[RWDdrifter]

Originally Posted by 3.0L

Yes. And, I feel sorry for the 99.9% of the honest VW work force who will ultimately be the ones who pay the price in terms of layoffs, reduced or stagnant wages as the company declines, then maybe recovers.

Meanwhile, the top management will retire with handsome severance packages.

And the world continues to turn...

Yup. The impact will even ripple through the towns where the VW facilities are located (and to dealerships worldwide, not that dealers get much compassion from customers).

Fortunately, VWAG is very big and very strong. They will experience a lot of pain in the near term but should be able to recover quite well.

Maybe there's some small up-tick for the 2 series and Mini Cooper. Maybe the BMW product line will shift to capture some of VW's lost customers. Time will tell.

[David70]

Originally Posted by RWDdrifter

Maybe VW planned to deceive from the outset. I suspect that the deception wasn't so much planned as it was an ill-conceived attempt to sustain a flawed strategy. Of course, either way they are guilty and they admit it.

Given my own experience working for and with large corporations, here's a possible scenario that I think is quite plausible:

• Years ago VW decided at the highest corporate level to adopt a "clean diesel" strategy. In 2007 they began to market this strategy as their superior alternative to "hybrid". See:
  http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a2435/4237945/
• Soon all VW executives understand that this is a key strategic direction for VW, and the strategy is embraced across the business.
• Lots of development and marketing effort goes into execution of this strategy. The marketing messages stress "clean", "fuel efficient", "high torque", ...
• Between 2007 and today the emission standards got stricter (e.g., in 2009 the US adopted the stricter CA standard). Engineers at VW probably saw this problem fairly early and began to alert management. Management responds "you must fix it". Studies get done. Options get explored. None look palatable.
• Time is running out. Someone comes up with the idea to have two modes: "on road" and "on test rig". The risk of getting caught is assessed as very low.
• Someone at VW approves having the second mode. How high up the management chain? Probably very high IMO. Only they know.
• VW diesel cars ship with the illegal "on test rig" mode.
• A small study at West Virginia University stumbles upon the diesel cheat. Oops. The rest is now history.

Next time I am caught speeding I will use your line - "The deception wasn't so much planned as it was an ill-conceived attempt to sustain a flawed strategy."

Possibly correct but I am surprised they got at least the 10-20 people that VW is saying were involved (my guess is many more actually new about it) to not say anything about. Leaving the company because they found a new job, upset with the company, being threatened with firing, all would leave at least some in a position to go public with it. Time period from beginning until now is really long.

"Before you complete the paperwork on my firing I would like to remind you of a potential issue with the diesels. My guess is my pay is a drop in the bucket compared to what this will bring on the company".

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by David70

Next time I am caught speeding I will use your line - "The deception wasn't so much planned as it was an ill-conceived attempt to sustain a flawed strategy."

Hell: I may use that line the next time I have to break up with someone.

Genius!

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by DanG

By the way, Audi is involved. The A3 tdi has the same engine as the Golf diesel.

Dieselgate now also involves Porsche too.

[MightyMouseTech]

I don't get the "CO2" emission thing. CO2 is directly related to amount of fuel used, so are they just saying it does not get good enough FE?

[davis449]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Better keep your money! I spent 30 years in the industry and this is the most egregious, intentionally-deceptive, fraudulent action by any auto maker to violate regulations in several countries. The trade papers are filled with incredulity by a range of industry experts and participants at the outrageousness of what VW did. This goes beyond cover-ups of prior misdeeds, which has occurred more often (in car companies as well as in politics!!)

I know, right???? It's so effing egregious that it's killed...well...absolutely NO ONE.

Yeah...I'm, for sure, more concerned about Takata's airbag issues frankly.

[AlpsRider]

They could have made cars that would pass the emissions tests. Greed drove them to not use urea injectors because of the added cost. They wanted to falsely maintain a fuel economy and performance edge over their competition to increase market share $$$. I also find it hard to believe that over that extended time period only 10 or 20 people in the whole company knew about this. They messed up bad!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Dieselgate now also involves Porsche too.

Yep , saw it in the Belgian newspaper ...Audi and Porsche are in the same shit .

[DS_BMW]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

They could have made cars that would pass the emissions tests. Greed drove them to not use urea injectors because of the added cost. They wanted to falsely maintain a fuel economy and performance edge over their competition to increase market share $$$. I also find it hard to believe that over that extended time period only 10 or 20 people in the whole company knew about this. They messed up bad!

Yeah no way so few of them knew about it. Someone had to give it the ok.

[TheLegend]

Wonder if I can get a GTI for cheap now..

[DS_BMW]

Originally Posted by TheLegend

Wonder if I can get a GTI for cheap now..

What about a S3 or golf R for a big discount

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by TheLegend

Wonder if I can get a GTI for cheap now..

Offered my local dealer $3k under sticker. They countered with sticker. I do not own a GTI.

Dealers don't seem to have accepted their fate yet.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by davis449

I know, right???? It's so effing egregious that it's killed...well...absolutely NO ONE.

Yeah...I'm, for sure, more concerned about Takata's airbag issues frankly.

The consequences are not related to how egregious was the à priori intent to deceive. Linking them is a non sequitur.

Many, if not all, are also concerned about Takata. These are not mutually exclusive areas of inquiry.

[TheLegend]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Offered my local dealer $3k under sticker. They countered with sticker. I do not own a GTI.

Dealers don't seem to have accepted their fate yet.

I'm just surprised why VW itself hasn't offered greater incentives to get their vehicles off the lot. Incentive goes only to previous VW owners? Pretty lame, why not extend it to everyone. They're going to be hurting real bad with decline in sales and pay outs. It maybe a great time to negotiate for a used VW. However I think I'll just stick to my plan of getting a focus st or fiesta st.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by TheLegend

I'm just surprised why VW itself hasn't offered greater incentives to get their vehicles off the lot. Incentive goes only to previous VW owners? Pretty lame, why not extend it to everyone. They're going to be hurting real bad with decline in sales and pay outs. It maybe a great time to negotiate for a used VW. However I think I'll just stick to my plan of getting a focus st or fiesta st.

Resale on a VW is going to be terrible, even at a discount, I'd have been hesitant to buy. VWUSA is horribly managed, so I doubt they'll do anything to help their dealers.

[drexplode]

not sure if the word greed applies here but I fear that all of us will succumb to the word greed as a direct instigator or consumed via second hand. I work for a large German automotive supplier non-publicly traded and I see internal greed to benefit ones agenda (back pockets) at the expense of the numbered lemmings beneath their feet.

When did we start working for a bonus rather than each other? The progressives need to kick this now old school mentality out - I vote a mutiny. I can tell you the people that I lead - a scent of greed will result In an ass chewing as a first warning.

[Dackelone]

The German government threatened to BAN all these cars involved(about 3Million cars in DE) from being driven on German roads. But the government caved in, once VW AG came out with their recall plans last month.

Now, yesterday... The German government is considering raising the vehicle taxes on these cars that are in non compliance! The owners of these TDi's will have to pay much higher taxes on their cars!! This will cause everyone to dump them on the used car market. I bet most of these polluting vehicles will end up in the East Block countries.

Already a diesel owner pays about four times HIGHER annual vehicle tax that a gasoline model. Thats bc the Germans say that diesels use less fuel... so they must also support the infrastructure of road tax. Now... they are talking about raising that tax even more!

Just to give you an idea... a Gold TSi 1.6l would pay about 100 euros every year in tax. A TDi 1.4l Golf would pay about 400 euros. And every year that tax would be raised on each car. This is why most Germans do not keep a car every long. Only two or three years. Then the car gets sold off for "export" in most cases.

Dackel

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

The German government threatened to BAN all these cars involved(about 3Million cars in DE) from being driven on German roads. But the government caved in, once VW AG came out with their recall plans last month.

Now, yesterday... The German government is considering raising the vehicle taxes on these cars that are in non compliance! The owners of these TDi's will have to pay much higher taxes on their cars!! This will cause everyone to dump them on the used car market. I bet most of these polluting vehicles will end up in the East Block countries.

Already a diesel owner pays about four times HIGHER annual vehicle tax that a gasoline model. Thats bc the Germans say that diesels use less fuel... so they must also support the infrastructure of road tax. Now... they are talking about raising that tax even more!

Just to give you an idea... a Gold TSi 1.6l would pay about 100 euros every year in tax. A TDi 1.4l Golf would pay about 400 euros. And every year that tax would be raised on each car. This is why most Germans do not keep a car every long. Only two or three years. Then the car gets sold off for "export" in most cases.

Dackel

I pay 2000 Euro's of driver taxes...every single year for my ///M3 .
First time in traffic taxes (BIV) was 5000 Euro's , but now became => x 2 !
And my car is no diesel !
Because Belgium really s@cks and the government are thieves ....

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I pay 2000 Euro's of driver taxes...every single year for my ///M3 .
First time in traffic taxes (BIV) was 5000 Euro's , but now became => x 2 !
And my car is no diesel !
Because Belgium really s@cks and the government are thieves ....

I have a friend who lives in Austria. He was always paying about 750 euros in taxes on his car(yearly). Last year it went up to 1,500 euros. This year its over 2,100 euros(I think?). Its crazy how these politicians get away with passing these insane tax laws. And then there is the gasoline taxes... something like 78% of the gas prices(in Germany) are because of taxes. Crazy!!!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I have a friend who lives in Austria. He was always paying about 750 euros in taxes on his car(yearly). Last year it went up to 1,500 euros. This year its over 2,100 euros(I think?). Its crazy how these politicians get away with passing these insane tax laws. And then there is the gasoline taxes... something like 78% of the gas prices(in Germany) are because of taxes. Crazy!!!

Indeed my friend ..
If I keep my car 10 years the total sum of driver taxes is => 25,000 Euro's !
But I noticed the yearly taxes are increasing every year , so after 10 years the total sum is probably even more .
So yes , it's really crazy for us... insane !
EDIT :
That's why I said more than once on here...."God bless America"

[Ganxxta]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I don't get the "CO2" emission thing. CO2 is directly related to amount of fuel used, so are they just saying it does not get good enough FE?

From whats known until now VW 'optimized' the vehicle approval test (testing the CO2 emissions and therefore FE) like every other OEM does with low roll resistance tires, high tire pressure, tape on openings for better aero, better fuel, full battery, disabled alternator etc.
(Thats why in the EU real fuel usage averages up to 40% higher than car manufacturers claim)

But additionally to what also every other OEM is doing which is more or less allowed, they took those CO2 ratings and lowered those values again by up to 10% in the official vehicle documents.

As in the EU nobody is even testing this after approval, they were fine, and the customer didn't have to pay high taxes, as taxes are based on CO2 emissions.
And VW could easily keep their fleet CO2 level below EU regulations.

[Arcades]

I feel bad for VW.

My very first real car was an 04 Jetta GLI 1.8T and I loved the little thing. I didn't want to let it go this year when I got my M but all things must come to an end. I don't know how VW Group is going to get through this now if even the Audi and Porsche brands are now caught up in it.