[BEM-S4]

Also when did you try to go test drive whatever car they wouldn't let you drive? I've actually had this conversation with multiple dealers - you show up during the week they automatically assume you're more serious than on a weekend.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Not quite my point, and apologies if that wasn't clear. A person is trying to gain access to a product that's highly sought after and limited in supply no matter its volume, not take a product that's readily available for anyone to grab and go. That's a big distinction -- and in that respect, sure: it is a bit like a Ferrari.

The point is access. A person needs to do what they can to enable the access -- not assume that they are entitled to that access because of whatever. The same applied to the M2 when it was first around: it's not a limited-production car, but it was in high demand and was, thus, pretty much unobtainum for those wanting to try it before buying it. Same applied to the Performance Pack VW Golf GTi -- and, as I mentioned before, Corvettes (for different reasons). It has nothing to do with what a product costs, or its production volume. It has to do with access, and again: it is up to you to do everything you can to enable that access. If one dealer won't allow it for whatever reason, good or bad, you're perfectly free to try again at another dealer.

Besides (even though it has lottle to do with the topic here): what's wrong with markups for high-demand items? That's called supply-and-demand capitalism. You may hate it, but it's free-market economics 101.

I can see your point. However, the difference between a Raptor or GT350/R and a 1M Coupe, M2, or GTS is access. M cars mentioned here weren't accessible because there weren't any at the dealers when they were released. The Fords, on the other hand, are sitting in the showrooms. I think that's the main difference here. You go to a BMW dealership and have to pay for an allocation for an M2. Naturally you cannot test drive what isn't there. While at a Ford dealership the vehicles are there, they just won't let you drive them.

I'm not going to say that a BMW dealer would let you drive an M2 under the same circumstances but I think the different situations don't allow us to compare the two.

Also, I have nothing against markups. My motto has always been, spend it if you got it. I was merely pointing out the synonymy of Ford and "off the rack"...

[Mr Carrots]

My only bad experience was with a dipshit up in Marin county who tried the old "you better come up here son, don't let me down, I'm making time to see you so return the favor" when I called up the dealership to enquire about a car - i told him I was cross shopping for a deal, and he refused to discuss incentives or MSRP discounts insisting I had to drive up there and meet with him at X time

His cringey 70s dealer high pressure shtick was revolting and I can't imagine he sells many cars , especially when the other dealers here are genuinely nice people who have given us some awesome deals. I never met him, obviously , but I pictured a Trump comb over, huge sideburns, plaid pants, cigar smells and possibly a mustache.

[Kykurnal]

Wife spent a bit of time trying to decide on a crossover after her old one was totaled. She looked at them all, from Honda to Cadillac. Had it narrowed to the Mercedes CL or Lincoln - when the Mercedes dealer offered to find one my wife was looking for and let her have it for an extended test drive - a day or two. We understand the psychology of it but agreed. After a week of no shows they stopped responding to calls.

She ended up at the BMW dealership directly across the street from the Mercedes shop and ordered herself a new X1. It took another 7 weeks to get it but it's hers and she loves it.

Thank you Mr. Mercedes Dealership.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mirob

However, the difference between a Raptor or GT350/R and a 1M Coupe, M2, or GTS is access. M cars mentioned here weren't accessible because there weren't any at the dealers when they were released. The Fords, on the other hand, are sitting in the showrooms.

As are the Corvettes -- which refines my fundamental and original point, as noted by yourself above: It's access to a high-demand item that not every person should have access to. In both of these cases, it's a high-performance vehicle that a dealer assumes a relatively high physical and monetary risk to allow someone to operate before purchase. It's perfectly reasonable, IMHO, for a dealer to restrict operational access to these only to those who are seriously considering one and who demonstrate that they are seriously considering one. That burden is on the potential purchaser, not the dealer.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

As are the Corvettes -- which refines my fundamental and original point, as noted by yourself above: It's access to a high-demand item that not every person should have access to. In both of these cases, it's a high-performance vehicle that a dealer assumes a relatively high physical and monetary risk to allow someone to operate before purchase. It's perfectly reasonable, IMHO, for a dealer to restrict operational access to these only to those who are seriously considering one and who demonstrate that they are seriously considering one. That burden is on the potential purchaser, not the dealer.

First of all, I think we are making the demand for these seem higher than what it is...unless high-demand = collecting dust in showrooms. Second of all, I don't know about you but I don't buy clothes before trying them on.

Now, I understand what you're saying, why sell a Raptor to Joe Shmoe for $65K when Rick Dumbass is willing to pay $90K for it...I have nothing against that. If a dealer is willing to sit on a vehicle for 6 months before Rick comes along, it's their prerogative.

My point is, guy didn't show up in a Dodge Dart to try to test drive a Raptor or GT350. He showed up in an M4, which is worth more used than that Raptor before markups. My point is, if one shitty salesman decides that someone shouldn't have access to a vehicle based on their appearance, than that is one shitty salesman.

I will back you up on this, however. I will not even attempt to test drive a used vehicle without having my trade-in there with me knowing they are going to want to appraise it and do a deal sheet. So I do agree with you there. One shouldn't just assume the salesman can read minds. I'm also straight forward, here's is what I have, here is what I want...if you cannot provide me with what I need, someone else can and will...

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mirob

First of all, I think we are making the demand for these seem higher than what it is...unless high-demand = collecting dust in showrooms. Second of all, I don't know about you but I don't buy clothes before trying them on.

Now, I understand what you're saying, why sell a Raptor to Joe Shmoe for $65K when Rick Dumbass is willing to pay $90K for it...I have nothing against that. If a dealer is willing to sit on a vehicle for 6 months before Rick comes along, it's their prerogative.

My point is, guy didn't show up in a Dodge Dart to try to test drive a Raptor or GT350. He showed up in an M4, which is worth more used than that Raptor before markups. My point is, if one shitty salesman decides that someone shouldn't have access to a vehicle based on their appearance, than that is one shitty salesman.

I will back you up on this, however. I will not even attempt to test drive a used vehicle without having my trade-in there with me knowing they are going to want to appraise it and do a deal sheet. So I do agree with you there. One shouldn't just assume the salesman can read minds. I'm also straight forward, here's is what I have, here is what I want...if you cannot provide me with what I need, someone else can and will...

Yep. It's not even a question about the purchase yet. It's about access -- in the car of 'vettes and the Raptor, the high demand is defined by those wanting to test drive/joyride/wring out a car that could cost the dealer considerably if anything goes, or is done, wrong.

It's the fault of paliknight for having the wrong approach to enable a test drive -- though beyond that, it's nobody fault if the salesman isn't able to filter serious buying potential well.

[pz619]

As far as car sales I've had 1 good experience, a handful of mediocre experiences (of which I bought cars from) and numerous terrible ones where I passed. Some of the lowlights exclusively from BMW dealerships.

1. Was looking for a car but couldn't decide if I wanted a 3 series or X3. Salesman literally said "look at some pictures on the website, figure it out, and let me know" then walked away. Eventually I figured it out at a different dealership that actually let me into the cars.

2. After the 3 series lease I went to look at M235is. The salesman told me "we don't normally let people take test drives on Sundays, but we'll make an exception for you". After I left he got me confused with someone else and proceeded to send me deals for M4s. I tried to correct him but had the audacity to tell me that I was the one making the mistake and I actually drove the M4 not the M235i.

3. Went to another dealer after I decided to get the M235i. The dealership (I previously bought a car here too) rolled an incredibly bad deal with a high cap cost, marked up MF, marked up acquisition fee, and tried to tell me this was best deal I could ever hope to get. Obviously all that information is readily available on this forum which they disputed it's accuracy. Since we were so far off I decided to leave which the sales manager ran out and started shouting at me "that I am shooting myself in the foot" for not taking their deal. He pretty much called me an idiot to my face. Honestly it was the probably the closest I've ever got in my adult years of getting in a fist fight with someone. A day later they had the audacity to call me asking if I was ready to buy the car. One week later I ordered the same car from Crevier BMW for $300 less per month. I actually still have the written offer from them. I like to pull it out every so often to have a good laugh.

[Alfisti]

$300 a month gap, bugger me.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Dude, you're not hearing me. You needed to demonstrate to the dealer that you were serious. If you didn't feel like doing it through appearance, then do it through words and actions. At least try to do a little convincing, man: something like "I would like to test drive a Raptor, if one's available. I really want to add it to the stable (then point to the M4)." If the salespeople don't react, go to another dealer and try again.

Just based on your posts, your general attitude screams "I make bank, and you should know that by telepathy and respect my bank!". I deal with this type every day; the city I live in is full of this kind of person. (Hell: people in Big D have this attitude even when they don't have bank.) Having money doesn't matter a whit to a Ford dealer. Demonstrating that you're serious does.

My point about suits has nothing to do with the cost of what a person dresses in to make a purchase. It has everything to do with how serious a person is taking the purchase in the eyes of the person who controls access to the purchase. At its most basic: Tailoring shows that you care; OTR RTW (off-the-rack ready-to-wear) shows that you don't. zx10guy , that example, though skewed because of the presence of your wife in business clothing, actually proves my point: the minute you proved you were serious, the salesman changed his demeanor. Would the salesman's demeanor have been more appropriate earlier if you were dressed in slacks, or selvedge jeans, or even decent jogger pants? Almost absolutely, if the salesman knows his stuff. (That point is exclusive of the salesman not knowing his stuff, obviously ... and to be honest, that likelihood is greater at Mazda and Ford dealerships.)

And I'm sorry: the point about criminals in suits and slubbies as big spenders has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You're simply trying to get in the door of a Raptor or GT350, not taking something off the rack. Nice try, but you're clutching at straws.



Now: can we get this thread back on topic, please?

I understand where you're coming from. Dealerships get people all the time walking in just to kill time. But I believe part of the sales process is to ask the key questions to the customer to determine seriousness. I walked in, told them I'm thinking about trading in my BMW for a raptor or GT350 but wanted to get a feel for both vehicles before I make a decision. They said they don't allow test drives until AFTER the purchase.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Dude, you're not hearing me. You needed to demonstrate to the dealer that you were serious. If you didn't feel like doing it through appearance, then do it through words and actions. At least try to do a little convincing, man: something like "I would like to test drive a Raptor, if one's available. I really want to add it to the stable (then point to the M4)." If the salespeople don't react, go to another dealer and try again.

Just based on your posts, your general attitude screams "I make bank, and you should know that by telepathy and respect my bank!". I deal with this type every day; the city I live in is full of this kind of person. (Hell: people in Big D have this attitude even when they don't have bank.) Having money doesn't matter a whit to a Ford dealer. Demonstrating that you're serious does.

My point about suits has nothing to do with the cost of what a person dresses in to make a purchase. It has everything to do with how serious a person is taking the purchase in the eyes of the person who controls access to the purchase. At its most basic: Tailoring shows that you care; OTR RTW (off-the-rack ready-to-wear) shows that you don't. zx10guy , that example, though skewed because of the presence of your wife in business clothing, actually proves my point: the minute you proved you were serious, the salesman changed his demeanor. Would the salesman's demeanor have been more appropriate earlier if you were dressed in slacks, or selvedge jeans, or even decent jogger pants? Almost absolutely, if the salesman knows his stuff. (That point is exclusive of the salesman not knowing his stuff, obviously ... and to be honest, that likelihood is greater at Mazda and Ford dealerships.)

And I'm sorry: the point about criminals in suits and slubbies as big spenders has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You're simply trying to get in the door of a Raptor or GT350, not taking something off the rack. Nice try, but you're clutching at straws.



Now: can we get this thread back on topic, please?

I understand your point but as some have said, the salesman by asking certain questions should be able to figure out if you're serious or not. The salesman I bought my 135i from didn't feel like I wasn't serious when I showed up in the same "outfit" I did when I went to the Acura dealer. My experience with the BMW sales guy was horrible during the negotiations and I let them know when BMW sent me a survey asking about my sales experience.

On the topic of having to show the part when visiting "high image" marques, I go back to my experience buying my Ducati. The sales guy never thought I wasn't serious about buying. I was able to negotiate a discount from them when I've heard traditionally they don't do much negotiation. Was real funny when I was out on a ride with another Ducati rider and he tells me about his buying experience. He bought his bike from the same dealer and the same sales guy. The sales guy wouldn't budge off of MSRP. I got him to come down $500 that involved him searching the now scarce inventory of that model year for a pearl white. He was able to find one still crated at the Ducati east coast warehouse and brought it down to me. I also got him to throw in the rear solo cowl for free. And the funny thing was when I was wrapping up the paper work, I mentioned if I could also get some Ducati shwag. So I ended up walking out with a free Ducati hat too. Oh and because of my anal retentiveness, Ducati changed suppliers of the wheels for their superbikes mid model year that year. The bike I received didn't have the Brembo/Marchisini wheels. I asked if I could get the Marchisini wheels off the last remaining 848 they had on the floor. He agreed if I paid the labor to swap the wheels.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by paliknight

I understand where you're coming from. Dealerships get people all the time walking in just to kill time. But I believe part of the sales process is to ask the key questions to the customer to determine seriousness. I walked in, told them I'm thinking about trading in my BMW for a raptor or GT350 but wanted to get a feel for both vehicles before I make a decision. They said they don't allow test drives until AFTER the purchase.

Just speculating BUT... how often do you think they get someone cross shopping those two? You may very well have use for either but that's just a really, really weird combo. It's not like you had the M4 and went to a Benz dealer and asked to drive a C43 and C63 coupe as a replacement which would be a perfectly logical thing to do. Raptor and Mustang, aside from both being animal names, have literally nothing in common. Knowing nothing else about your car needs you've gotta admit that just looks like someone coming in to drive the new expensive stuff and have fun.

[Benstuck]

Father was in the market for a 2017 MB GLS. We went to Greenway MB, didn't have any in stock, then went to Sugarland MB. They had a few but not one in the particular color my father wanted. Sales guy tried real hard to sell him the ones he had on the lot saying he is the only dealer in Houston area who had them in stock. We said no thanks, went to north Houston MB off 1960 and they had at least twenty on the lot. Dad found the one he liked, the sales and GM were nice and drove home happy.

That sugarland guy was ridiculous and so fake.

[RABAUKE]

I was thinking about buying a Mustang a few years back. I went to a dealership and took a test drive. It was a weekday mid afternoon, I quite liked the car and we were back in the sales guy cubical and were talking numbers which were in the zone. So the sales guy say to me shall we write this up and I replied that I really liked the car but would have to come back with my wife so she could have a look, go for a test drive as this was an expensive purchase we'd have to both be on board with it. The sales guy actually said to me at this point "who wears the pants in your house"?

So are said, "you didn't just say that did you"? I got up and walked out with him chasing me out the door. He was still rambling on that I should just do the deal as I drove away. I bought a mustang later in the week from another dealer in the area. What a dick, I have to think he'd tried that line before and it must have worked.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yep. It's not even a question about the purchase yet. It's about access -- in the car of 'vettes and the Raptor, the high demand is defined by those wanting to test drive/joyride/wring out a car that could cost the dealer considerably if anything goes, or is done, wrong.

It's the fault of paliknight for having the wrong approach to enable a test drive -- though beyond that, it's nobody fault if the salesman isn't able to filter serious buying potential well.

The sales rep flat out said they don't allow test drives in the first 30 seconds of meeting him. We barely exchanged pleasantries and as soon as I asked about those two vehicles he said that. I told him I was planning on trading in my car for those two but I'm not buying a car without at least test driving it. Let alone two cars.

[Vigilante375]

Negative notes:

Years ago (in 2006) I was looking at trading in my 02 WS6 (400+ rwhp) for a used 06/07 Grand Cherokee SRT8. Went to the dealership and started talking with a sales guy. This cat was completely ignoring me and my questions. I just left and my buddy went to the same dealership that same week and said the same sales person gave him and his wife the keys to the SRT8 and told them to go for a test drive.

Looking for a new 06 GTO (in 2006), I found a dealership with something like 8 on their lots. When I went there and started looking, every single one had a $10k markup. I asked the sales guy and he said it's because it's the last year model. I just laughed and walked away. There were plenty more at other dealers selling for MSRP or below. They didn't have 5 or more at each dealer but they weren't being stupid with the markup BS.

The wife and I went to a Ford dealership in 2011 looking at a new 5.0 Mustang to replace my totaled 06 GTO. The sales guy was nice but kept going back to his sales manager which was a total moron. Told him what I wanted and gave me some lines. Even told me that we couldn't test drive the car, let alone look inside the car because it's a "$35k" car. I laughed and told him "And?" Finally we left and I told him that if I wanted to, I could have bought the GT500 that has been sitting on your floor for nearly a year.

Positive notes:

Same time the wife and I looked at the new 2011 5.0, we went to a Chevy dealer to look at a new Camaro SS. A couple of sales guys were sitting outside, we talked and said what we were doing. 1 guy said car is unlocked, if you want to go on a test drive, just let me know.

Later we moved to Washington and looked at the 135i. Sales guy was polite and helpful. Asked if we wanted to go on a test drive and did so with a 135i (that was about to be sold) and needless to say, we purchased a 135i from the dealership because of the easy experience.

Toyota....we've bought a Camry and Tundra from them using the Costco Auto Program. We had our price and bought the vehicles with no hassle.

[Never_Enough]

I have so many. Back in 2011 I had a new CTS-V for an extended test drive. I went to the Ford dealer in it to drive a used GT500 they had. They acted like it was a rare exotic & would not let me drive it. I laughed at the manager & left.

Back in 2010 or so, I was looking for a 335. I was at a BMW dealer in North Jersey sitting down with the salesman after the test drive, trying to make the deal. He was a rude ahole and started to literally not answer me at all. I ask for the manager & still nothing. I see him & get up to go talk to him myself & this salesman says "I wouldn't do that." Excuse, me? Are you threatening me you POS? Anyway, the manager proceeded to add on bs "doc fees" & would not remove them so I left. They can keep the car.

Another time at an Infiniti dealer, with my buddy who was looking to maybe buy a G35/37, we get saddled with the idiot salesman they starts telling us the G is a fast car & we can't drive it LMAO! We rolled up in my almost new Speed6 at the time that could wax the G. We laughed at him & bounced. I made sure he heard my turbo spool & the BOV.

[E92inNC]

Around 2008 I was looking at the first gen TSX and there were only a few manuals around my area.

One was at a Scottsdale Infiniti dealership and they advertised it on Autotrader for $16k which became $18k after the test drive because of "added value" for paint protection and other nonsense which I already knew is BS. Long story short they wanted me to put $2k down and $500/month for 60 months and I smiled at them and walked out. I also took the credit app with me so they wouldn't be able to run my credit and they called an hour later saying to come back and return it for "legal reasons" and they try to get me a better deal once I come back in. I laughed and told them it was in pieces and which trash bin it was in so they could go get it.

Second TSX I found was at a VW dealership about 50 miles away and after the test drive I got them to put in on the lift so I could check it out since the guy seemed like he didn't know what the hell he was talking about the entire time. I pretty knew what to look for since I was working as a lube tech for Honda at the time while going to school. Found two leaking shocks and a few other minor things that I said they needed to replace before I buy it. The next day the guy leaves me a voicemail saying they did all this stuff to it and addressed all of my concerns and wanted me to come back in for the paperwork. Then at the end he went on for 30 seconds about the rear differential. Needless to say I didn't waste my time driving back there.

[08njSTEP]

A guy I work with wanted me to go with him to buy a Honda 3 weeks ago. The promo was sign and drive for $199/mo. We test drive a civic. He liked it and decided to buy the black car we tested. He calls his insurance with vin and I left. 45 min later he calls me and says new car is blue. Payment is not $199 but $350. Gets car home and realized not the same option package as black car. We return next day. Manager all apologetic for mistake. Going to make it right. I tell buddy to drop the $40/mo gap insurance. We work at a body shop so no need for it. The manager also stated 1st payment is free. No tricks the lease payment is 35 months not 36. Asked about cancelling gap insurance and was told can drop it anytime, but buyer should really think about it during the free month.

We get to contract and yup 36 payments. Called about gap next day and yes you can cancel, but the payment doesn't change(you get a check in 3 years). So they really played all the games. Bait and switch, Shell game, and straight lie.

Just glad it wasn't me. Autofair Honda in Manchester, NH. Really never seen anything like it. There is more shenanigans but you get the picture.

[wdb]

That wins slimy dealer story of the month.