[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

FSD is not hands free!!!!
From the Tesla website:
Like other Autopilot features, Full Self-Driving (Supervised) requires a fully attentive driver and will display a series of escalating warnings requiring driver response. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel while Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged.While Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged, the cabin camera monitors driver attentiveness (see Driver Attentiveness).

BMW supports hands free up to 40mph which is something Tesla does not support at all.
Tesla also does not have cross traffic alerts because it has no radar and can only detect what the camera sees. Also self parking is unreliable.

Tesla withvision only is a flawed premise.
Tesla also doesn't have true gapless 360 view.

Show me in writing where Tesla shops an unsupervised system where hands are not required?

Tesla doesn't even have capacitive hand detect. Primitive torque on the wheel.

Tesla in a quantitative analysis of ADAS for functionality and ease of use ranks 6th or 7th.

Only two systems in the US have L3 certification and that's BMW in the 5/7 and Mercedes S Class.

Tesla lags behind Cruise, Waymo and Zoox for L4.

Tesla is L2+ at best.

Lmao the hell it isn’t. They removed hand on the steering wheel requirement several versions ago in 12.4. Are you kidding me?? I literally drove to Boston from NY without touching the wheel 98% of the time. Try again. Don’t believe me? Countless YouTube videos.



SMH Tesla also just added cross traffic alerts in the latest holiday update. You really really don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

Even BMW ADAS you are clueless as the newer iXs with 8.5 will indeed do hands free above 40mph.

Oh and cruise is essentially dead as of last week so I guess they aren’t ahead of anyone anymore

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Completely accurate. Tesla ADAS is garbage.

That’s basic autopilot not FSD.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

What I mean is ubiquitous EVs in remote areas aren't cost effective. It's more cost effective to still have some sort of portable fuel than it is to put charging stations even solar. You seem to misinterpret what I am saying about EVs.

Only 230 miles of range? Huh?
I get more than 230 with stock performance summer tires. What specs are you looking for at? The eDrive35? With a smaller battery.

I doubt the next BMW anything will have a frunk. The iX is a bespoke carbon core platform and has no frunk.

I didn't make up the driving dynamics argument, BMW in an interview said that a frunk wasn't useful and affected the driving dynamics.

I never said I was the only engineer here. But you assume Tesla does the right thing with thier crap car/iPad, no soul vehicles

The i4 M50 is not getting more than 230 miles of highway range (i.e. at 70 mph) was my point.

I’m not trying to bash the i4. I’m sure it’s a great car and EV. My point is the average consumer is likely going to balk unless they get 300+ real world range and/or ultra-convenient charging (e.g. Tesla).

I see the next gen platforms providing that experience. The iX has nice range, but is expensive and doesn’t have the greatest charging curve. I’m sure Tesla access next year will help though (although the CCS experience has significantly improved on the last couple years).

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

Lmao the hell it isn’t. They removed hand on the steering wheel requirement several versions ago in 12.4. Are you kidding me?? I literally drove to Boston from NY without touching the wheel 98% of the time. Try again. Don’t believe me? Countless YouTube videos.



SMH Tesla also just added cross traffic alerts in the latest holiday update. You really really don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

Even BMW ADAS you are clueless as the newer iXs with 8.5 will indeed do hands free above 40mph.

Oh and cruise is essentially dead as of last week so I guess they aren’t ahead of anyone anymore

Tesla FSD is not safe as hands free.
No redundancy in the camera array. Tesla has not allowed evaluation by any independent agency. I don't care what Musk says. The system does not confirm to ASIL-C/D or ISO26262. If it allows hands free you shouldn't use it.

It is still called "beta".

BMW i4 is hands free to 40 mph.
iX, 5 and 7 series class use a later version of MobilEye hardware that is hands free to 85mph. Two different ADAS for BMW.
3,4 and iX,5 and 7. Your gotcha isn't; I'm fully aware of the differences of BMW systems. Mercedes and BMW are the *ONLY* systems certified as L3 with specific parameters where the driver only needs to be at the when and don't have to pay attention.
That will never be possible with Tesla as the cameras have no redundancy.

There is not Tesla past or preset that can meet L3 let alone L4 requirements because there is no redundancy in the sensor array. The system isn't even safe hands free because if a camera is lost it can barely keep the lane.

Tesla cross traffic alert cannot detect until you have pulled out of the space. They don't have radar, so they can only see what a camera can see. If the camera is obstructed, the alerts are not possible.

But they just added it in the holiday release and you say it's superior.

Auto Park is hit or miss at best because there are no ultrasonic sensors. No radar.

Cruise as a taxi company is dead, the technology is being rolled into GM after they acquire the 10% that they do not own. The technology is still ahead of Tesla. Tesla has been claiming FSD for a decade. Claimed last year that L4 would be this year. Announced that HW3 software updates would not include all features of HW4. Has started adding radar back because adaptive cruise without radar is not as robust as a radar based system.

You think I don't know what I'm talking about, but you just seem to be a Tesla fanboi in the wrong forum.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by R0ot.Us3r

Like you agreed, batteries degrade. So I’ll give you an ICE vehicle with the same performance after 100k miles as soon as you give me an electric vehicle with the same RANGE after 100k miles, I’ll wait…

What you naïvely are overlooking, is the cost to get each type of vehicle back to its original performance. my X3M may need new gaskets, injectors, etc, but the financial and environmental impact of a new lithium battery far exceeds that

But hey, if you’re OK with the fact that most lithium comes from the exploitation of marginalized, African communities, that’s on you

The lithium battery will last 25 years on average. In other words, it will exceed the useful life of the vehicle and then get recycled. Meanwhile, the powertrain will likely never need to be replaced, brakes will be replaced a fraction of the times, minimal oil changes needed etc. Range lost will be less than 10% over the first 100k on average. Meanwhile, your X3M’s motor will be a ticking time bomb (pun intended) at 100k miles.

By the way, there have been many studies showing the environmental breakeven of EVs being around 2 years.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by jmack123

The i4 M50 is not getting more than 230 miles of highway range (i.e. at 70 mph) was my point.

I’m not trying to bash the i4. I’m sure it’s a great car and EV. My point is the average consumer is likely going to balk unless they get 300+ real world range and/or ultra-convenient charging (e.g. Tesla).

I see the next gen platforms providing that experience. The iX has nice range, but is expensive and doesn’t have the greatest charging curve. I’m sure Tesla access next year will help though (although the CCS experience has significantly improved on the last couple years).

But your point is wrong. I own one and so does my best friend.
I have 20" summer tires and get 240. My best friend has 19" all season and gets 300.
The eDrive35 has a smaller battery than the eDrive40, xDrive40, and M50. All of the latter can exceed 240 except for the i4 M50 with 20" summer tires.

The fact that you are coming here trying to tell me what's real or not and you don't even own one and I do is a riot. 🤣😂

When solid state batteries are available things will change. But you aren't going to see that for at least 4-5 years because the Holy Grail anode issues are not solved.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

That’s basic autopilot not FSD.

No FSD is garbage.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by speedmaster20d

I’d call the new M5 a failure.

But you can't buy one because every allocation for one is spoken for.....

Yep massive failure when the order bank is full...

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Tesla FSD is not safe as hands free.
No redundancy in the camera array. Tesla has not allowed evaluation by any independent agency. I don't care what Musk says. The system does not confirm to ASIL-C/D or ISO26262. If it allows hands free you shouldn't use it.

It is still called "beta".

BMW i4 is hands free to 40 mph.
iX, 5 and 7 series class use a later version of MobilEye hardware that is hands free to 85mph. Two different ADAS for BMW.
3,4 and iX,5 and 7. Your gotcha isn't; I'm fully aware of the differences of BMW systems. Mercedes and BMW are the *ONLY* systems certified as L3 with specific parameters where the driver only needs to be at the when and don't have to pay attention.
That will never be possible with Tesla as the cameras have no redundancy.

There is not Tesla past or preset that can meet L3 let alone L4 requirements because there is no redundancy in the sensor array. The system isn't even safe hands free because if a camera is lost it can barely keep the lane.

Tesla cross traffic alert cannot detect until you have pulled out of the space. They don't have radar, so they can only see what a camera can see. If the camera is obstructed, the alerts are not possible.

But they just added it in the holiday release and you say it's superior.

Auto Park is hit or miss at best because there are no ultrasonic sensors. No radar.

Cruise as a taxi company is dead, the technology is being rolled into GM after they acquire the 10% that they do not own. The technology is still ahead of Tesla. Tesla has been claiming FSD for a decade. Claimed last year that L4 would be this year. Announced that HW3 software updates would not include all features of HW4. Has started adding radar back because adaptive cruise without radar is not as robust as a radar based system.

You think I don't know what I'm talking about, but you just seem to be a Tesla fanboi in the wrong forum.

I’m now more convinced than ever you are completely clueless to a hilarious degree. What’s even funnier is how many goal posts you moved in this response .

That first paragraph alone was absolutely hilarious. Who says it’s not safe? lol you? Please. Because why you are too afraid to use it? but but but redundancy 🤣🤣🤣The worst part of it is you are one of those guys that thinks he’s knows what he’s talking about but obviously dosent. Just admit your ignorance and move on.

And stop with the Tesla fanboy crap. I have 2 BMW EVs and a Tesla, both have strengths and weaknesses, but the fact is in the automaton space BMW can’t do anything like FSD, the mobileye ADAS feels like ancient tech compared to it and is a joke in comparison Period. end of story.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by R0ot.Us3r

Well said, EV’s are good for short local drives. That’s the positives from the new M5’s small battery for around town BS.

Batteries do well in static conditions with at static draw. Temperature changes, road surface, heavy acceleration, hell TIME - these all degrade batteries allowing them to store LESS energy. It’s not your iPhones age, it’s your iPhones battery’s age…

My 15 gallon gas tank will always hold 15 gallons

PLUS when is the last time an ICE vehicle was in a car accident and and people were stuck inside? Lithium fires are a B to put out. There is a reason R/C folks charge their batteries in metal ammo cans…just sayin

So your plugs and injectors don't wear and affect gas mileage. Yes you tank always holds 15 gallons, but component wear and how you drive affect how far you can go.

ICE cars catch fire and trap people. Let's not even make that comparison.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

But your point is wrong. I own one and so does my best friend.
I have 20" summer tires and get 240. My best friend has 19" all season and gets 300.
The eDrive35 has a smaller battery than the eDrive40, xDrive40, and M50. All of the latter can exceed 240 except for the i4 M50 with 20" summer tires.

The fact that you are coming here trying to tell me what's real or not and you don't even own one and I do is a riot. 🤣😂

When solid state batteries are available things will change. But you aren't going to see that for at least 4-5 years because the Holy Grail anode issues are not solved.

Excuse me, 240 real world miles.*

Stop the presses, you get a whopping 4% more than I predicted. 240 miles is still nothing to write home about. I get it, I drive two EVs, one built on a shared ICE platform, both of which get 240 max miles of range. I realize it’s livable. I’m just saying - until the specs come up to a point which the average (and often naive) consumer considers livable, BMW (or any other manufacturer- especially legacy ones) will struggle to move volume relative to ICE/PHEV.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

I’m now more convinced than ever you are completely clueless to a hilarious degree. What’s even funnier is how many goal posts you moved in this response .

That first paragraph alone was absolutely hilarious. Who says it’s not safe? lol you? Please. Because why you are too afraid to use it? but but but redundancy 🤣🤣🤣The worst part of it is you are one of those guys that thinks he’s knows what he’s talking about but obviously dosent. Just admit your ignorance and move on.

And stop with the Tesla fanboy crap. I have 2 BMW EVs and a Tesla, both have strengths and weaknesses, but the fact is in the automaton space BMW can’t do anything like FSD, the mobileye ADAS feels like ancient tech compared to it and is a joke in comparison Period. end of story.

You have no eff'n clue what makes ADAS safe.

I'm not the only one that doesn't think Tesla FSD isn't safe. One of the fundamental things that makes hands free safe is redundancy in your sensors. Just because "you" and a bunch of other people trust it doesn't make it safe.

The Feds think it's unsafe:
11 deaths per 100 million miles which is 10x the rate for human drivers.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fsd+...obile&ie=UTF-8

https://insideevs.com/news/735038/te...ependent-test/

https://medium.com/@mikeb2558_37862/...n-b2f6c96b6c82

NHSTA probes FSD over safety concerns
https://www.cbtnews.com/nhtsa-probes-teslas-fsd-software-amid-safety-concerns-over-misleading-social-media-posts/#:~:text=The%20agency's%20investigation%2C%20which %20began,have%20contributed%20to%20the%20incidents .

Additionally
"The National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) said in documents that it opened the probe on Thursday after the company reported four crashes, including one that killed a pedestrian, after Tesla vehicles entered areas of low visibility including sun glare, fog and airborne dust."

So tell me again how I'm chicken little?

So you have read the standards on ASIL and been trained in ISO26262 Automotive Safety?
You have Exida and TÜV certifications in automotive safety? You are an IEEE member and belong to societies on automotive safety?

You understand safety islands and service processors for graceful degradation?

You have designed fault tolerant systems for automotive and you understand parity for control paths and ECC for memory.

I have worked on ADAS and auto safety hardware for over a decade. Have ISO and TÜV certifications.

I talk about redundancy because one of the tenants of ASIL-C and ASIL-D *IS* in fact redundancy. You make fun of redundancy but to achieve L3 (BMW and Mercedes) you need redundancy to be considered "safe".

You say BMW and MobilEye feels like ancient tech, but BMW has L3 on MobilEye hardware in the 7 series. Like I said BMW and Mercedes have applied for certification and received it.

Tesla has not applied for any certification and does not submit to independent testing.

So while you attack me as ignorant, I suggest you look in the mirror.

[Efthreeoh]

Gee, I wonder who leaks such perfect photos...

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

That’s basic autopilot not FSD.

Tesla ADAS is garbage. Because it has zero fail safes and WILL fail on you. Just when you don't expect it. Kyle Conner literally just posted "FSD is amazing, why aren't other manufacturers doing this" and then like 6 hours later posted "whoops, it just drove into a curb".

And just because you didn't touch the wheel doesn't mean it's actually hands free. It just means, as usual, Tesla is cheating. Because it absolutely is a level 2 autonomous system. Just read the warnings Tesla themselves post.

Do you even know what an ODD is? Or what separates L2 from 3, 4 and 5? No, you are just a fanboi swallowing all the kool-aid.

Total trash. 90k miles worth of experience to judge it.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

You have no eff'n clue what makes ADAS safe.

I'm not the only one that doesn't think Tesla FSD isn't safe. One of the fundamental things that makes hands free safe is redundancy in your sensors. Just because "you" and a bunch of other people trust it doesn't make it safe.

The Feds think it's unsafe:
11 deaths per 100 million miles which is 10x the rate for human drivers.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fsd+...obile&ie=UTF-8

https://insideevs.com/news/735038/te...ependent-test/

https://medium.com/@mikeb2558_37862/...n-b2f6c96b6c82

NHSTA probes FSD over safety concerns
https://www.cbtnews.com/nhtsa-probes-teslas-fsd-software-amid-safety-concerns-over-misleading-social-media-posts/#:~:text=The%20agency's%20investigation%2C%20which %20began,have%20contributed%20to%20the%20incidents .

Additionally
"The National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) said in documents that it opened the probe on Thursday after the company reported four crashes, including one that killed a pedestrian, after Tesla vehicles entered areas of low visibility including sun glare, fog and airborne dust."

So tell me again how I'm chicken little?

So you have read the standards on ASIL and been trained in ISO26262 Automotive Safety?
You have Exida and TÜV certifications in automotive safety? You are an IEEE member and belong to societies on automotive safety?

You understand safety islands and service processors for graceful degradation?

You have designed fault tolerant systems for automotive and you understand parity for control paths and ECC for memory.

I have worked on ADAS and auto safety hardware for over a decade. Have ISO and TÜV certifications.

I talk about redundancy because one of the tenants of ASIL-C and ASIL-D *IS* in fact redundancy. You make fun of redundancy but to achieve L3 (BMW and Mercedes) you need redundancy to be considered "safe".

You say BMW and MobilEye feels like ancient tech, but BMW has L3 on MobilEye hardware in the 7 series. Like I said BMW and Mercedes have applied for certification and received it.

Tesla has not applied for any certification and does not submit to independent testing.

So while you attack me as ignorant, I suggest you look in the mirror.

HAHAHAHAHA! But but but REDUNDANCY!!! 🤣🤣🤣 I’m not wasting time clicking on any of that nonsense. Nor did I bother to even read most of your rant.

Who cares about any of your testing and certification crap v13 is incredible and the results speak for themselves, if it were truly unsafe it would be have outlawed by the FEDS but guess what? It’s not. So again just stop with your nonsense and obvious unhinged anti Tesla (and most likely Elon which is probably what this is really about) bias.

Oh and BMW thinks FSD is aces 🤣

https://www.newsbreak.com/benzinga-5...hers-to-follow

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

HAHAHAHAHA! But but but REDUNDANCY!!! 🤣🤣🤣 I’m not wasting time clicking on any of that nonsense.

Who cares about any of your testing and certification crap 13 is incredible and the results speak for themselves, if it were truly unsafe it would be outlawed. So again just stop with your nonsense and obvious unhinged anti Tesla (and most likely Elon) bias.

Oh and BMW thinks FSD is aces 🤣

https://www.newsbreak.com/benzinga-520061/3710535296161-bmw-calls-tesla-fsd-very-impressive-gary-black-says-automakers-will-eventually-license-it-one-deal-will-cause-others-to-follow

Thanks for proving my point. You're a total fanboi who thinks just because it works most of the time it's a fully baked system. Yeah, ok. Why does it require auto high beams be on? And oh, let me know when it can work the auto wipers. Because it still can't. lol.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Thanks for proving my point. You're a total fanboi who thinks just because it works most of the time it's a fully baked system. Yeah, ok. Why does it require auto high beams be on? And oh, let me know when it can work the auto wipers. Because it still can't. lol.

Works the auto wipers just fine chief. LOL.


And what point have you proved?? Absolutely nothing.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

HAHAHAHAHA! But but but REDUNDANCY!!! 🤣🤣🤣 I’m not wasting time clicking on any of that nonsense. Nor did I bother to even read most of your rant.

Who cares about any of your testing and certification crap v13 is incredible and the results speak for themselves, if it were truly unsafe it would be have outlawed by the FEDS but guess what? It’s not. So again just stop with your nonsense and obvious unhinged anti Tesla (and most likely Elon which is probably what this is really about) bias.

Oh and BMW thinks FSD is aces 🤣

https://www.newsbreak.com/benzinga-520061/3710535296161-bmw-calls-tesla-fsd-very-impressive-gary-black-says-automakers-will-eventually-license-it-one-deal-will-cause-others-to-follow

I'll reply to you one last time.

BMW said in a single post that a driver navigating through the streets on FSD was impressive on social media. That is not an official position.

So you prove my point. You say 13 is incredible and ignore all the real data.

Who cares about my certifications?

People that pay me quite a bit of money for my knowledge of fault tolerant systems a processor design, that's who.

I'm not unhinged anti-Tesla and Elon.
I have valid reason for no like both.
Tesla as a company with Elon plays fast and loose with safety. 10x the fatalities as human drivers is a fact. Which means by definition it's not safe. Safe is qualified by having no more incidents of accidents or fatalities than that of the statistics on humans.

And I don't like Elon because he thinks he knows everything about everything.

So I'm done since you just don't recognize real data and facts. I bet I know where you lean.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Tesla ADAS is garbage. Because it has zero fail safes and WILL fail on you. Just when you don't expect it. Kyle Conner literally just posted "FSD is amazing, why aren't other manufacturers doing this" and then like 6 hours later posted "whoops, it just drove into a curb".

And just because you didn't touch the wheel doesn't mean it's actually hands free. It just means, as usual, Tesla is cheating. Because it absolutely is a level 2 autonomous system. Just read the warnings Tesla themselves post.

Do you even know what an ODD is? Or what separates L2 from 3, 4 and 5? No, you are just a fanboi swallowing all the kool-aid.

Total trash. 90k miles worth of experience to judge it.

“And just because you didn’t touch the wheel dosent means it’s actually hands free”

Do you even hear yourself? Seriously just stop. Really.

Also I never said it was level 3 or 4. Stop putting words into my mouth.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I'll reply to you one last time.

BMW said in a single post that a driver navigating through the streets on FSD was impressive on social media. That is not an official position.

So you prove my point. You say 13 is incredible and ignore all the real data.

Who cares about my certifications?

People that pay me for my knowledge of fault tolerant systems a processor design, that's who.

I'm not unhinged anti-Tesla and Elon.
I have valid reason for no like both.
Tesla as a company with Elon plays fast and loose with safety. 10x the fatalities as human drivers is a fact. Which means by definition it's not safe. Safe is qualified by having no more incidents of accidents or fatalities than that of the statistics on humans.

And I don't like Elon because he thinks he knows everything about everything.

So I'm done since you just don't recognize real data and facts. I bet I know where you lean.

Well he’s worth more than you can possibly even dream and has done more than you ever will, so yeah I’ll take his word over your FUD nonsense thanks! Me thinks I detect some bitterness as Tesla probably wanted nothing to do with your “consulting” services and now it’s a holy war. Keep on coping though!

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

Works the auto wipers just fine chief. LOL.


And what point have you proved?? Absolutely nothing.

Actually, I have proved something. I've proven you're not objective and you're just a fanboi who won't read anything contrary to your opinion, and somehow thinks that a car which clearly states that FSD is not actually self driving and requires drivers monitoring at all times, by Teslas OWN words, and yet the software has disabled driver monitoring believes that is ok for whatever reason. Chief. Thanks for outing yourself just like all the other fanbois who make Tesla owners insufferable.

Enjoy your half baked science experiment. I hope one day you don't become one of the statistics.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

“And just because you didn’t touch the wheel dosent means it’s actually hands free”

Do you even hear yourself? Seriously just stop. Really.

Also I never said it was level 3 or 4. Stop putting words into my mouth.

lol, do you hear YOURSELF? Do you even know what Level 3 is? Seriously? With each post your expose your lack of knowledge. I can't describe whether it's more frightening or hysterical.

See ya.