[Myrder]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Are you aware that hundreds of people have died over the last decade from being tasered? Wouldn't you be in here saying "couldn't they just tackle him???" if he died after being tasered? It's never pretty when the police have to forcibly take in a perp, especially a very large one.

He did not follow protocol and could certainly be fired for that.

http://www.kpho.com/story/25238969/c...spect-officers

Look at these cops, getting their asses beat even after using tasers they don't go to their guns. Just amazing. They are hired as police officers, they chose the career, I don't think they have to right to go around doing things as they see fit and using excessive force. Garner did nothing aggressive. I don't care if he didn't comply he wasn't aggressive. Did you watch the video? Another cop says "Ok He's down" and the guy still holds his choke-hold. If you think that its acceptable to subdue someone like that with 4 other cops around then I see our discussion going nowhere.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by ASAP

So here is my take-

Guy was selling cigs and died... no matter what ensued in the midst of that, that is the story. On the Brown / Martin case, I sided with the 5-0... in this case absolutely not.

The US cops do indeed have a terrible overpowerment mentality, nowhere else in this world does this exist. The punishment for certain low rent crimes such as selling cigarettes, talking back to a cop or getting pulled over for speedind is and could be far too high. In other nations, the punishments we have for those types of crimes would be considerd laughable. In this case, my first paragraph sums the story up... the other 2 commited a real crime, this guy did not... and it is things of this nature that give the US an extremely poor name worldwide. Sure the guy resisted but for what sort of crime... and that IMHO is the major issue. Thats all I will say on this.

I agree.


Its so sad. Whenever I see a cop I feel more paranoid than I do protected.

[ASAP]

Also one other thing that people claim is contributing health factors... lets see how well that goes for you if u hit someone in the face and they die because they happened to have a stroke randomnly.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Also one other thing that people claim is contributing health factors... lets see how well that goes for you if u hit someone in the face and they die because they happened to have a stroke randomnly.

I disagree with anyone using his health (or lack thereof) as an excuse in this case.

If the medical examiner said he was suffocated, then he was suffocated. He didn't have a heart attack because of the stress, or he didn't suffer from any sort of other ailment at the time.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Also one other thing that people claim is contributing health factors... lets see how well that goes for you if u hit someone in the face and they die because they happened to have a stroke randomnly.

Hitting someone is assault. Again, you'd be convicted of manslaughter. Unless you were a white cop assaulting a black person. Then you'd be a free man.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Sara504

It would have to take an awful lot to die from a taser. I survived being electrocuted by volts meant to restrain something more than 12 times my body weight. Sure I passed out, but I survived.

And you already said you survived multiple choke holds as a kid. What's your point? I said I would have survived that same hold and people jumped down my throat. The reality is that there is a risk of death with a taser as well (and arguably a greater one).

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Myrder

http://www.kpho.com/story/25238969/c...spect-officers

Look at these cops, getting their asses beat even after using tasers they don't go to their guns. Just amazing. They are hired as police officers, they chose the career, I don't think they have to right to go around doing things as they see fit and using excessive force. Garner did nothing aggressive. I don't care if he didn't comply he wasn't aggressive. Did you watch the video? Another cop says "Ok He's down" and the guy still holds his choke-hold. If you think that its acceptable to subdue someone like that with 4 other cops around then I see our discussion going nowhere.

they didn't use lethal force in that video because the guy is bitch slapping the officers, hardly scary -they figured they had time to play around with their tasers

I think the point some of you are arguing against is the right of someone - anyone (much less society) to use force against you when you are 'not doing anything wrong.'
But you have to understand you live in a SOCIETY which consists of OTHER people, who, if they all thought like you, would be a clusterf*ck of violence and misunderstandings because no one would respect the authority of anyone other than themselves to alter their own behavior. I don't know how long some of you have been living in this bubble but you exists INSIDE a society which can and will impose it's will and force upon you, because the alternative as you would have imagined, of autonomous non-self-than-other recongnizing individuals.. is simply unworkable -hence 'government'.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

I was waiting for this question...

Have you seen the actual autopsy report from the Mike Brown case? If so, please share, because I haven't seen it either.

My access to sources of information is the exact same as your sources of information. Until one of us, physically have the report that shows Mike Brown was shot from the front and not the back or Eric Garner was choked to death as opposed to another cause, we both can only draw conclusions on the numerous corroborated reports.

In regards to me posting the definition of homicide, I did post a question to make sure I was understanding the decision of no indictment. Is a man selling cigarettes illegally a justifiable case to be killed for "resisting" arrest?

I'm well aware that there are scenarios in which a homicide is justifiable, but in this case with Mr. Garner it is not.

Yes, and i've posted links to it in this thread as well. Click HERE for another.

My point with the ME ruling it as a homicide and definition you posted was that the ME, by ruling it a homicide is only indicating that he died at the hand of another human. As in, it wasn't ruled a chance happening, or what they call an accident.

This is a post from another forum's member. I've edited out statements i disagree with, but it sums up my opinion on this subject very well and it speaks to your last comment about justification of arrest and Mr. Garner resisting that arrest.

I think that Eric Garner's death was unfortunate. He was probably just some neighborhood guy that we all came across in our lives. "oh, that's Eric. He's always selling loosies. He's hilarious". I don't think he was a thug or a violent criminal. I liken this case to Trayvon Martin's, sometimes 2 a-holes cross paths and people die. Garner was a scofflaw. He has a history of constantly committing minor crimes. He doesn't care. He seems to be the type of person that does not believe that the laws apply to him (driving without a license, already out on bail when this happened, repeated infractions). The police are constantly having to deal with him. Likewise, he's constantly having to deal with the police. Right off the bat, there is tension between the two men due to their past interactions and encounters. Garner doesn't want to be harassed, the police want to do their job. They were getting calls from local store owners. They have rent to pay, bills to pay, families to feed. They make money selling cigarettes, and they can't even compete with Eric Garner in the free market because of government pricing controls. Eric Garner is hurting the local businesses, at least on some level. The police have the right and are obligated to intervene on behalf of law abiding citizens. When the did, Garner resisted and things escalated and unfortunately, Mr Garner died. He obviously did not deserve to die.

We must remember, though, that it does not appear on any level that the police intended to kill Eric Garner. He was a mountain of a man and clearly difficult to get under physical control. It is a fact that he was resisting arrest. Looking at the video it does appear that mistakes were made. Negligence? Possibly. I don't see anything that would warrant a murder charge or manslaughter, but I could understand involuntary manslaughter being a very real possibility if negligence was proven.

I still don't entirely disagree with the grand jury decision. I haven't seen all the evidence and I don't know what charges were in play. I wouldn't have been shocked if an involuntary manslaughter indictment came down, and I would expect a civil suit to at least survive summary judgment.

I'm curious about your opinion on the following hypothetical situations.

1) A police officer is confronting a suspect. After receiving commands by the PO the suspects begins to move away from the PO. In doing so, he trips, falls onto a subway rail and dies. Is the PO responsible for this death?

2) A police officer is confronting a suspect. After receiving commands by the PO, the suspect does not obey and stands his ground when the PO approaches. When the PO attempts to subdue the suspect resists. In the course of attempted arrest, the PO and suspect are wrestling and the suspect ends up hitting his head on a curb and dies. Is the PO responsible for this death?

Would you be more outraged by this situation if the PO suspected that person of not paying subway fare? Are you less outraged if the PO suspected that person of a rape or murder that happened earlier that day? What if that person was innocent of all suspicion?

My only point of this is to illustrate that we are responsible for our actions. Our actions have consequences. Those consequences can be administered by other people or they can be a byproduct of our actions. In scenario 1 above, the suspects consequence of death was brought on by his decision to move away from the officer rather than to submit to the officers commands and work out the false arrest in a civilized, legal manner. In scenario 2, the suspects consequence of death were also set in motion by his actions. The PO has a duty to perform. Don't read that he has a duty to beat someone up, or take people to the ground. He has a duty to enforce the law. If he suspects someone of breaking the law and it warrants an arrest, he's should do so. If that person resists arrest, he is allowed to escalate the amount of force used to match that of the person resisting.

Again,NONE of this justifies Garner's death. I'm just trying to show that people need to take responsibility for their actions. I've been arrested a few times. i din't get my ass handed to me on any occasion. Why, because i followed every command i was given in the process. 5 hours later, i was out of jail and a few months later, case dismissed in court. Anyone that says it's not as simple as that, has a lot of contempt for the police, and i would argue it's due to their past bad decisions when dealing with police.

If Eric Garner would have placed his hands behind his back, let the police do their job, and the legal system work; he would be alive today. Maybe in jail, but alive. And that distinction likely had much to do with his decision to resist being arrested.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

And you already said you survived multiple choke holds as a kid. What's your point? I said I would have survived that same hold and people jumped down my throat. The reality is that there is a risk of death with a taser as well (and arguably a greater one).

My point is, if someone is stating they cant breathe AND we all know breathing is ESSENTIAL to sustaining human life. Then why did the office continue to restrict much needed oxygen thus knowingly resulting in the death?

At the point where someone is stating bascially "look I cant breathe Im going to die" WHY WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO CHOKE HIM?!!! It was no longer manslaughter. It became murder from that point on especially since the officer was using a banned move. Obviously they knew the move was harmful if it was used yet the officer blatantly disregarded it. If you're told not to do something AND you do it resulting in someone's death directly because of it, there should be SEVERE consequences. Not desk duty.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Sara504

My point is, if someone is stating they cant breathe AND we all know breathing is ESSENTIAL to sustaining human life. Then why did the office continue to restrict much needed oxygen thus knowingly resulting in the death?

At the point where someone is stating bascially "look I cant breathe Im going to die" WHY WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO CHOKE HIM?!!! It was no longer manslaughter. It became murder from that point on especially since the officer was using a banned move. Obviously they knew the move was harmful if it was used yet the officer blatantly disregarded it. If you're told not to do something AND you do it resulting in someone's death directly because of it, there should be SEVERE consequences. Not desk duty.

Because he is an officer of the law, he is ALLOWED to use force on you.
Anyone else who is not a cop doing that to you would be assault, as you liken it.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Because he is an officer of the law, he is ALLOWED to use force on you.
Anyone else who is not a cop doing that to you would be assault, as you liken it.

He is not allowed to use banned moves. Which is what this whole argument is about.

[KingOfJericho]

Eric Garner is also not allowed to sell loose cigarettes, not comply with the demands of an officer, or resist arrest. All of those occurred BEFORE any officer put an arm around his neck.

Of all people, Eric Garner should know right from wrong. He was arrested eight times previously for the same crime. Petty or not, 30+ arrests is a staggering figure.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Templar

I disagree with anyone using his health (or lack thereof) as an excuse in this case.

If the medical examiner said he was suffocated, then he was suffocated. He didn't have a heart attack because of the stress, or he didn't suffer from any sort of other ailment at the time.

I am not 100% sure if we agree or we disagree by the way you worded that but...

If u take a look at my example of getting hit and having a stroke and dying... the DA will come down on the offender and charge him with manslaughter unquestionably. The parallel will be made that the hit actually triggered the stroke whether it did or didn't, there have been a few similar cases of this sort.

As a cross example of this scenario, try to remember the Polish guy who was visiting his mom in Canada and was tased, subsequently had a heart attack and died. The issue; he didt understand English and wasnt even sure what the officers were asking him. Granted, that was Canada, but the mentality seems to be the same. What do you think was the response of media in Europe and Poland? hint- it was outrage, somewhat akin to Brown

I think most people here do not have enough of a worldwide view to fully understand some of the issues. I grew up in the South and am a moderete but I visit Europe frequently, speak numerous languages and have lived in various parts of the US. My perspective is rather varied.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Sara504

He is not allowed to use banned moves. Which is what this whole argument is about.

At this point I don't think that even matters. He should be punished for that, but what if they got in a fight and they used eye gouging or gonad punching? -Things that aren't explicitly banned/permitted but which can be construed as "excesive force"?

I'm just saying you're viewing it too narrowly, painted in one particular matter - but can you explain why many other people have a different take on it? It's not as cut-and-dried as that.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Eric Garner is also not allowed to sell loose cigarettes, not comply with the demands of an officer, or resist arrest. All of those occurred BEFORE any officer put an arm around his neck.

Of all people, Eric Garner should know right from wrong. He was arrested eight times previously for the same crime. Petty or not, 30+ arrests is a staggering figure.

You're beating a dead horse at this point. There will always be two sides, and everyone is going to stick with what they feel is right, whether it actually be right or wrong is another story.

I agree with you though. He was the main instigator of everything that unfolded, and as a grown fucking adult, you know what to do if you are going to be arrested. He chose to act like a child.

Do I think the cop was right in how he handled it? Not exactly. There were other ways he could have handled the situation, but at that point, he was doing his job. I'd like to see any of the jabronies on here strap on a uniform and see how they handle a situation like that under pressure.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Sara504

I agree.


Its so sad. Whenever I see a cop I feel more paranoid than I do protected.

Really? And that's a bad thing? I'm OK feeling paranoid because I didn't do shit. I hope the assholes stealing UPS and FedEx packages in my neighborhood feel TEN TIMES as paranoid when they see the police. Because they ARE the criminals. American police are intimidating, and coming from a country where law officers aren't respecting, I think that's a beautiful thing. I hope it stays that way.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by Billup

You're beating a dead horse at this point. There will always be two sides, and everyone is going to stick with what they feel is right, whether it actually be right or wrong is another story.

I agree with you though. He was the main instigator of everything that unfolded, and as a grown fucking adult, you know what to do if you are going to be arrested. He chose to act like a child.

Do I think the cop was right in how he handled it? Not exactly. There were other ways he could have handled the situation, but at that point, he was doing his job. I'd like to see any of the jabronies on here strap on a uniform and see how they handle a situation like that under pressure.

He killed a man and gets desk duty. There needs to be a higher punishment. Both sides were in the wrong but to the extent of someone losing their life there needs to be a higher form of repercussion.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Billup

You're beating a dead horse at this point. There will always be two sides, and everyone is going to stick with what they feel is right, whether it actually be right or wrong is another story.

I agree with you though. He was the main instigator of everything that unfolded, and as a grown fucking adult, you know what to do if you are going to be arrested. He chose to act like a child.

Do I think the cop was right in how he handled it? Not exactly. There were other ways he could have handled the situation, but at that point, he was doing his job. I'd like to see any of the jabronies on here strap on a uniform and see how they handle a situation like that under pressure.

I agree with all of this. Thanks, bud.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Are you aware that hundreds of people have died over the last decade from being tasered? Wouldn't you be in here saying "couldn't they just tackle him???" if he died after being tasered? It's never pretty when the police have to forcibly take in a perp, especially a very large one.

He did not follow protocol and could certainly be fired for that.

This.

Originally Posted by Sara504

It would have to take an awful lot to die from a taser. I survived being electrocuted by volts meant to restrain something more than 12 times my body weight. Sure I passed out, but I survived.

Tasers and choke holds are less than lethal means of subduing a suspect. That doesn't mean people don't die from them. People don't typically die from the electricity from the taser, they die because of the adverse affect it has on their organs, mainly the heart.

Originally Posted by ASAP

Also one other thing that people claim is contributing health factors... lets see how well that goes for you if u hit someone in the face and they die because they happened to have a stroke randomnly.

Originally Posted by Templar

I disagree with anyone using his health (or lack thereof) as an excuse in this case.

If the medical examiner said he was suffocated, then he was suffocated. He didn't have a heart attack because of the stress, or he didn't suffer from any sort of other ailment at the time.

Even the medical examiner stated that his health is a contributing factor. It can not be disregarded in this case. A fit man has infinitely higher odds of surviving this arrest, even Sara would have survived. A law abiding man has 100% chance of surviving this arrest.

Originally Posted by Sara504

Hitting someone is assault. Again, you'd be convicted of manslaughter. Unless you were a white cop assaulting a black person. Then you'd be a free man.

There is cause for an office to arrest someone, and use force should that person resist arrest. A citizen has no right to lay hands on another person except though self defense. There is no question to the justification of arrest in this case. Only whether or not the officer used proper technique and procedures for the arrest.

To everyone staring that this was unnecessary force, deliberate abuse of power, etc... I ask, what exactly would you do when a man this large tells you, an officer of the law, that he's not going to cooperate, not to touch him, and doesn't comply with any lawful commands?

What would you have done to "safely" arrest this suspect?

[Billup]

Originally Posted by Sara504

He killed a man and gets desk duty. There needs to be a higher punishment. Both sides were in the wrong but to the extent of someone losing their life there needs to be a higher form of repercussion.

Yes. I do agree with this, but to what extent? The guy was doing his job, and it came with an unfortunate ending, that could have been avoided wholly. What would everyone be saying if the cop didn't do this, let the guy get up, and the guy turned around and put the cop in a choke hold and killed him?

Nobody knows what the man was capable of, including US, the ill informed public, as well as the cop. People are unpredictable. What if he had a knife and when the cop let off he got stabbed? You don't know.

I'm going to reserve what I feel should have happened to the cop after the incident, but I do think he should have gotten a bit more penalized, however, I won't say to what extent.

In the end, if the man really valued his life, he would have surrendered when he was caught like any normal citizen would. Plain and simple. Shit, even if I was selling crack and got caught, I would take my arrest, because I was the idiot in the first place.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

This.


What would you have done to "safely" arrest this suspect?

The fucking crocodile hunter (god rest his soul) can man handle and tackle a 2,000 lb wild animal without killing it. You're telling me 5+ grown men can sub do a 350 lb man without killing him when the man is stating he cant breathe? Come on now.

[Myrder]

Originally Posted by grimlock

they didn't use lethal force in that video because the guy is bitch slapping the officers, hardly scary -they figured they had time to play around with their tasers

I think the point some of you are arguing against is the right of someone - anyone (much less society) to use force against you when you are 'not doing anything wrong.'
But you have to understand you live in a SOCIETY which consists of OTHER people, who, if they all thought like you, would be a clusterf*ck of violence and misunderstandings because no one would respect the authority of anyone other than themselves to alter their own behavior. I don't know how long some of you have been living in this bubble but you exists INSIDE a society which can and will impose it's will and force upon you, because the alternative as you would have imagined, of autonomous non-self-than-other recongnizing individuals.. is simply unworkable -hence 'government'.

This is some sheeple thought process. Society changes all over the world and what is acceptable there is not here and so on. Its about america supposedly being the land of the free where selling single cigarettes is punishable by death/arrest. Where in other countries they do not give a flying F. In Italy, I saw a drunkard spit in a cops face. You know what they did, nothing, they told him to leave and he did. Probably should have been murdered right? The police are human they make mistakes or purposely do things that should be punished.

"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing"