[conradb]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Isn't your continued participation on this BMW-orientated forum (and thread) de facto evidence of "looking back?" :

Call it naive hope that BMW will turn their shit around and make good stuff again.

[knepsterd]

BMW will lease much better than the P car

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by conradb

Call it naive hope that BMW will turn their shit around and make good stuff again.

They ARE making good stuff. You just choose to ignore it.

[Draper]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

What's interesting is how close BMW pricing on certain bread and butter models has come to Porsche's pricing. That could be one of the reasons X5 numbers are off in a big way, off by over 54% in July compared to July last year.

For example, moderately loaded X3 2.8 is within a hair of the new base Macan. Will be interesting to see how it holds up against it in the next 6 months. While X5 3.0 is now priced similar to Cayenne. While no one will argue that BMW is a premium product, I think most will also agree that BMW, for a variety of objective and subjective reasons, does not have Porsche status and cache. One has to only look at relative resale value of respective models (3 year old X5 3.0 v. 3 yo Cayenne; similar mileage) for a confirmation of an objective reason.

In the case of a reasonably spec'd M4 vert, pricing is at or above that of the new 718 Boxster S, and within a shouting distance of the new base Carrera. 😮
Buyers shopping in those price brackets are seeing the BMW pricing edge wither away faster than a recalled M differential 😉

36% more is hardly shouting distance... maybe I'm just not much of a yeller.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by greekcs

And that's why i'm moving away from BMW's. The ultimate nickel and dime machine.

Have you see the length of Porsche's options list?

To coin a phrase, "Nothing even comes close!"

[PawnStar]

Originally Posted by goj

BMWs are an expensive premium brand. There's no denying it, but I don't quite understand your Porsche comparison. Yes semi loaded to loaded BMWs approach Porsche base prices, but Porsche then nickel and dimes buyers like no other brand. All the a la cadre options add up. My dad had 32k in option on his 911 and he didn't even get everything!

Honestly your comparison of a loaded BMW approaching a base Porsche is like asking me why I got a loaded 340i instead of a near base 528 because the 5 is more opulent. It's all about personal values.

Not quite true. When you're talking thousands in options, those are predominantly luxury and/or performance options that are unique to a particular model; while BMW doesn't even offer most of any these on their cars. There's a difference.

For example, Porsche offers:

A) dozens of combinations of wheels, in different sizes and colors;
B) seats for all shapes and sizes with countless upholstery options;
C) performance options not available on BMW like Porsche Torque Vectoring technology, front axle lift system, dual mass flywheel, lowered sports suspension, dynamic engine mounts and countless other ultra high performance options well heeled enthusiasts are willing to pay for.


A base Macan customer, on the other hand, is unlikely to spend 20k on performance options. Macan comes standard with most options a typical customer would spec, save for different wheels, Navigation Module and perhaps a panoramic roof. Not dissimilar to an X3 customer. Except new 2017 X3 is now Macan money. Which is almost laughable.

Consider this:

According to historical averages, 2017 X3 35i buyer today, (with sensible options a 55-57k MSRP) will lose over 40% of the equity in his X3 after just 24-30 months of ownership. (Average trade in value of a 2015 X3 35i w/25-30000 miles $30-33k)
Compare that with trade in value for 2015 Macan S (even though Macan was/is a more powerful, better equipped base car in 2015 than X3 35i) and the picture indeed looks very different. Try 48-51k with similar miles! That's almost 50% better return on your car purchase dollars!

Which car would anyone with functioning brain cells rather buy? (leasing is irrelevant, obviously).

I can already hear the argument:

but...but...I'm not paying MSRP for X3! I can get invoice, and combine USAA and CCA and loyalty incentives to get like 10% off MSRP!

Yeah? So even if you do combine all those incentives and end up paying 51-52k for a 57k MSRP car, you'll still lose 35-40% of equity in less that 30 months of ownership.

So the only way to get a new BMW today is to lease it. (There does not appear to be a single model in current BMW line up, except M2/3/4) that retains more than 50% of its original MSRP after 36 mo according to ALG lease guide). But it wasn't always like that. Most BMWs used to hold their value pretty good. Those were the days ...

[cenix]

I wouldn't be mad if the $300 included no orange peel. Yeah right.

[StealYourFace]

When did Porsche become so hard to say that " P Car"took over as the nomenclature

[goj]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

Not quite true. When you're talking thousands in options, those are predominantly luxury and/or performance options that are unique to a particular model; while BMW doesn't even offer most of any these on their cars. There's a difference.

For example, Porsche offers:

A) dozens of combinations of wheels, in different sizes and colors;
B) seats for all shapes and sizes with countless upholstery options;
C) performance options not available on BMW like Porsche Torque Vectoring technology, front axle lift system, dual mass flywheel, lowered sports suspension, dynamic engine mounts and countless other ultra high performance options well heeled enthusiasts are willing to pay for.


A base Macan customer, on the other hand, is unlikely to spend 20k on performance options. Macan comes standard with most options a typical customer would spec, save for different wheels, Navigation Module and perhaps a panoramic roof. Not dissimilar to an X3 customer. Except new 2017 X3 is now Macan money. Which is almost laughable.

Consider this:

According to historical averages, 2017 X3 35i buyer today, (with sensible options a 55-57k MSRP) will lose over 40% of the equity in his X3 after just 24-30 months of ownership. (Average trade in value of a 2015 X3 35i w/25-30000 miles $30-33k)
Compare that with trade in value for 2015 Macan S (even though Macan was/is a more powerful, better equipped base car in 2015 than X3 35i) and the picture indeed looks very different. Try 48-51k with similar miles! That's almost 50% better return on your car purchase dollars!

Which car would anyone with functioning brain cells rather buy? (leasing is irrelevant, obviously).

I can already hear the argument:

but...but...I'm not paying MSRP for X3! I can get invoice, and combine USAA and CCA and loyalty incentives to get like 10% off MSRP!

Yeah? So even if you do combine all those incentives and end up paying 51-52k for a 57k MSRP car, you'll still lose 35-40% of equity in less that 30 months of ownership.

So the only way to get a new BMW today is to lease it. But it wasn't always like that. Most BMWs used to hold their value pretty good. Those were the days ...

Most of the options on any of these cars are all added premium or performance features. The Macan is made to be priced competitively to the X3/4 35i so that makes sense...you're arguing what you'd choose based on your values...I really don't care. And you're comment about the well equipped X3 28i being right around the price of the new regular Macan model? they're competitors if you didn't notice the prices should be similar.

What is ridiculous is you comparing a moderately loaded to loaded car like an M4 to the base price on the 911. I've been to a couple Porsche dealers and never have I seen a Carrera under 100k sticker. We are talking 15-20% higher minimum for a 911.

[PawnStar]

Originally Posted by goj

What is ridiculous is you comparing a moderately loaded to loaded car like an M4 to the base price on the 911. I've been to a couple Porsche dealers and never have I seen a Carrera under 100k sticker. We are talking 15-20% higher minimum for a 911.

It's only ridiculous if you're making stuff up.

Where did I compare M4 to base 911?

I wrote that M4 Vert was 'within shouting distance of base 911'. It is. Just because you 'haven't seen a base Carrera for less than 100k' during your visits to a 'couple of Porsche dealers' doesn't mean they do not exist.

I compared 2017 M4 Vert to 2017 718 Boxster S.

[PawnStar]

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

When did Porsche become so hard to say that " P Car"took over as the nomenclature

Covert censorship.

[goj]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

It's only ridiculous if you're making stuff up. 😉

Where did I compare M4 to base 911?

I compared 2017 M4 Vert to 2017 718 Boxster S.

Maybe I was thinking my dads 911. Regardless were talking two way different convertibles. A 425 hp GT car that does everything well and a pure bred mid engined roadster.

There are pluses and minuses of both cars and you can argue you don't need many options on a 718. But then you're talking about a German muscle car loaded with great technology like HUD and iDrive to a less equipped, slightly exotic sports car.

A more accurate assessment should be of car equipped as equally as possible. Let me tell you, I entertained the idea of a Cayman instead of my three series because of the "approachable" starting price but then 5 minutes adding must haves on the configuration tool online made it obvious that adding features that you would expect to come on a car this expensive brings the car into a higher pricing category.

[loveskiing]

Sorry to rain on a few parades but here goes:
If you think BMW is shit, why the hell are you still here?
If you think the Porsche is the best car on the planet why the hell are you still here?
If you think car prices are going to go down every year why the hell are you still here?
For me, I love my M3, think it's the shit and think it outperforms most other cars in its price point. It never fails to put a grin on my face from ear to ear...If the price of a car going up $300 is going to tweak your shit, maybe you'd be better off looking at a used Kia, or Hyundai...Just saying is all

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by ilya335

Wait until you get into a P-car, now that is the superior nickel and dime machine.

Always see people say this. They just cost more money, different price bracket.

Porsche are about the only company that doesn't force you into packages, BMW is the worst at this. Porsche options list is very long and crucial items are actually offered a la carte. If you don't want a package because of a certain element, you can go piece that package together individually without that one option.

[COBodom]

Its more like a "fun" fact. Who cares anyways ? What's $300 on a 36 month lease? $5 a month, if that ?

Yeah yeah yeah....not everyone leases a BMW....

$300 = ~dinner and drinks for two at Peter Luger

[ilya335]

That's a great point, you can really get exactly what you want with Porsche. However, the last time I checked, they said it was going to be a 6month + delivery time for a custom order.

Anything of the lot is the same deal as BMW, packages.

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Always see people say this. They just cost more money, different price bracket.

Porsche are about the only company that doesn't force you into packages, BMW is the worst at this. Porsche options list is very long and crucial items are actually offered a la carte. If you don't want a package because of a certain element, you can go piece that package together individually without that one option.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by hoyasaxa

This is disappointing. I never did understand the value of metallic paint. I find it hard to believe it costs carmakers even a fraction of what they charge (in excess of normal paint).

Agreed.

Plus the 'range' of non metallic has been scandalously reduced....black or white anyone...

[RENT-A-GOAT]

All this will do is add a bit to a monthly payment and put a bit more pressure on to build a deposit up as most BMWs are now leased this is the outcome for most. Just wish BMW would value its actual purchase customers above their rental ones maybe they will with better discounts for purchasers etc. And those of you comparing BMW cars to Porsche models obviously are oblivious to the inflated servicing and running costs over a BMW my boss owns and runs a 911 carrera 2S his servicing bills and tyre bills on the porker are sky high compared to his BMW X5M

[claykin]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

Hopefully, the extra difference in paint gets rid of the horrible orange peel.

Not a chance.

[claykin]

Originally Posted by hoyasaxa

This is disappointing. I never did understand the value of metallic paint. I find it hard to believe it costs carmakers even a fraction of what they charge (in excess of normal paint).

Some of the materials that make up the metallic flake have increased in cost. BMW routinely allows the major paint oems to bid for production. While many believe all BMWs (or models) are painted with a certain brand paint (IE BASF) it's not always the case for production units. They actually allow the majors, AkzoNobel, BASF, PPG, Axalta, etc bid for production units. Apparently, BMW could no longer absorb the cost increases.

[BklynNYBMW]

This is not good. $550 was already alot for metallic paint. There seems to be no justification for the increase. Maybe to off set the cost of all the frozen colors everyone is rushing to get (lol) (sarcasm). In any event I will have to bite the bullet when on the next toy due in 2018

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

Not quite true. When you're talking thousands in options, those are predominantly luxury and/or performance options that are unique to a particular model; while BMW doesn't even offer most of any these on their cars. There's a difference.

For example, Porsche offers:

A) dozens of combinations of wheels, in different sizes and colors;
B) seats for all shapes and sizes with countless upholstery options;
C) performance options not available on BMW like Porsche Torque Vectoring technology, front axle lift system, dual mass flywheel, lowered sports suspension, dynamic engine mounts and countless other ultra high performance options well heeled enthusiasts are willing to pay for.


A base Macan customer, on the other hand, is unlikely to spend 20k on performance options. Macan comes standard with most options a typical customer would spec, save for different wheels, Navigation Module and perhaps a panoramic roof. Not dissimilar to an X3 customer. Except new 2017 X3 is now Macan money. Which is almost laughable.

Consider this:

According to historical averages, 2017 X3 35i buyer today, (with sensible options a 55-57k MSRP) will lose over 40% of the equity in his X3 after just 24-30 months of ownership. (Average trade in value of a 2015 X3 35i w/25-30000 miles $30-33k)
Compare that with trade in value for 2015 Macan S (even though Macan was/is a more powerful, better equipped base car in 2015 than X3 35i) and the picture indeed looks very different. Try 48-51k with similar miles! That's almost 50% better return on your car purchase dollars!

Which car would anyone with functioning brain cells rather buy? (leasing is irrelevant, obviously).

I can already hear the argument:

but...but...I'm not paying MSRP for X3! I can get invoice, and combine USAA and CCA and loyalty incentives to get like 10% off MSRP!

Yeah? So even if you do combine all those incentives and end up paying 51-52k for a 57k MSRP car, you'll still lose 35-40% of equity in less that 30 months of ownership.

So the only way to get a new BMW today is to lease it. (There does not appear to be a single model in current BMW line up, except M2/3/4) that retains more than 50% of its original MSRP after 36 mo according to ALG lease guide). But it wasn't always like that. Most BMWs used to hold their value pretty good. Those were the days ...

Ya. Porsche definitely has more cache than BMW, but that'll change as I see more and more soccer-moms in high spec Porsche SUV's.