[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by palpatine_us

The real problem isn't design, but value. A moderately optioned 330i comes in well over $50k- paying extra for safety items which are pretty much standard on all economy cars now- such as Hondas and Toyota.

$1700 for a backup camera and $1700 more for blind spot monitors. Seriously?

I can't justify feeding the BMW beast anymore.

That's why you spec the car with none of those goodies!

[BMW F22]

Originally Posted by palpatine_us

The real problem isn't design, but value. A moderately optioned 330i comes in well over $50k- paying extra for safety items which are pretty much standard on all economy cars now- such as Hondas and Toyota.

$1700 for a backup camera and $1700 more for blind spot monitors. Seriously?

I can't justify feeding the BMW beast anymore.

Originally Posted by palpatine_us

The real problem isn't design, but value. A moderately optioned 330i comes in well over $50k- paying extra for safety items which are pretty much standard on all economy cars now- such as Hondas and Toyota.

$1700 for a backup camera and $1700 more for blind spot monitors. Seriously?

I can't justify feeding the BMW beast anymore.

Yeah, it's something I don't understand.

- BMW is not Porsche, yet charges Porsche prices
- BMW makes cars that are softer and more MB and Lexus like yet charges higher prices

So basically they lost the BMW magic yet their prices keep going up and up. Not quite as comfortable as MB or Lexus, not quite sporty as Porsche (or even BMWs of yesteryear). I don't even know what to make of it...

[impulsE89]

Those are significant drops. The SUV is saving BMW, Ironic!
As bsas340i has said, Few people care much about ultimate driving machines anymore, and who needs a $55k bland looking 4dr, in white or black with high maintenance and low resale value.
it is also ironic that the Germans stepped in and made their image and created a great market when we were struggling with new eco mandates and low tech, low quality boring cars. Now the Germans have the Euro/Eco mandates and the high labor, energy costs to deal with, and competition is capable and aggressive.
American Japanese and Korean cars are very good cars now that drive pretty well. Horsepower is available. Accords do 0-60 in about 5 seconds. and have 100,000 mile spark plugs and shocks that last the life of the car and very up to date tech audio, and safety. The service departments give you a loaner for an oil change and call you when its ready and text you a photo of your worn out brake pads that should be replaced or take you back and introduce you to the tech.
I am wondering how are Audi, Mercedes, Lexus sales doing, anyone know?

[bsas340i]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

Yeah, it's something I don't understand.

- BMW is not Porsche, yet charges Porsche prices
- BMW makes cars that are softer and more MB and Lexus like yet charges higher prices

So basically they lost the BMW magic yet their prices keep going up and up. Not quite as comfortable as MB or Lexus, not quite sporty as Porsche (or even BMWs of yesteryear). I don't even know what to make of it...

That's what I was trying to say. We pay closer attention to BMW but I don't think they lost their magic. I think that they have definitely adjusted but everybody else did too.


- Mercedes now sells a FWD CLA which they market as an entry level car below the C class which was their most affordable option. The C class was true to its segment aside from some changes throughout their life cycle. Just like BMW, they saw a gap on the X6 segment and made a car that looks very much like it. Did we forget about the R-Class? A Mercedes Benz minivan. I'm sure that Fangio or Stirling Moss didn't see that coming from the brand that made their F1 cars.

- Audi has released a lot of great cars with an emphasis on performance. Their Quattro system plays a big role on the stats that the US mostly cares about: 0-60 and quarter mile. They also make something called a Q3 and they are part of the VW Group which was involved in one of the biggest automotive fiascos in history.

- Porsche... they made the wonderful 918 Spyder and the new, outrageous GT2 RS that laps the Nordschleife a full minute and 10 seconds faster than an M2. Yet, we can say that the company almost went belly up after the 996 became water-cooled and the boxster didn't generate enough sales/profitability. The Cayenne ended up rescuing the brand with quite possibly the most racing heritage in history. This was an SUV that shared a platform with a VW Touareg. They adjusted. Yes, the 911 arguably still looks the same after 53 years, but they have gone through changes that drove the purists crazy, and guess what. Even though some people complain, the 911 is a huge success regardless of no longer offering a naturally aspirated engine. The Boxster or Cayman or 718 or whatever they wish to call it now, can be spec'd to be over $100,000. It's a 4 cylinder convertible that sits two people. (We complain about the 3-Series being expensive). Also, one SUV wasn't enough either. They have the Macan now. So, the purists who drive an air-cooled 911 with a manual transmission might say that none of these cars are true Porsches. On the other hand, is Porsche selling more cars and making more money? You bet.

- Ford makes a 4 cylinder Mustang, Again! They can also charge you 6 figures for a pick-up truck nowadays.

- Lamborghini, Maserati and Bentley have SUVs.

- Even Lexus is upsetting their older crowd with their new design language, more reminiscent of Japanese cartoons. Have you seen those grilles and pointy front bumpers?

- Honda, superb engineering. They revolutionized the industry with compact, lightweight cars that were affordable, would run forever and were easy to modify. They stopped making cars for enthusiasts, too. Dropped the high-revving cars: Integra, the true 2-liter Civic Si, RSX, S2000) and they made a Ridgeline (a Japanese Chevy Avalanche), a Honda Element, an Accord Crosstour. They now released the new Civic Type R which is a welcome offering for our market, even though the styling is suitable for ages up to 17 years old (IMHO).

- The same goes for Toyota, the first or second biggest car maker in the world, depending on which day you look at it. They are the kings of boring cars. Nothing exciting from Toyota after the Supra or even the Celica GT-S hatchback. Just millions and millions of Camrys and Corollas flooding the streets because they never break or depreciate much either. The FR-S or 86 was also welcome and due for a while.


I can go on for a while and bore every reader to death but the point is, every manufacturer has a common denominator: The dollar sign. They will do what they think will generate more sales and profits. If the enthusiast base keeps shrinking, representing a tiny percentage of their market share, they will keep making changes that we don't appreciate. Again, we have a choices, more than ever before. I still choose to own a BMW.

Cheers

[Nahlem]

Hmm interesting numbers, probably next month will be positive numbers and the show goes on like that.

But i do believe BMW is falling behind because of their slow way of adapting to the new market, we are starting to see shifts towards fossil free cars more people are choosing electric cars and the supposed ban on diesels that is coming is probably putting people off from buying diesels and such.

Witch this seems to be showing. Now we don't have exact numbers of how much of what engine is selling the most i still believe the diesels are a strong selling point in BMW brand but people are starting to question it, and BMW still haven't released an full electric sedan with at least 450-550 km in one charge. And with "Normal" looks so to speak. Even though looks are a matter of personal taste.

Also as many have mention BMW is overcharging tech on their cars, stuff that are so called "Safety" features of a car should pretty much always be standard with no extra charge, the backup camera should also be standard most brands have it today as standard.... hell we even have it as a standard option on our cars at work and they have the screen built in to the rear view mirror looking techy and cool as hell. And once you put it in to gear it turns in to a regular rear view mirror. And BMW should probably stop messing with the warranties and the so called service on their cars, Maybe adding a 5 year new car warranty on them will bring back some customers when it comes to older people they might not want to buy BMW because of the limited warranty on their cars and with all the "new" tech they might get unsure if it breaks down how much will it cost them when out of warranty?

I know that my friends grand parents chose a KIA over the BMW for exact those reasons, A much more secure ownership of the car and now having to worry to much if something breaks down they still have 4 years warranty left on it.

But i guess we will see what happens in November we are probably gonna have a post that says BMW Brand up by 44% or such so.

[BMW F22]

Originally Posted by bsas340i

That's what I was trying to say. We pay closer attention to BMW but I don't think they lost their magic. I think that they have definitely adjusted but everybody else did too.


- Mercedes now sells a FWD CLA which they market as an entry level car below the C class which was their most affordable option. The C class was true to its segment aside from some changes throughout their life cycle. Just like BMW, they saw a gap on the X6 segment and made a car that looks very much like it. Did we forget about the R-Class? A Mercedes Benz minivan. I'm sure that Fangio or Stirling Moss didn't see that coming from the brand that made their F1 cars.

- Audi has released a lot of great cars with an emphasis on performance. Their Quattro system plays a big role on the stats that the US mostly cares about: 0-60 and quarter mile. They also make something called a Q3 and they are part of the VW Group which was involved in one of the biggest automotive fiascos in history.

- Porsche... they made the wonderful 918 Spyder and the new, outrageous GT2 RS that laps the Nordschleife a full minute and 10 seconds faster than an M2. Yet, we can say that the company almost went belly up after the 996 became water-cooled and the boxster didn't generate enough sales/profitability. The Cayenne ended up rescuing the brand with quite possibly the most racing heritage in history. This was an SUV that shared a platform with a VW Touareg. They adjusted. Yes, the 911 arguably still looks the same after 53 years, but they have gone through changes that drove the purists crazy, and guess what. Even though some people complain, the 911 is a huge success regardless of no longer offering a naturally aspirated engine. The Boxster or Cayman or 718 or whatever they wish to call it now, can be spec'd to be over $100,000. It's a 4 cylinder convertible that sits two people. (We complain about the 3-Series being expensive). Also, one SUV wasn't enough either. They have the Macan now. So, the purists who drive an air-cooled 911 with a manual transmission might say that none of these cars are true Porsches. On the other hand, is Porsche selling more cars and making more money? You bet.

- Ford makes a 4 cylinder Mustang, Again! They can also charge you 6 figures for a pick-up truck nowadays.

- Lamborghini, Maserati and Bentley have SUVs.

- Even Lexus is upsetting their older crowd with their new design language, more reminiscent of Japanese cartoons. Have you seen those grilles and pointy front bumpers?

- Honda, superb engineering. They revolutionized the industry with compact, lightweight cars that were affordable, would run forever and were easy to modify. They stopped making cars for enthusiasts, too. Dropped the high-revving cars: Integra, the true 2-liter Civic Si, RSX, S2000) and they made a Ridgeline (a Japanese Chevy Avalanche), a Honda Element, an Accord Crosstour. They now released the new Civic Type R which is a welcome offering for our market, even though the styling is suitable for ages up to 17 years old (IMHO).

- The same goes for Toyota, the first or second biggest car maker in the world, depending on which day you look at it. They are the kings of boring cars. Nothing exciting from Toyota after the Supra or even the Celica GT-S hatchback. Just millions and millions of Camrys and Corollas flooding the streets because they never break or depreciate much either. The FR-S or 86 was also welcome and due for a while.


I can go on for a while and bore every reader to death but the point is, every manufacturer has a common denominator: The dollar sign. They will do what they think will generate more sales and profits. If the enthusiast base keeps shrinking, representing a tiny percentage of their market share, they will keep making changes that we don't appreciate. Again, we have a choices, more than ever before. I still choose to own a BMW.

Cheers

Originally Posted by bsas340i

That's what I was trying to say. We pay closer attention to BMW but I don't think they lost their magic. I think that they have definitely adjusted but everybody else did too.


- Mercedes now sells a FWD CLA which they market as an entry level car below the C class which was their most affordable option. The C class was true to its segment aside from some changes throughout their life cycle. Just like BMW, they saw a gap on the X6 segment and made a car that looks very much like it. Did we forget about the R-Class? A Mercedes Benz minivan. I'm sure that Fangio or Stirling Moss didn't see that coming from the brand that made their F1 cars.

- Audi has released a lot of great cars with an emphasis on performance. Their Quattro system plays a big role on the stats that the US mostly cares about: 0-60 and quarter mile. They also make something called a Q3 and they are part of the VW Group which was involved in one of the biggest automotive fiascos in history.

- Porsche... they made the wonderful 918 Spyder and the new, outrageous GT2 RS that laps the Nordschleife a full minute and 10 seconds faster than an M2. Yet, we can say that the company almost went belly up after the 996 became water-cooled and the boxster didn't generate enough sales/profitability. The Cayenne ended up rescuing the brand with quite possibly the most racing heritage in history. This was an SUV that shared a platform with a VW Touareg. They adjusted. Yes, the 911 arguably still looks the same after 53 years, but they have gone through changes that drove the purists crazy, and guess what. Even though some people complain, the 911 is a huge success regardless of no longer offering a naturally aspirated engine. The Boxster or Cayman or 718 or whatever they wish to call it now, can be spec'd to be over $100,000. It's a 4 cylinder convertible that sits two people. (We complain about the 3-Series being expensive). Also, one SUV wasn't enough either. They have the Macan now. So, the purists who drive an air-cooled 911 with a manual transmission might say that none of these cars are true Porsches. On the other hand, is Porsche selling more cars and making more money? You bet.

- Ford makes a 4 cylinder Mustang, Again! They can also charge you 6 figures for a pick-up truck nowadays.

- Lamborghini, Maserati and Bentley have SUVs.

- Even Lexus is upsetting their older crowd with their new design language, more reminiscent of Japanese cartoons. Have you seen those grilles and pointy front bumpers?

Cheers

The main difference between BMW and the rest of the automakers is that the latter have been doing what they do best. BMW has not been doing what they're known for - making ultimate driving machines.

[autoart]

As of today on autotrader, BMW still has 36 new 2016 7 series for sale at 0-20% off. I cant believe they still have 2016's when the 2018's are out.

[Bimar]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

The main difference between BMW and the rest of the automakers is that the latter have been doing what they do best. BMW has not been doing what they're known for - making ultimate driving machines.

Looking at the current trends, BMW is making general cars for the masses but for the semi enthusiast we have the 40i/50i M performance part models and then the full //Ms, I think they are catering accordingly. It’s just you cannot get an ultimate driving machine at normal specs anymore, eg the new 5 series is soft like a Merc.

[Laki021]

In a few days, we will get the new record breaking global numbers, that's what really matters.

[JDMAF]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

Yeah, it's something I don't understand.

- BMW is not Porsche, yet charges Porsche prices
- BMW makes cars that are softer and more MB and Lexus like yet charges higher prices

So basically they lost the BMW magic yet their prices keep going up and up. Not quite as comfortable as MB or Lexus, not quite sporty as Porsche (or even BMWs of yesteryear). I don't even know what to make of it...

totally nailed it imo. To this day I am sooo disgusted that I have a 6 month old $60k car that does NOT have a backup camera like my 4 year old Honda pilot and the two subarus I have owned in the past 4 years. I assumed it would be there but I was wrong. My fault yes. But really BMW - a company that expects to stay current and compete needs to build these features into its cars automatically. Otherwise what you get is what you got: a non competitive brand that looses customers. Also my Msport 6speed MT with MPPSK is only mildly sporty and frankly a bore most of the time. Yes its a good car. But it is not nearly a great car. Overpriced and disappointing is not a good business model. BMW is in trouble. Their leadership needs to rethink the number of models and the over abundance of mediocrity.

[bavarian19]

But SUV sales drive the market!

[bavarian19]

... and my wife's $35k van comes with so many safety items 'standard' that BMW refuses to put on as standard.


As many have stated, there is no value any more. There is no magic in driving dynamics unless you go top model or M. If there is nothing that makes it special, then sales will go down, as they have been doing.

[bsas340i]

Originally Posted by X4guy

Looking at the current trends, BMW is making general cars for the masses but for the semi enthusiast we have the 40i/50i M performance part models and then the full //Ms, I think they are catering accordingly. It’s just you cannot get an ultimate driving machine at normal specs anymore, eg the new 5 series is soft like a Merc.

Because whether we like it or not, it's more profitable to sell to the masses than to sell to a small niche. Being realistic too, BMW is still a premium product that the masses can't necessarily afford. The median household income in the US is roughly $60k a year. The low rate financing, BMW Select option and attractive lease programs make it easier for the average folk to get into these cars. However, that doesn't mean that everyone that drives one has made a good financial decision considering their income.

Where I come from, to drive a BMW, you have to have money. There is no "sign and drive", lease for $399 a month and none of that. The only way to have access to a brand new BMW is to have at least 50% of the car's price in cash to even start talking at a desk where they tell you which cars they have coming in the next 6 months and you pick the one that you like best. There isn't 150 BMWs available for you to test drive, a chef making you an omelette while you wait in the lounge, you don't take the car home a few hours later after signing a couple pieces of paper. We have it way too easy here. If BMW AND other brands appeal to a broader market, they have to sell those cars that some of us would never buy.

Personally, I don't agree that they don't sell the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore. If we complain about the back up camera not being present a BMW but available at no cost on the new Corolla. Does that make the car DRIVE better? It doesn't. That's what people want now. They want the back-up camera, the blind spot detection, the self-braking aids, etc... Some will argue that it's all safety but I also see a laziness factor somewhere hidden in there. Less interest in driving and more interest in gadgetry. We all want comfort and extra features (admittedly I do too) and that's what BMW has been giving us. I don't see many people driving a basic 230i M Sport with a manual transmission... where are those hardcore enthusiasts? I don't see flocks of the new 2200-pound Miata on the street. I do see a ton of CX-5s, though.

We all look back at the glory days. I do too. Even though the E30 M3 is now priced like a small house and given a big boost by the car media revering its rawness and "feel". The most basic 230i will probably be faster, more fuel efficient, more comfortable and safer.

The 5-Series isn't soft, drive it on a track against any of its competitors and I guarantee you that you'll pick the BMW. We can argue that the whole segment has become "softer" because it's what people want. The average age of a new 5-Series buyer isn't 25-30. The age group buying that car want a capable machine but they also want comfort and quietness because they are NOT taking it to the track.

The current M3 and M4 are still kicking ass to a competition that has to revert to bigger engines, AWD or cup-like tires like the Alfa in order to be at the same level. BMW gave us a straight 6 again with a lot more torque than the outgoing V8 (yes, it's missing the soundtrack, it all can't be perfect), a light weight car when every other car in the class keeps getting porkier and an available MANUAL transmission. On top of everything, being out for several years now, can't we say that it has also been fairly reliable? That qualifies as the Ultimate Driving Machine to me.

It doesn't hurt to state once again, this is a forum and everyone is entitled to an opinion. We can agree to disagree. I don't mean to offend anybody, the above is just my point of view.

Cheers!

[Gruntion]

All things considered, -5.1% year-over-year sucks but without seeing the actual P&L I'd guess their revenue numbers are still quite competitive. I only say that because their incentive programs, mark-ups and financing seem to tell a different story than the numbers above. If you view just these unit sales numbers juxtaposed to their marketing and sales strategy, I'd guess BMW knows something we don't and is not as concerned (= don't bet on huge Q4 incentives). As others have said, maybe they are trying to "shore up" their market share in premium luxury as they ready to bombard the market with new offerings over the next 12 months. Staples like the 5 series and X5 are selling well. Shortfalls in other areas are tempered by old design and tech. Yeah, I'd bet they are less concerned than one would think.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by bsas340i

We all look back at the glory days. I do too. Even though the E30 M3 is now priced like a small house and given a big boost by the car media revering its rawness and "feel". The most basic 230i will probably be faster, more fuel efficient, more comfortable and safer.

The 5-Series isn't soft, drive it on a track against any of its competitors and I guarantee you that you'll pick the BMW. We can argue that the whole segment has become "softer" because it's what people want. The average age of a new 5-Series buyer isn't 25-30. The age group buying that car want a capable machine but they also want comfort and quietness because they are NOT taking it to the track.

The current M3 and M4 are still kicking ass to a competition that has to revert to bigger engines, AWD or cup-like tires like the Alfa in order to be at the same level. BMW gave us a straight 6 again with a lot more torque than the outgoing V8 (yes, it's missing the soundtrack, it all can't be perfect), a light weight car when every other car in the class keeps getting porkier and an available MANUAL transmission. On top of everything, being out for several years now, can't we say that it has also been fairly reliable? That qualifies as the Ultimate Driving Machine to me.

It doesn't hurt to state once again, this is a forum and everyone is entitled to an opinion. We can agree to disagree. I don't mean to offend anybody, the above is just my point of view.

Cheers!

This! Why I bought a 230i with only performance options! Also...yes as terribly soft as they feel on the road, they are for sure better when pushed. And yes, the M cars are amazing...I just can't justify 2 cars or 18k miles on an M car...so I do BMW schools to keep me happy!

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

The main difference between BMW and the rest of the automakers is that the latter have been doing what they do best. BMW has not been doing what they're known for - making ultimate driving machines.

I would argue that 60% of BMW owners don't care about that. Without those sales BMW would get absorbed by someone else.

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by bsas340i

Aside from the argument of pure sales versus tradition and staying true to the core values of the brand (which can go on forever), there's no doubt that BMW is very smart. The economy had its ups and downs in the last 20 years and they have always adjusted to remain very profitable. Many times as the sales leader within the German competition. Car sales have been steadily going up year after year. It's okay if we hit a plateau and sales decrease as long as those percentages and fluctuations are within reason (which they are).

Reality is that the enthusiast base is getting smaller and smaller. We are the minority when it comes to purchasing a car. My dad's generation couldn't wait to get a license, same thing with my generation. The current generation is just not interest in driving. The car was a symbol of independence and freedom. I got my license the day of my birthday, I could not wait to start driving, as I'm sure was the case with many of you. Nowadays, there is a much bigger percentage of young people that couldn't care less about driving. Their new symbol of independence is a smart phone (which most get way before their legal driving age). The world in their hands. Communication, internet, videos, music, etc... Of course most of it is isolated, at least the way I see it. But it's there and it's not going away.

BMW and other manufacturers see this, that's why there is a shift in their product line-up. That's why we see front wheel-drive, that's why we see SUVs, that's why we see less and less models with manual transmissions. There's a reason why the X3 and the X5 keep getting closer to outselling the 3 and 5 Series. Needless to say, women also have a lot more influence on vehicle purchase vs many years ago. I don't have any statistics but I'm positive that the percentage of BMW female buyers has seen an important increase in the last decade.

I love the brand, I'm an enthusiast. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything they do. I read a lot bashing here consistently and I don't understand it. We have choices, if you can afford a BMW, you can afford a Mercedes, an Audi, plus other premium brands available. The truth is, time cannot be turned back. Manufacturers have to do what they have to do to remain profitable in business. Some deviate more than others but ALL of them adjust. Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Some of you might agree, some of you will not.

Cheers!

The problem with your theory is younger people don’t buy premuium cars.

Those of us who couldn’t wait to get our license are still driving, and as a group have more money than ever before.

I’ve owned many bmw’s in the past. I currently own other sports cars. BMW no longer makes a car that interests me. I have zero interest in electrified cars, and for the price of a well optioned M4 I’d rather have a stingray for less money.

[Matski]

It always amuses me that there is a VW Jetta in the shot of BMW NA headquarters that's used for these threads!

[bsas340i]

Originally Posted by turbo8765

The problem with your theory is younger people don’t buy premuium cars.

Those of us who couldn’t wait to get our license are still driving, and as a group have more money than ever before.

I’ve owned many bmw’s in the past. I currently own other sports cars. BMW no longer makes a car that interests me. I have zero interest in electrified cars, and for the price of a well optioned M4 I’d rather have a stingray for less money.

I completely understand. Zero interest on electric cars here, too. I cringe every time I hear people talking about Tesla and how great it is. The Corvette has a lot of pluses and just like the M division has a very rich racing history. At that price point, there are MANY attractive options because needless to say, it is a lot of money. There are pros and cons between the two cars and everyone is different so what matters is how those pros/cons balance out to you.

Yes, younger people usually don't buy premium cars but the trend towards interest for gadgets vs powertrain is already skewed towards the "toys" and it's going to get worse. Personally, I don't mind if BMW keeps adding more tech to the cars as long as "hardware" is still there. I think none of us can deny that BMW still makes some phenomenal engines.

[pltek]

back up camera is standard on 18s and blinds spot is a separate option for 500USD

Originally Posted by palpatine_us

The real problem isn't design, but value. A moderately optioned 330i comes in well over $50k- paying extra for safety items which are pretty much standard on all economy cars now- such as Hondas and Toyota.

$1700 for a backup camera and $1700 more for blind spot monitors. Seriously?

I can't justify feeding the BMW beast anymore.

[SCOTT26]

Globally BMW at over 2 million units for the first 10 months of 2017.
80'000 units of Electrified vehicles sold on schedule for 2017 target 100,000.
China again largest market for BMW.
Sales driven by key latest product and SUVs.
All new 5er introduced Spring 2017. is now the best selling executive Sedan globally.
45,000 units of 7er sold in 2017.
i3 sales increased globally by 20% ahead of LCI and i3S market introduction in November.
X models increasing in popularity. Outgoing X3 performs well for incoming G01 which already has a substantial order bank.
We still have two months to go. (Sales wise)