[nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn]

Originally Posted by trinim3

I wouldn't go so far as this. I've seen a few engineers get a MBA and end up at top firms. However, they're basically starting off from a scratch and at a huge disadvantage to their peers who started off in banking right out of undergrad. They aren't going to be even mid-mgmt and really then to me there engineering degree and all that time working as an engineer is now a waste.

Now the title of this thread is "finance" which doesn't mean banking. Investment Banking is a very specific area of finance. If you have an MBA with an MS in engineering you should be able to get some stellar mid mgmt strategy/marketing/finance whatever roles.

I know some firms that like to hire engineering majors, but not people who have already graduated and certainly not people who aren't "industry tested" via an internship or some work experience.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

I know some firms that like to hire engineering majors, but not people who have already graduated and certainly not people who aren't "industry tested" via an internship or some work experience.

That's what I was pretty much saying, they'll hire them as analysts, bottom of the totem pole, lol. So that analyst will have an engineering degree and a MBA and non-banking work experience but will be the same level as some finance undergrad lol. Top firms want people who are smart (and work hard). There are exceptions where someone who is clearly smart and hard-working but doesn't necessarily have a proven record in banking can be given a chance just at the bottom of the stack.

[MrPrena]

I jumped industries.
Finance, Elec, Chem, etc.
IB's do not make as much money as people think. Crazy hours. Only top 6 gets a great underwriting opportunities. Others are crap. Right now reminds me of 1999-2000 when everyone wanted to underwrite for IB firm.

As for me Chemical sector was the best. It was most diverse.

IF you studied Elec Eng, your math w/ some Stats, Econometric, Intermediate finance stuff can probably get you into entry easily. Finance and securities can be learn easily at the company, but it is really hard to teach Post MBAs ODE or Complex Variables for them to apply it at financial ind.

Originally Posted by pgviper

Currently I am an electrical engineer and looking to break into the financial industry, specifially investment banking. I chose electrical engineering because it was a safe and interesting career path that played on my strengths. Although engineering has a consistant job market, I don't see it allowing me to reach my goals within the time frame that I want to do so and therefore it is time for a change. Finance has always interested me and my technical and innovative background can only help me from here on out.

Has anyone here broken into the financial industry through a non traditional route? Whether it be engineering, law, liberal arts, whatever... What was the experience like and what lessons did you learn?

Getting my MBA seems to be the most secure yet most expensive route. Ideally, I would like to land an analsyt position first (gaining a basic finance and accounting background through my own book work) and then having that firm pay for my MBA. In the meantime I can take the GMAT since those scores last for 5 years. Unforutunately, I see my best option as getting the MBA first and then using the contacts I make through there to get a job. Until I talk to more people, gather more information and hopefully gain some advice from people on here, I won't be able to make an educated decision.

FWIW, I don't mind working insane hours, I don't mind doing b!tch work and I don't mind taking shit. I strive for success in anything and everything I do so lets please keep the brainless comments to a minimum. Any type of success doesn't come without risk and hard work and I am fully aware of that fact of life.

Thanks in advance!

[adobeee]

I've been an investment banker working in various M&A advisory firms based in LA and SF for 4 years. Although I went to a top undergrad business school, sometimes that's not enough to get into the field given the competition. The best way to overcome this is to network, network, network or through internships (if you're straight out of college). Almost all of my previous jobs were through referrals or knowing people. Hours in my first two years as an Analyst were tough (80-120 hrs/week), but they've gone down since becoming an Associate (60-80 hrs/week). The occupation isn't rocket science; getting in is the hardest.

The Managing Director I work closely with now worked as a petroleum engineer at Chevron out of college, but ended up joining Citigroup as part of their senior tech team. The most notable deal he worked on was the EMC and VMWare deal. The technical skills that you have will definitely help, but the best method he got into the field was through networking.

Hope this helps?

[kscarrol]

^ Bottom line for many things in life, it's not what you know but who you know!

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by trinim3

If you do get a MBA, only get one from a top 10 school. I also would want to do an exec-MBA program so I'm still getting paid while spending $100k for 2 years.

Exec-MBA program would be fantastic. Just not sure how to do that lol. I'm not dillusional, I understand that for them to want me, I need to have something that they want. The trick is to spin my experience and show that my engineering background will allow me to be an innovative thinker and possibly bring new ideas to the table.

Originally Posted by nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Ok, so I am going to be the bearer of bad news.

You will not get into an analyst program at any of the bulge brackets or highly reputable firm. They have their whole process and do not deviate from it unless you are the child of someone very powerful. They farm from specific (usually Ivy League) schools. It starts by juniors having a summer internship where upon successful completion they can apply to interview for the analyst program which begins almost immediately in the summer after graduation. It used to be that the analyst program lasted two years, and after that you go get an MBA. Now there is a move towards making the analysts full time employees.

Secondly, there is a massive divide between front office (investment bankers) and back office (IT). Unless it is a very small shop, who hardly ever hire people without at least some experience (i.e. internship), your family member cannot help you land a gig in an analyst program.

Let's say you do somehow end up in an analyst program. Your life will consist of having no life. You are property of the firm. You work a cubicle job for 100+ hour weeks at the equivalent rate of $10-$15/hr. You mentioned above about not wanting to be in a cubicle. You will live in a cubicle as an IB analyst.

So what is your route? Probably not on wall street. Maybe on the periphery, but not in the heart of it. Can you tell me what kind of analyst you want to be? Maybe going more towards the investment/wealth management direction could be better.

Thanks for the insight. At the moment, I have no commitment to a certain direction so thank you for the recommendations. I am simply trying to get advice from people who know the industry about what challenges are ahead for people coming from a different background. In regards to the cubicle, sorry for the misconception, I don't mind cubicle work escpecially to get things done where I need my own space but its not a spot I want to spend the rest of my life.

Originally Posted by trinim3

I wouldn't go so far as this. I've seen a few engineers get a MBA and end up at top firms. However, they're basically starting off from a scratch and at a huge disadvantage to their peers who started off in banking right out of undergrad. They aren't going to be even mid-mgmt and really then to me there engineering degree and all that time working as an engineer is now a waste.

Now the title of this thread is "finance" which doesn't mean banking. Investment Banking is a very specific area of finance. If you have an MBA with an MS in engineering you should be able to get some stellar mid mgmt strategy/marketing/finance whatever roles at an actual firm making/selling things.

I'm only 25 and have been an engineer for 2.5 years so it's not like i've commited a decade of my life to it. Would you care to expand on the "mid mgmt/strategy/marketing/finance roles that you spoke of?

[RandomHero]

Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but "Investment Banking" is still an extremely broad term.

What exactly are you looking to do within Investment Banking?

If your goal is to get into Financial Analysis, a CFA designation is what most pursue.

I'm in Private Wealth Management which is completely different in terms of a career path. With that said, I interact with analysts on a regular basis. Within my company I rarely see someone with an MBA and it's simply not valuable in 99% of cases (with respect to this industry).

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by RandomHero

Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but "Investment Banking" is still an extremely broad term.

What exactly are you looking to do within Investment Banking?

If your goal is to get into Financial Analysis, a CFA designation is what most pursue.

I'm in Private Wealth Management which is completely different in terms of a career path. With that said, I interact with analysts on a regular basis. Within my company I rarely see someone with an MBA and it's simply not valuable in 99% of cases (with respect to this industry).

I wouldn't consider PWM the same as investment banking. For PWM a CFA is indeed better than a MBA. And a CFA you don't have to go to school to get (though you will have to study your ass off especially if you don't have any finance acumen).

edit: maybe you were also saying PWM is different than IB.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by pgviper

I'm only 25 and have been an engineer for 2.5 years so it's not like i've commited a decade of my life to it. Would you care to expand on the "mid mgmt/strategy/marketing/finance roles that you spoke of?

For mgmt business roles at most companies, an MBA can be important (as a qualifier) particularly if one has an engineering degree.

'Business' roles is a VERY wide umbrella because there are so many companies doing so many different things but in general business roles fall under the following buckets at most corporations:

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...fessionals.asp

I also would peruse investopedia quite a bit as it'll give you a good overview of things.


Wall Street Oasis is also a good resource (particularly if you decide to go down the IB route) : http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by RandomHero

Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but "Investment Banking" is still an extremely broad term.

What exactly are you looking to do within Investment Banking?

If your goal is to get into Financial Analysis, a CFA designation is what most pursue.

I'm in Private Wealth Management which is completely different in terms of a career path. With that said, I interact with analysts on a regular basis. Within my company I rarely see someone with an MBA and it's simply not valuable in 99% of cases (with respect to this industry).

My brother-in-law is a CFA and thats what he recommended for me to do. It is however a risky and excrutiating route to take with no guaranteed outcome. For me, escpecially since I have already started my career and I do have responsibilities, the fact that it will take at least 6 years (1.5-2 years worth of exams plus 4 years experience), it does not seem to be the best option.

The areas of IB I was looking into was of course corporate finance, M&A, Derivatives (which very much interested me) and IT.

Originally Posted by trinim3

For mgmt business roles at most companies, an MBA can be important (as a qualifier) particularly if one has an engineering degree.

'Business' roles is a VERY wide umbrella because there are so many companies doing so many different things but in general business roles fall under the following buckets at most corporations:

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...fessionals.asp

I also would peruse investopedia quite a bit as it'll give you a good overview of things.


Wall Street Oasis is also a good resource (particularly if you decide to go down the IB route) : http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/

Thanks for the link, most of the information I have found is from investopedia so it's nice to see that it is a relatively trusted resource. Ideally, finding a job and then getting them to pay for my MBA is BEST case scenario but it seems pretty unrealistic. Please see the comment I left above listing some areas of IB that hit my interest and that I will be focusing my research into.

[ejheverest]

What are your financial goals for the next 5, 10 and 20 yrs? Changing careers is a huge decision, takes time, money and tons of effort but, totally worth it if you are much happier in the end. I wanted to switch to a finance career when I was 3-4 yrs out of college, decided against it since strict savings and investing for 7-10 yrs could set me up.

We cant keep electronic technicians and electricians, they quit every 6 months for higher paying drilling companies.

Base electrician makes 135k for 6 months of work
Chief Et and Et's make 190k and 145k for 6 months of work
Electrical electronic supervisors are around 210k for 6 months of work

Food, travel is paid for so people who are determined can save a bunch if money in their 20s and 30s.

For myself, as a marine engineer, I decided that I could invest enough and buy enough rentals to change jobs later on, still retire by 50, instead of spending savings now and starting over.

Just remember most spend everything they make no matter the income level.

[BEM-S4]

You're better off doing a few years in a corp dev group, someplace like Cisco where your engineering background will be valuable. Get some deal experience. Then transition to IB as a VP or above as an industry / coverage banker. Will be a much easier road to hoe.

[RandomHero]

Originally Posted by pgviper

My brother-in-law is a CFA and thats what he recommended for me to do. It is however a risky and excrutiating route to take with no guaranteed outcome. For me, escpecially since I have already started my career and I do have responsibilities, the fact that it will take at least 6 years (1.5-2 years worth of exams plus 4 years experience), it does not seem to be the best option.

Let me ask you a very basic question: how does having an MBA show a company you can make them money?

After all, that's the basic reason why you'll get hired.....you are worth paying.


Why do you think salesmen are generally commission based? If you suck, you're not worth paying. If you are good, the incentive is to bring in more.

That's why managers/directors can make a s*** load of money. The more people you manage, the more money you will make.

That's also why there's a ton of MBA graduates teaching high school right now....their only value is to an entity that sells education.

It's a painful truth, but that's real life. The most desirable skills are the ones that can't be tought from a textbook.


Again, I recognize that an MBA can be desirable, but generally when supplemented with a technical background. It shows that you not only understand the product/service a company provides, but also how to make that product/service profitable.

EDIT- If the words I bolded in your post scare you, IB isn't a business you want to pursue. Stick to EE. EE is a steady and consistent path to spending 20 years with a company and topping out at $200k (if you're lucky). There's also nothing wrong with that, if that's what you strive for.

[Hisam135i]

Why IB? With a strong mathematical background as yours go the financial engineering route. Demand is much high and you will enjoy the complexity of the work more. Additionally pay should be higher if you get good. You can get a masters of financial engineering but most banks will hire you with the degree you already have, so you could start applying for those jobs immediately.

[Rygel XXV]

Hi OP,

Let me propose a different idea for you to consider: patent attorney.

I generally try to dissuade people from law as a profession, as it's rarely as satisfying or lucrative as public perception holds. However, one of my 3 category exceptions to this rule is for people intending to be patent attorneys, who have the cushiest professional lives I've encountered. The joke is that patent attorneys aren't really lawyers, they're engineers with law degrees. I think patent attorneys find this the funniest, since they laugh all the way to the bank.

As one real world case study, a very good friend of mine was an engineer at TI back in the day and came to the same conclusion as you with regard to financial goals. He went to law school, flunked the bar 3 times while still getting paid more money as a "pre-bar associate" than I made as a young litigator, then eventually went on to become a senior inhouse patent attorney at a company I guarantee you know. If I had to estimate his total compensation package, I'd put it at around $300K all-in. Not too shabby for someone who gets something like 6 vacation weeks a year.

Anyway, look into it. Might be a better use of your time and current skill set.

Good luck!

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by Rygel XXV

Hi OP,

Let me propose a different idea for you to consider: patent attorney.

I generally try to dissuade people from law as a profession, as it's rarely as satisfying or lucrative as public perception holds. However, one of my 3 category exceptions to this rule is for people intending to be patent attorneys, who have the cushiest professional lives I've encountered. The joke is that patent attorneys aren't really lawyers, they're engineers with law degrees. I think patent attorneys find this the funniest, since they laugh all the way to the bank.

As one real world case study, a very good friend of mine was an engineer at TI back in the day and came to the same conclusion as you with regard to financial goals. He went to law school, flunked the bar 3 times while still getting paid more money as a "pre-bar associate" than I made as a young litigator, then eventually went on to become a senior inhouse patent attorney at a company I guarantee you know. If I had to estimate his total compensation package, I'd put it at around $300K all-in. Not too shabby for someone who gets something like 6 vacation weeks a year.

Anyway, look into it. Might be a better use of your time and current skill set.

Good luck!

Hi Rygel, I actually have two contacts in this industry who have given me an inside scoop into what its like and their account of the profession is exactly how you describe! If you can (feel free to PM), could you answer the following questions:

1) What to consider when determining patent agent vs patent attorney?

2) If patent attorney, what type of physical investment is needed (years, etc...) Is this a full fledge law degree including the BAR etc...

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Rygel XXV

Hi OP,

Let me propose a different idea for you to consider: patent attorney.

I generally try to dissuade people from law as a profession, as it's rarely as satisfying or lucrative as public perception holds. However, one of my 3 category exceptions to this rule is for people intending to be patent attorneys, who have the cushiest professional lives I've encountered. The joke is that patent attorneys aren't really lawyers, they're engineers with law degrees. I think patent attorneys find this the funniest, since they laugh all the way to the bank.

As one real world case study, a very good friend of mine was an engineer at TI back in the day and came to the same conclusion as you with regard to financial goals. He went to law school, flunked the bar 3 times while still getting paid more money as a "pre-bar associate" than I made as a young litigator, then eventually went on to become a senior inhouse patent attorney at a company I guarantee you know. If I had to estimate his total compensation package, I'd put it at around $300K all-in. Not too shabby for someone who gets something like 6 vacation weeks a year.

Anyway, look into it. Might be a better use of your time and current skill set.

Good luck!

My dad works in patent law. It is indeed extremely lucrative and quite cushy, but it's highly competitive.

$300k sounds fairly low. Associates typically start out at $160k base plus bonus (and benefits), and partners make anywhere from $500k to over $1M. There's usually not much middle ground between associate-level pay and partner pay, although I suppose there are always exceptions.

The thing about patent law is that it's highly, highly recommended that you have a master's degree in engineering. My dad happens to be a PhD in EE but even he'll admit that a PhD is probably overkill.

I wouldn't recommend trying to pursue patent law with just a bachelor's in engineering. A few, really bright people may be able to cut it if they come from top ranked, prestigious engineering programs.

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

My dad works in patent law. It is indeed extremely lucrative and quite cushy, but it's highly competitive.

$300k sounds fairly low. Associates typically start out at $160k base plus bonus (and benefits), and partners make anywhere from $500k to over $1M. There's usually not much middle ground between associate-level pay and partner pay, although I suppose there are always exceptions.

The thing about patent law is that it's highly, highly recommended that you have a master's degree in engineering. My dad happens to be a PhD in EE but even he'll admit that a PhD is probably overkill.

I wouldn't recommend trying to pursue patent law with just a bachelor's in engineering. A few, really bright people may be able to cut it if they come from top ranked, prestigious engineering programs.

I have a masters of science in electrical engineering. Just contacted those that I know in the field. The more I read, the more I like. I see myself as more of a system level (big picture) type of guy as opposed to a low level tinkerer.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by pgviper

I have a masters of science in electrical engineering. Just contacted those that I know in the field. The more I read, the more I like. I see myself as more of a system level (big picture) type of guy as opposed to a low level tinkerer.

Nice. A master's in EE is far and away the best possible degree you can have if you want to make a lot of money in patent law.

Patent law cases almost always boil down to nuances. There are trickeries and ambiguities in wording that are often exploited to win cases or sometimes needlessly prolong patent law suits. Yes, it's important to have a broad, big picture knowledge base on a number of EE topics, but it's the nitty gritty details that form the heart of any given case (usually).

Of course ironing out the details is the job of whatever expert witness you hire (almost always a PhD and usually someone well-renowned from academia) but you're going to be the one questioning and cross-examining the opposing side's expert witness so you need to be facile with the details as well.

It's not necessarily hard but it can be soul-crushing work from time to time. But, the pay is absolutely phenomenal once you get past associate.

[grimlock]

+1
pgviper patent law instead of IB

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

Nice. A master's in EE is far and away the best possible degree you can have if you want to make a lot of money in patent law.

Patent law cases almost always boil down to nuances. There are trickeries and ambiguities in wording that are often exploited to win cases or sometimes needlessly prolong patent law suits. Yes, it's important to have a broad, big picture knowledge base on a number of EE topics, but it's the nitty gritty details that form the heart of any given case (usually).

Of course ironing out the details is the job of whatever expert witness you hire (almost always a PhD and usually someone well-renowned from academia) but you're going to be the one questioning and cross-examining the opposing side's expert witness so you need to be facile with the details as well.

It's not necessarily hard but it can be soul-crushing work from time to time. But, the pay is absolutely phenomenal once you get past associate.

That actually sounds pretty fun. Right now, it would be tough to go for a full fledge law degree. I am looking into the Patent Law Bar exam so that I can get a Patent Agent cert but down the line, knowing that I have the option to get another degree and further advance my career is exactly the path I am looking for.

Originally Posted by grimlock

+1
pgviper patent law instead of IB

Yes sir, much more attractive of an option and again, I have great contacts in the field. I think the best part is that as opposed to finance, my current education and experience will not be useless. Instead, it will be the backbone of a different career path. Great news!

[dc_wright]

Late to the party here, but interesting thread! Just for some background, I spent 20 years in engineering moving into various increasing steps of engineering management. In 2000 I went back to school full time while continuing to work full time to get my MBA. In parallel with that I moved out of engineering into operations, and then into program management which is the business management function in the aerospace industry. One of the transitional steps you have to make is overcoming the engineering background when you are trying to land a finance based job. Frankly, the engineering group is viewed by the bean counters as a group of misfits and trouble makers that have to be tolerated because they're a necessary function. While you've achieved much by getting your MSEE, the math ability will be the only thing applicable. It hasn't however taught you anything about FASB standards, SEC rules, general accounting practices, general ledgers, etc. It's all learning the rules from scratch. You will be up against this bias in trying to make your move, plus you will be competing with others your age that went directly into finance and simply have more years experience than you. I admire your ambition and I'm not trying to be discouraging, but it's a tough jump to make.
Moving into patent law could be a very good transition for you because your technical background does bring tremendous value to the position. I currently manage the company IP portfolio as part of my current job and I can tell you I much prefer engaging with a patent agent/attorney who understands the tech as I only have to get them to grasp our inventive material, not teach them all the engineering basics.
WRT your question on the difference between being a registered agent and an attorney, agents are allowed to create and file patents, and represent clients with the USPTO patent agents. Essentially they are the paralegals of the industry. To defend a patent in court or prosecute a patent infringement case, you must be the attorney, and if you are an effective litigator, that is where the big bucks are. :-)
Not intending this to sound like a rant, just some BTDT experience....