[NYG]

Mercedes was spotted on the beach in Melbourne

[irunalot]

You can't beat on MB regarding budget, in 2019 the last real year of development pre-Covid all of the top teams were well over 300-400MM a year depending on source. They were all throwing insane money at the sport not just MB. When manufactures get involved and are serious about it big money follows. Look at Audi and Porsche in WEC.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/...p-teams-spent/

https://www.essentiallysports.com/wh...ne-teams-2019/

[irunalot]

Originally Posted by NYG

Mercedes was spotted on the beach in Melbourne

That's how I feel after watching FP1 and FP2. That's OK, half the fun is getting back up when your knocked down.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by irunalot

You can't beat on MB regarding budget, in 2019 the last real year of development pre-Covid all of the top teams were well over 300-400MM a year depending on source. They were all throwing insane money at the sport not just MB. When manufactures get involved and are serious about it big money follows. Look at Audi and Porsche in WEC.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/...p-teams-spent/

https://www.essentiallysports.com/wh...ne-teams-2019/

I think low key Audi and Porsche are trying to do what Mercedes did and just take over the next generation before it happens.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by NYG

Mercedes was spotted on the beach in Melbourne

Yeah .Saw the news on Reddit ...

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

hundreds of millions
Their annual budget in the heydays was about half a billion (for ferrari too btw)

But indeed now with the strickt budgetcaps the deck gets shuffled, especially with large rule changes that require different tech.
I think this is better as it requires teams to think creatively and efficiently instead of force redevelop things with large sums of money.

I knew their annual was ~600mm, but I figured they were still spending 10s of millions on in season dev while others were not doing much. Either way, I like this because it has opened what seems like a big weakness for them.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

*****

That's that widened turn 3 I think, coming in far too fast to try getting something out of nothing, some others doing the same.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Been waiting for my KFC for ever, but Seb's doing his best I know

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

That's that widened turn 3 I think, coming in far too fast to try getting something out of nothing, some others doing the same.

HAM fears driving that kangaroo Mercedes .

[M5Rick]

[QUOTE=///M Power-Belgium;28778661]HAM fears driving that kangaroo Mercedes .

* The Monkees,porpoise song

[GuidoK]

When I see the porpoising this is the song that keeps popping into my mind....

[irunalot]

Here is some technical information on some of the Aussie updates

[F87source]

Originally Posted by NYG

You and I have very different definitions of marvel. It does not achieve it's intended aerodynamic function as a package. It's a failure, thus far, regardless of how innovative the cooling or packaging may be. If it was a suitcase or an air conditioner then maybe I'd agree that it was a marvel.

I can't imagine there's a single aerodynamicist worth his salt that would call the new Mercedes, in its current state, anything more than reality trumping multi-variate complex fluid mechanic theory. The theory behind it may be impressive but if it doesn't work then it doesn't work. Every week some blogger comes up with a different reason as to why the car sucks. Remember when people made the case that the Mercedes PU isn't one of the problems? Lol. It's all cope at this point.

How many more races until we call a duck a duck? Remember the comments about McLaren past not meaning anything today? Welcome to McLaren's world Mercedes. It's absolutely pretentious and absurd to think Mercedes is the lord of aero when there's a grid full of teams with equal or superior capability. Redbull has the most advanced CFD software and Adrian Newey - etc etc... Surely these teams aren't all idiots for not implementing a bad design.

1) Well, we will see if mercedes ever solves their issues so you can't write it off just yet. When we see the upgrade package that they release, that is when we can write off the w13. In terms of the season, if they don't bring upgrades after 2-4 races from now that is when we can write off their season. Unless redbull and ferrari keep stealing points from each other.

But the engineering is still immensely impressive to get it packaged the way it is, especially considering that with their major struggles and power unit being inferior to their competition - they are still the 3rd fastest car. That speaks volumes on the potential of this car.


Also cooling is a major part of a car, and is one of the most critical components of the car. It's easy to overlook it from the outside, but if you ever have experience with cooling you will know how much of a feat it is to cool such a powerful engine with such little surface area for cooling. For instance the m2 has major cooling issues when tuned, because bmw decided it would be a good idea to cut 1/3 of the radiator away inorder to stick the intercooler underneath of it for better packaging. The result is insanely difficult to control coolant temperatures with little to no solutions available, so we have to get creative with aux radiator upgrades, water sprayers, deletion of the oil coolant heat exchanger etc. So to me the engine packaging on the w13 and cooling system is an absolute master piece and I hope it will eventually tickle down to consumers.



2) You can't talk smack about a design until you see the flow data and truly understand what is going wrong with it. That's why Kyle (also has a PHD in this field) and B sport (F1 aerodynamacists) say it is a very intriguing concept, scarbs and the race agree - if you don't know what the flow fields are like around the side pods then you really can't judge it as a bad design (f1 technical should be making a model soon). The performance isn't there because there are issues with porposing, however the overall concept is an absolute marvel pushing technology to the limit to get this concept to exist. Sure there were correlation issues and the performance isn't where it should be, but the packaging of a zero pod in itself is an extraordinary acomplishment, and if they can fix it even better.


And those excuses made by bloggers are just speculation at best.


3) When the upgrades come and if it doesn't fix it, then the w13 can be officially called a POS.


Also no one thinks mercedes is the lord of aero, they are the lord of innovation. Sometimes there are correlation issues to the real world and here we are today.


Also note, just because merc went down a different path doesn't mean they were "idiots", remember no one ever thinks the same way so no design will be the same - but that doesn't mean the design is bad. So you can't judge a design just because it looks different and you can't say everyone should have went the same way because there is only one right way to being the fastest - that simply isn't the case. There are too many flow fields around the car, if one differs then the entire car differs. This is why we can't say why doesn't everyone have ferrari sculpted side pods, because everyone will go down different development paths, there are more routes to take than just one. Also remember, not every team is a full works team capable or even thinking of redesigning the entire cooling system and engine packaging to acomplish a zero pod.


Also don't forget, the fastest car in f1 history is the W11. That shows you what they are capable of aero wise - and it's fastest in terms of cornering speed.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by F87source

That's why Kyle (also has a PHD in this field) and B sport (F1 aerodynamacists) say it is a very intriguing concept, scarbs and the race agree - if you don't know what the flow fields are like around the side pods then you really can't judge it as a bad design (f1 technical should be making a model soon).

Intriguing =/= Marvel

Mercedes doesn't even understand the flux. I've watched Kyle's video too and he also doesn't have adequate data for obvious reasons which is why his remarks are very general/vague.

It's not really impressive that the W11 is the fastest F1 car of all time.

That's like being impressed that a Bugatti Chiron SS is faster than a 86 Camaro. Except Bugatti didn't influence the hybrid era and get a head start before everyone on development. Technology and time frame are relevant.

Don't buy into certifications too much. I can name at least 30 people with PhDs in medicine and engineering that have no right to be practicing. His most important qualification is that he worked as an aero engineer for F1 (I think).

[F87source]

Originally Posted by NYG

Intriguing =/= Marvel

Mercedes doesn't even understand the flux. I've watched Kyle's video too and he also doesn't have adequate data for obvious reasons which is why his remarks are very general/vague.

It's not really impressive that the W11 is the fastest F1 car of all time.

That's like being impressed that a Bugatti Chiron SS is faster than a 86 Camaro. Except Bugatti didn't influence the hybrid era and get a head start before everyone on development. Technology and time frame are relevant.

Don't buy into certifications too much. I can name at least 30 people with PhDs in medicine and engineering that have no right to be practicing. His most important qualification is that he worked as an aero engineer for F1 (I think).

1) In this case their zero pod is an absolute technological marvel. What the real problem is - is their floor.

Here are some images:

1) Redbull:



2) Mercedes:




What the guys on f1 technical speculate is that this extremely flat and simple floor on the w13 compared to the redbull, is causing the floor to stall extremely easily - especially with the high amount of pressure built up above the floor due to the zero pod design. Then that couple with suspension issues causes a multitude of problems, the floor stalls and the suspension amplifies it. So if the next update doesn't fix it - I think merc is done for the season and they'll be working on next years car.



2) He has to be general or vague, because he doesn't have any CFD data to back up his statements, he can only use induction based on prior knowledge of how air behaves around certain structures. This is why saying the zero pod concept is a fail without data is a long stretch.


3) Yes it is, if it were such an easy feat how come other teams couldn't even match the cornerning speeds of the w11 where aero reins supreme and power isn't the concern? You don't have to match the entire lap time just cornerning speeds, and yet the w11 still reigns supreme in this area. This shows you that mercedes are not clowns when it comes to aero and they can hang with the best. I'm not liminiting my comparison to just the past, im saying in every era of f1, even the rb16 or other cars couldn't corner like the w11 could and red bull has supposedly a better aero department than merc. This can be observed in the w10 as well.


4) That is always the case with a degree some incompetency will always be present but that is just how it is. However the vast majority of PHD's have immense qualifications due to the rigours of obtaining a degree - from the research, from the learning that must be done, from learning to think critically, from learning to reinforce your idea and debate toe to toe with some of the best minds on the planet. This refinement in character is what makes someone with a PHD degree start off their careers at a higher foot hold than someone without (and they tend to be more desired - look at intense research jobs where results are key - certifications matter), and this is why they get the respect they deserve. I have been fortunate enough to work with many PHD's so far, and every single one has been at the top of their field. Just because you encountered a couple that are out of wack doesn't mean they are all worthless. Remember, a PHD is different than an MD where with an MD the entrance is hard but once you are in you just have to make it above the cut off grade. With a PHD it is a struggle from beginning to end to validate yourself and prove you have the chops to make it. This is why the majority of major leadership roles in research and development require certifications and not just experience alone.


Experience doesn't always cut it, I have seen many extremely high experience individuals in research that don't even know what they're doing they can only follow a certain routine and have no clue why they do it that way and cannot even explain it. The critical thinking aspect is the killer difference with a PHD.


Yes Kyle has multiple years of F1 experience with mercedes. So he clearly isn't a sham.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I wouldn't have believed unless I'd seen it.

[M3WC]

From the onboard cameras in FP1 and FP2, it seemed like Ferrari was porpoising more than Mercedes.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3WC

From the onboard cameras in FP1 and FP2, it seemed like Ferrari was porpoising more than Mercedes.

Atleast they're fast lol.

I heard red bull has really fancy damper tech that helps alleviate porposing.

[E92inNC]

Ferrari still running more wing than RB, they’re faster in the slow to mid corners but I’m concerned it’ll be the same story as the first two races, if Max can stay within DRS range he’ll pass easily at the end of a straight but if the Ferraris are behind they won’t have the difference in top speed with DRS to pass.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by E92inPHX

Ferrari still running more wing than RB, they’re faster in the slow to mid corners but I’m concerned it’ll be the same story as the first two races, if Max can stay within DRS range he’ll pass easily at the end of a straight but if the Ferraris are behind they won’t have the difference in top speed with DRS to pass.

Ferrari have attached a gurney flap to the bottom side of the wing, this allows the wing to reduce the down force generated and thus dump drag. I believe (but am not sure) this is because the gurney flap on the bottom side causes the air flow to stall and detach from the bottom side of the wing. So this solution mimics running a smaller wing without having a smaller wing, allowing ferrari to get away with not having a smaller wing. If you want to learn more there was a video linked a few pages back talking about this.


But if you look at Peter windor's video talking about speeds, under high fuel load the top speeds between the redbull and ferrari were the same, but ferrari had much better cornering speeds. So Charles will likely be able to pull away from Max during the early parts of the race and once that happens it will be hard for Max to catch up. Max got lucky last time the late safety car closed up the field, ruined checo's race, and disable the drs zones on the last lap eliminating Charles from having any opportunity to try and over take.

[E92inNC]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ferrari have attached a gurney flap to the bottom side of the wing, this allows the wing to reduce the down force generated and thus dump drag. I believe (but am not sure) this is because the gurney flap on the bottom side causes the air flow to stall and detach from the bottom side of the wing. So this solution mimics running a smaller wing without having a smaller wing, allowing ferrari to get away with not having a smaller wing. If you want to learn more there was a video linked a few pages back talking about this.


But if you look at Peter windor's video talking about speeds, under high fuel load the top speeds between the redbull and ferrari were the same, but ferrari had much better cornering speeds. So Charles will likely be able to pull away from Max during the early parts of the race and once that happens it will be hard for Max to catch up. Max got lucky last time the late safety car closed up the field, ruined checo's race, and disable the drs zones on the last lap eliminating Charles from having any opportunity to try and over take.

Interesting, I’ll look up that link for sure. The onboard off Charles during practice shows quite a bit of porpoising. From what I remember from Bahrain and Jeddah, the times they’ve showed the live speeds it seems the RBs were consistently several mph higher at the end of a long straight and with DRS Max closed up and flew by but Charles couldn’t. I think in Bahrain Charles was only able to repass going into turn 4 because Max was aggressive braking into turn 1 and it let Charles to get a cleaner hookup and traction coming out. It seems he got the lead back going into turn 4 more due to a better in/out of turn 1 than the drs speed difference.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by F87source

1) In this case their zero pod is an absolute technological marvel. What the real problem is - is their floor.

Here are some images:

1) Redbull:



2) Mercedes:




What the guys on f1 technical speculate is that this extremely flat and simple floor on the w13 compared to the redbull, is causing the floor to stall extremely easily - especially with the high amount of pressure built up above the floor due to the zero pod design. Then that couple with suspension issues causes a multitude of problems, the floor stalls and the suspension amplifies it. So if the next update doesn't fix it - I think merc is done for the season and they'll be working on next years car.



2) He has to be general or vague, because he doesn't have any CFD data to back up his statements, he can only use induction based on prior knowledge of how air behaves around certain structures. This is why saying the zero pod concept is a fail without data is a long stretch.


3) Yes it is, if it were such an easy feat how come other teams couldn't even match the cornerning speeds of the w11 where aero reins supreme and power isn't the concern? You don't have to match the entire lap time just cornerning speeds, and yet the w11 still reigns supreme in this area. This shows you that mercedes are not clowns when it comes to aero and they can hang with the best. I'm not liminiting my comparison to just the past, im saying in every era of f1, even the rb16 or other cars couldn't corner like the w11 could and red bull has supposedly a better aero department than merc. This can be observed in the w10 as well.


4) That is always the case with a degree some incompetency will always be present but that is just how it is. However the vast majority of PHD's have immense qualifications due to the rigours of obtaining a degree - from the research, from the learning that must be done, from learning to think critically, from learning to reinforce your idea and debate toe to toe with some of the best minds on the planet. This refinement in character is what makes someone with a PHD degree start off their careers at a higher foot hold than someone without (and they tend to be more desired - look at intense research jobs where results are key - certifications matter), and this is why they get the respect they deserve. I have been fortunate enough to work with many PHD's so far, and every single one has been at the top of their field. Just because you encountered a couple that are out of wack doesn't mean they are all worthless. Remember, a PHD is different than an MD where with an MD the entrance is hard but once you are in you just have to make it above the cut off grade. With a PHD it is a struggle from beginning to end to validate yourself and prove you have the chops to make it. This is why the majority of major leadership roles in research and development require certifications and not just experience alone.


Experience doesn't always cut it, I have seen many extremely high experience individuals in research that don't even know what they're doing they can only follow a certain routine and have no clue why they do it that way and cannot even explain it. The critical thinking aspect is the killer difference with a PHD.


Yes Kyle has multiple years of F1 experience with mercedes. So he clearly isn't a sham.

1) It's a failure that can't compete with Ferrari and Redbull currently. I'm the President of the United States of America, I just haven't been elected yet.

2) The results are right there.

3) It's impressive but it's not as impressive as you're making it seem relative to era

4) I've done research and worked alongside some of the most famous structural guys on the planet. To assume that they're competent because of a doctorate which anyone can get with enough perseverance is the dumbest thing on earth. I wouldn't let them design a 2 story warehouse and they've been on some of the tallest buildings ever built. Certs are an atrocious qualifier. It's why most offices have high school drop outs and not engineering graduates. Because they're mostly idiots. This isn't a shot at kyle, I'm just saying he has other qualifications that are important.