[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by jaaz

I'm still not sure what the purpose of the 135i is when it's priced like that. Perhaps someone can explain it to me.

It's a car that is smaller than the E92, performs better, and is more fun to drive for less money. I have no need for a car as big as the E92. I prefer smaller cars. It's also lighter and much more nimble. More performance for less money.

It's priced 5-10k less than a 335i for the same options.

BMW cut production on the cars so there will only be 1500 or so 135i coupes coming to the US, the high lease prices are probably to scare off everyone not paying cash.

If someone wants a big luxury/sport coupe they'll pony up for a 335i, or pick up the G37.

If someone wants a smaller, more driver focused car, they'll pick up the 135i.

The 3 series is still a great car, but it's grown to 5 series proportions. Those looking for a smaller, more agile options are left with the Z4, and it's lacking in practicality. With the 1'er, you get an E46 sized back seat that's fine for short trips, and great for storage.

[jaaz]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

It's a car that is smaller than the E92, performs better, and is more fun to drive for less money. I have no need for a car as big as the E92. I prefer smaller cars. It's also lighter and much more nimble. More performance for less money.

It's priced 5-10k less than a 335i for the same options...

Whether it is more fun to drive is quite subjective. The 135i makes sense if it is really priced significantly less than a 335i, but if it's only 2-3k less than a 335i, then not so much in my opinion.

[E82tt6]

Personally, I'd take it over a 335i if it cost the same thing. It fits my needs better.

[DSXMachina]

Originally Posted by dth656

i wonder how much it costs to produce a car in germany vs. south africa vs. the plant in south carolina? if weakness in the dollar is killing margins for germany-produced cars, i'd like to know how margins are doing for the X5 and other cars that are produced in the US...

This is an interesting question because the answer is positive and negative. If a product is produced in the USA from USA sourced parts, and sold in the USA, then margins will remain the same even if the dollar is weakening.
The problem occurs when the profit dollars are transferred to Germany. Let's say BMW makes $10,000 on an X5. When a dollar was equal to the euro then BMW made 10k euros. But when the euro is worth $1.50 then BMW only makes 6667 euros. In effect, their profit has dropped 33%! Same vehicle, same assembly plant, same parts, a lot less profit.
Now imagine what happens if we get a little more realistic. The 335 is made in Germany. At one time they were able to get 40K euros for their $40K sales price. Now when they turn those same $40K into euros they only get 28K euros! Where do you suppose the profit went? Up in smoke.
It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with supply and demand at this point.

[BMWE90]

Originally Posted by dth656

well, if we're in a recession, wont demand for such cars dry up (after the initial few months of "gotta have it" excitement)? going by that logic, BMW should offer some kind of lease deals/incentives in order to move more units, correct?

I think the only reason why we might be in a recession is because we want to believe we are in a recession. It's pretty much a self-fulfilled prophecy: people hear that we are in a recession, start believing in it, spend a lot less, companies lay off more people because people spend less, and there we go, a recession. So unless you're really hurting, dont just cut down on your spending because of hear-say.

[DSXMachina]

Originally Posted by BMWE90

I think the only reason why we might be in a recession is because we want to believe we are in a recession. It's pretty much a self-fulfilled prophecy: people hear that we are in a recession, start believing in it, spend a lot less, companies lay off more people because people spend less, and there we go, a recession. So unless you're really hurting, dont just cut down on your spending because of hear-say.

Hi BMWE90; to an extent there is some truth in what you say. Mass hysteria can convince the most sane people that the sky is falling.
However, that is not the case here. There are so many critical factors aligning now that we are facing the perfect storm of financial challenges. Even the president says he is watching the economy very closely. Yeah, that's reassuring. I'm also watching it closely. What we need is something done about it. And no, dropping the prime rate is not going to make the problems go away. It only stalls the day of reckoning.
But I digress. I have always been an optimist, but also always felt I was a realist. Now I can't see any positive signs anywhere that things are going to improve. In fact, all indicators are that things are going to get far worse. Bear Stearns over the week end. Washington Mutual next? The Chinese hold a big chunk of our foreign debt. Costly foreign adventures. Loss of our manufacturing base. Unfair competition from overseas supported by American multi-nationals. Oil skyrocketing. The real estate debacle domino-ing into other areas. Oh man, I could go on and on. All that and we are in an election year which means we are going to get nothing but happy talk BS from the party in power, and attacks from the party out of power and none of it will get us one step closer to resolving this mess.
I guess this all sort of has to do with the OPs point on lease rates. BMW isn't doing it because they want to. They are doing it because they have to.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by BMWE90

I think the only reason why we might be in a recession is because we want to believe we are in a recession. It's pretty much a self-fulfilled prophecy: people hear that we are in a recession, start believing in it, spend a lot less, companies lay off more people because people spend less, and there we go, a recession. So unless you're really hurting, dont just cut down on your spending because of hear-say.

Sure that it contribute to some of the downward spiral right now, but hardly the cause of the recession.

[Heli411]

NEWS FLASH: I was told yesterday by a GM of a very large BMW dealership THAT BMW has deliberately De-Tuned the 135i !!! They didn't want to create a better performer than the 335i... I saw the 135i yesterday in the flesh, it reminds me (in a subtle way) of an amphibious car. From some angles it looked decent, trunk area was ridiculously small. I didn't find it terribly attractive and by the time you load it up with options... shoulda bought a 335i. The car they REALLY should have brought to the USA... was this one (Love the three door).

[5soko]

i got a good bit of time behind the wheel of the 135i, and coming from a 335i owner, knowing its limits and its power, the 135i is def not what people make it out to be. i think that people were HOPING for a great small rocket but like i reported in my post, its not. yes it might fit people lifestyle not needing back seats or having a small car for the city but the looks are subjective, the performance is def not amazing.

i think most 1 series owners are 1st time buyers and seem to be overwhelmed by the BMW experience.

[5soko]

btw this came out today, just backs up everything i have been saying, skidpad numbers are about the same, it changes direction quicker more nimble form its short size, and it slower. its about 2+mph down the 1/4 which shows my butt dyno was very accurate

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do.../pageId=136747

[dth656]

but wouldnt BMW hedge against such currency fluctuations? i had a friend who worked at GM treasury, and his time was spent devising elaborate hedges against currency movements. because GM sells/makes cars in so many markets, they were most concerned with reducing GM's exposure to the downside of the currency fluctuations.

that being said, i realize that no one can eliminate risk completely, but my impession is that you can hedge against a certain amount of it.

Originally Posted by DSXMachina

This is an interesting question because the answer is positive and negative. If a product is produced in the USA from USA sourced parts, and sold in the USA, then margins will remain the same even if the dollar is weakening.
The problem occurs when the profit dollars are transferred to Germany. Let's say BMW makes $10,000 on an X5. When a dollar was equal to the euro then BMW made 10k euros. But when the euro is worth $1.50 then BMW only makes 6667 euros. In effect, their profit has dropped 33%! Same vehicle, same assembly plant, same parts, a lot less profit.
Now imagine what happens if we get a little more realistic. The 335 is made in Germany. At one time they were able to get 40K euros for their $40K sales price. Now when they turn those same $40K into euros they only get 28K euros! Where do you suppose the profit went? Up in smoke.
It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with supply and demand at this point.

[E82tt6]

Dynos that have been done show that the car indubitably makes just as much power as the 335i.

I thought the detuning talk by the 335i fanboys would end when people started dynoing the car. It's flat out a better performer. Undeniably. That doesn't take anything away from the 335i. They're different car.

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by dth656

but wouldnt BMW hedge against such currency fluctuations? i had a friend who worked at GM treasury, and his time was spent devising elaborate hedges against currency movements. because GM sells/makes cars in so many markets, they were most concerned with reducing GM's exposure to the downside of the currency fluctuations.

that being said, i realize that no one can eliminate risk completely, but my impession is that you can hedge against a certain amount of it.

BMW hedges: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...&refer=germany

When Lotus was raising prices on the Elise what seemed to be about every six months, we discussed that on various forums. Now the car is $6K more than when they introduced it three years ago. They don't have the size or cash to do what BMW does and they have to pass everything along to the customer much more quickly.

[bosstones]

Dimensionally, the 1-series is not that much smaller than the current 3-series. It looks smaller because it's a little more 'stout' looking but if you compare the specs there is only marginal differences.

[5soko]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Dynos that have been done show that the car indubitably makes just as much power as the 335i.

I thought the detuning talk by the 335i fanboys would end when people started dynoing the car. It's flat out a better performer. Undeniably. That doesn't take anything away from the 335i. They're different car.

#1 its not a better performer overall in areas yes, or even subjectively more fun to drive. from the test i have seen, edmunds, road and track, C&D, the 135i either stops just as good or just a tad better, the G's being about equal always and the 135i of course with the overall length being very small having the better slalom. like i said better performer?

im not sure if this is ur 1st bmw, or you just a daily driver type of guy. i have raced in the SCCA, PDA and other events and areas for over 10 years.
i did drive the 135i like i mentioned and it is def not a better performer, and i can even say less engaging at time then the 335i.( understeer, low tone exhaust) like i did mention it performs well, but not like if it was a shotertened and lightened 335i version.

can u link us to some dynos i may have missed it, but my butt dyno def shows its not up to 335i power wise.
im sure if it was up to 335i power levels and the 135i subtracting the 200 pounds it has over the 335i, it would be faster of course.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by 5sokol335icoupe

#1 its not a better performer overall in areas yes, or even subjectively more fun to drive. from the test i have seen, edmunds, road and track, C&D, the 135i either stops just as good or just a tad better, the G's being about equal always and the 135i of course with the overall length being very small having the better slalom. like i said better performer?

im not sure if this is ur 1st bmw, or you just a daily driver type of guy. i have raced in the SCCA, PDA and other events and areas for over 10 years.
i did drive the 135i like i mentioned and it is def not a better performer, and i can even say less engaging at time then the 335i.( understeer, low tone exhaust) like i did mention it performs well, but not like if it was a shotertened and lightened 335i version.

can u link us to some dynos i may have missed it, but my butt dyno def shows its not up to 335i power wise.
im sure if it was up to 335i power levels and the 135i subtracting the 200 pounds it has over the 335i, it would be faster of course.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ight=135i+dyno

There were also a few more posted on this forum.

I have yet to see anything to suggest that it makes less power. The "2+ mph" is only valid if you compare the slowest available 135 time to the fastest available 335 time. Based on the fastest mag times for both cars (Car and Driver, in both cases), the 135i is considerably faster after 100mph, and slightly faster before then. Though mag-racing is kind of worthless in this regard. Common sense would say same power+less weight=more speed. I'm not sure why we're talking about that.

If you have any dynos showing a 335i making measurably more power than a 135i on the same dyno, I would be interested to see it!

You're the first person I've heard say that it isn't more fun to drive, but that's your opinion, not much to say about it.

It grips as well with much smaller tires, is more nimble, is as fast or faster, and brakes better. The fun to drive factor is purely subjective, so one has to draw their own conclusions is irrelevant.

I have not owned BMWs before, but I have owned other, much higher perfromance cars, not that it's terribly relevant. Not quite sure why you brought that up.

If you're of the opinion that the 335i is more fun, good for you! It sounds like you made a choice that you're happy with.

[5soko]

the 335i is no means a really fun, or good track car.

i dont have dynos of the 135, but u said u had a few? which i would intrested in. OTHER then the dynopack one which is usually always higher then other dynojet reading for comparison. i think i have offered all of my views on the cars performance aspects. but at the weight and the performance numbers i wouldnt call it a better performer. if u can drive both and anayzle there details of a PERFORMANCE drive then u can understand how exactly these cars fair.

before i even see a dyno, wouldnt u think a smaller, ligher car with the "SAME" engine would be fast or just as fast in some cases?

if u look up some of edmunds 335i vs comparisons u can see that on some days the 335i actually not only brakes better from lower and higher speeds but also had a better lat. G. but like anyone would think a -200 shorter car will have the change direction or slalom advantage.
again, taking magazine numbers are hard to do, unless u have the same conditions and or drivers.(which imo, edmunds comes closest to) but still doesnt tell the full story. from what i can see from 3-4 magazines its all a up and down game.

but i do welcome u to the bmw family and im sure this wont be your last bmw, and every minute will be very enjoyable. but driving them back to back really tells the whole story and i do urge u to do so if u havent and, really pay attention to the details.

[5soko]

135i C/D TEST RESULTS:
Curb weight: 3420 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 4.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 11.5 sec
Zero to 140 mph: 25.6 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 5.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.3 sec @ 106 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 143 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 157 ft
Roadholding, 328-ft-dia skidpad: 0.89 g


335i sedan C/D TEST RESULTS:
Curb weight: 3616 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 11.8 sec
Zero to 140 mph: 26.1 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 5.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.5 sec @ 106 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 145 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 157 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.89 g

this just goes to show the variations of speed and conditions. driving the car tells a whole different story.
better handling, better brakes, and that weight difference? and this is from the best accel times i can find for the 135i coupe. being within a .1-.5 of a difference in all accel times, is what if u ask the Editors as C/D or any other mag can be -/+ .5 any given day. i urge u to pay attention to driving details to really tell the story.

i was very close to buying the 135i, the test drive and RETARTED lease rates are keeping me away and going with the better looking 335i.

i think my thread can end here.

[E82tt6]

Personally, I don't lease. It doesn't make sense to me. You pay 40%+ of the car's value, plus interest over the course of 3 years, and are left with nothing to show for it at the end.

Based on my test drive, the 135i seemed better in every way to me. I suppose that's what makes horse races! The stiffer springs might have masked the feel of acceleration a bit. Car to car variation is also certainly an issue.

We won't know for sure on power until we get the two cars in the same place.

[5soko]

the 135i came out to about 45-46k or so.... i could get a 48-49k 335i with a good number of options for just 2-3k more! again thats on the other side for buying.

again, your statement of the 135i feeling better in everyway is a very general statement and i guess like you said this being your first bmw, it must feel like a m3.. its just new buyer thrills IMHO.

[E82tt6]

It definitely is a general statement, completely subjective.

I know when I priced out my car, the 335i was a good bit more with similar options, and ironically nearly identical lease prices!

The lease rates on the 1'er certainly are nuts. I casn't quite figure out why BMW set lease rates where they did.

[pdjafari]

they are very close matched regardless. They are so close matched that I would have to base my decision on other aspects rather than performance. Lets look at the body...

Sorry 335 wins...135 is fugly and although looks are subjective...most people (Ive seen 75% on most forums) will agree the 135 is ugly...