up.

And so you would need to plug in between sessions, but does it recharge all the way in 1.5-2h? I'd say not likely, meaning you will get less and less performance as the day goes by, ultimately driving on gasoline only and lugging the heavy battery around for absolutely no gain.


See the tests that they do on track, like the Lightning Lap while better than nothing still don't tell the whole story. Driving 2-5 laps is very different from 4-5 30 min sessions per day. That's where hybrids will suck.

The i8 I saw last weekend left after 2 or 3 sessions. I guess driving around with a 3 cyl engine and a dead battery was no fun at all.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by adc

I understand that electrification is inevitable. I am just saying that it is not an ultimate performance enhancer in its current guise, the battery technology just isn't there.

Neither was turbocharging in the 1980s. What that era needed was computerized management, the computing power for which simply wasn't available. Turbos were pretty much on or off propositions, as your response partially describes in terms of the power gains it supplied to engines already limited in size. Thanks to engine management software now, it's viable again -- and battery/regen technology will progress in a somewhat similar way.

Originally Posted by adc

Whe the turbo era went nova in the 80s, turbos were used to increase performance, nothing else ... It bears no comparison to what is happening now. Now electrification in F1 is used to make it more socially acceptable, and they are scrambling like mad to get the performance level up and make the cars more exciting.

"Nothing else" is absolutely false. It was also a solution for engine fuel efficiency as related to power, both on race circuits (less pit stops = better chance to win) and in the commercial world. In that regard, turbos were also a social response: to make smaller, fuel-efficient cars that dominated the mass market (and some exotic markets: Think Lotus Espirit and Renault Alpine) faster. Isn't that what hybridization also doing now for some (and, by all accounts, more to come -- including Bugatti, which is why I mentioned it )?

(Don't forget that forced induction existed in most formula racing, including Formula 1, from its inception. For the first couple of decades there were two engine 'formulas' allowed: one NA, the other supercharged. Forced induction was nothing new to formula racing in the 1980s)