[Tambohamilton]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You win:

"The interior is poorly outfitted and cramped, there's almost zero room for cargo, and you can forget about fancy infotainment features and driver-assistance tech."

Per Car and Driver.

Oh, and it's an Alfa, the epitome of build quality and reliability...

But aren't these things which c&d point out as missing, exactly what the OP doesn't want to have?

[340iGUY]

People want luxury amenities in their cars and it adds to the weight.
Strip down the M2.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Off topic.
There's a man called Khan in London who's trying to price cars out of the capital with doubling the 'congestion' charge, taking it much further out and bringing in a 'ulez' next year to fund his outrageous spending on well...getting rid of cars.
Removing this person and having a motoring lobby in Parliament is the absolute priority in enjoying the performance car of your choice whether its an Alpine or a mini van.

Why are you stating his name rather than his role/title? He is the Mayor of London.

[5.M0NSTER]

Forced Induction or engine swapped Miata FTW

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

But aren't these things which c&d point out as missing, exactly what the OP doesn't want to have?

Well really, his post is self answering. Ariel makes a "car" called the Nomad Sport. It's basically a 2-seat, tubular frame, bodyless sports car with a Honda 2.4L K24 engine. 1,450 LBS., 230 HP, 0 - 60 in 3.5 seconds. Base price is $80K. It has 3-pedals, a steering wheel, a couple of gauges, a windshield with wiper and that's about it. Buy a motorcycle helmet, rainsuit and heated vest and you can drive it most days.

But it takes dedication. Most people want and can afford a car that has a trunk, carries people and cargo, and keeps them warm and dry.

[Murf993]

[chassis]

TargaM2 Your passion for this topic is admirable. How would you answer the questions you raise?

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by chassis

TargaM2 Your passion for this topic is admirable. How would you answer the questions you raise?

Well the only real option i see is wait till the new Alpine is a couple of years old & pick up a used one, although the used prices are almost as new atm. Not interested in anything older than my M2 as ive been there & done that. Cars like 4C dont interest me as i dont like the hairdresser look. The Yaris GR4 is an awesome little car but im getting a little old for that (make a great track car though). Only other options i see is a used 981 Cayman S but they are still pricey here. The new shape V6 Exige is another option but again they are quite pricey here. My point is this continued approach of bigger/heavier & more power is rubbish if you want a true drivers car. First world problems hey.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

Well the only real option i see is wait till the new Alpine is a couple of years old & pick up a used one, although the used prices are almost as new atm. Not interested in anything older than my M2 as ive been there & done that. Cars like 4C dont interest me as i dont like the hairdresser look. The Yaris GR4 is an awesome little car but im getting a little old for that (make a great track car though). Only other options i see is a used 981 Cayman S but they are still pricey here. The new shape V6 Exige is another option but again they are quite pricey here. My point is this continued approach of bigger/heavier & more power is rubbish if you want a true drivers car. First world problems hey.

The Cayman S is sort of exactly what you seemed to day you didn't want in your first post. I'm not putting Porsche down because I'm a big fan but I'm a bit confused. Unless I read it wrong what you originally said you wanted was something like the Alfa or a Lotus.

[TheDudeMan]

Cheap performance cars don't exist because of regulation. It's difficult for manufacturers to justify the cost to develop niche affordable sports cars. Look the the BRZ/FRS sales. These numbers just don't support the effort. In addition, when the car is released, everyone complains about everything and doesn't buy it lol.

Year sold
2012 4,144
2013 8,587
2014 7,504
2015 5,296
2016 4,141
2017 4,131
2018 3,834
2019 2,334
2020 1,746

[RugbyBro]

What defines a “true” enthusiast or “true” drivers car?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by TheDudeMan

Cheap performance cars don't exist because of regulation. It's difficult for manufacturers to justify the cost to develop niche affordable sports cars. Look the the BRZ/FRS sales. These numbers just don't support the effort. In addition, when the car is released, everyone complains about everything and doesn't buy it lol.

Year sold
2012 4,144
2013 8,587
2014 7,504
2015 5,296
2016 4,141
2017 4,131
2018 3,834
2019 2,334
2020 1,746

Because it's a crap car. The motor is horrible, with a huge torque dip that no amount of tuning can fix. The steering isn't great, the interior isn't great, it has a clock from a 1987 Corolla. I've gone twice to buy one and just can't do it.

What would honestly be great is a return to the Z3. Rwd, manual, oh, who am I kidding, never happen, not from the BMW we have today.

[Darth One]

Under the OP’s stated conditions (new, <$70k US, <1200kg) it’s pretty much the 4C and the Miata/Fiat 124. And the Alpine assuming they are in Australia or another market where it’s offered. That’s it.

The two main reasons why cars keep getting heavier is that people don’t buy light, minimally featured cars, and safety regulations.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by TheDudeMan

Cheap performance cars don't exist because of regulation. It's difficult for manufacturers to justify the cost to develop niche affordable sports cars. Look the the BRZ/FRS sales. These numbers just don't support the effort. In addition, when the car is released, everyone complains about everything and doesn't buy it lol.

Year sold
2012 4,144
2013 8,587
2014 7,504
2015 5,296
2016 4,141
2017 4,131
2018 3,834
2019 2,334
2020 1,746

I say no, it's because everyone wants a land yacht, they want 4 seats with lots of legroom, "oh I have to be able to take kids", they want a big trunk, they want lots of air conditioning, they want sunroofs, they want heated and cooled seats, they want auto transmissions, they want 20" wheels, and so on.

Even your own numbers point to the fact that it's not regulation, although as pointed out, the BRZ torque is really poor, they handicapped that car.

The 2-seat car can be built at the required weight just fine, it's just that no one wants a purely sports-car. Lots of people "say it", but they want it to cost 20-30K and be produced with economy of scale, not enough people are going to buy such a car with only enough room for 2 people and with such limited utility.

Hell, just fitting "americans" inside of the car requires massive overbuilt seats and cabin width...

And when you get that specialized and expensive, you might as well pony up for something faster and more capable, like a Cayman.

The days of the 914/6, Fiero, X 1/9, MR2 are not coming back, because no one wants it. You can buy a lightweight sports car, like a Lotus or a Morgan, you are just going to pay for it.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

...what happened to all the true enthusiasts performance cars that were actually great to drive.

They're still out there; it's just that they're used cars, is all.

My take is that the 3 Series E36 hits the sweet spot in terms of moderate weight, availability of modifications, and, still, very good handling performance.

When I look at what I've poured into my F22 to make it a reasonably good-handling and performing car, I could have built the ne plus ultra of E36s.

Whatever – such is life – and it goes on, as it always has.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

What defines a “true” enthusiast or “true” drivers car?

Even if anyone can really define what those terms mean, doesn't necessarily translate to the 'enthusiast' drives the 'driver's car'.

What we drive, may have to be far more practical and value for money. We make compromises.

Plus we are now in a different era, than when many smaller/lighter models were much more entertaining to drive. Simple fact, we typically want (or need) so much more out of our daily drives, than the cars of yesteryear.

Manufacturers know that, and provide the kit the market demands.

[mmmmQuattro]

I was going to suggest the Alfa 4C as well.

Comes in at $96k Australian.

However, it only comes in Auto.

On an Australian Porsche forum, a guy that had one said it was much more focused than the Boxster. At 1035kg, it's lighter and cheaper than a base 718 Boxster, which comes in a manual.
But, who's going to buy a base 718, when the 4.0 is available - and then not tick a few options?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Because it's a crap car. The motor is horrible, with a huge torque dip that no amount of tuning can fix. The steering isn't great, the interior isn't great, it has a clock from a 1987 Corolla. I've gone twice to buy one and just can't do it.

What would honestly be great is a return to the Z3. Rwd, manual, oh, who am I kidding, never happen, not from the BMW we have today.

I get to drive one anytime I want.

[Alfisti]

Australia is an odd market though. Regular CARS ARE QUITE REASONABLY PRICED BUT ANYTHING "PREMIUM" IS EYE BLEEDINGLY EXPENSIVE.

Sorry stupid caps.

911's are TWICE what they are here, it's insane. Mustang's are insanely expensive too.

I actually feel the market is quite well covered except for some cars just needing a bit more power, especially the Miata. Where it gets complicated is if you want 4 seats. It's Camaro, mustang or 911 and that's it and the two muscle cars are plenty heavy.

[ShocknAwe]

I'd love an Alpine. Started looking at getting a coxster recently. I like the new GTS. Porsche are so expensive though, better to buy them 2-5 years old CPO.

Also seriously considered the alfa 4c a couple times. Drove one and liked it. Didn't mind the lack of anything inside, I filled up the Italian Swear Word jar quickly enough. Good drivers car. Who needs infotainment in cars like these anyways? Junk that adds weight. Ultimately didn't buy it since I have two money pits already.

Doing weight reduction on my 1er. Might have to satisfy me long term.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Because it's a crap car. The motor is horrible, with a huge torque dip that no amount of tuning can fix. The steering isn't great, the interior isn't great, it has a clock from a 1987 Corolla. I've gone twice to buy one and just can't do it.

What would honestly be great is a return to the Z3. Rwd, manual, oh, who am I kidding, never happen, not from the BMW we have today.

While the engine is lacking there's not a better driver's car for the money. It is the closest car to the title of this thread as it's a sub-3000 lb RWD coupe that retails for under $30k USD. The reason it doesn't sell well is because people like to say on the internet all the time that they miss the days of pure, basic sports cars but when one is available they pick it apart mercilessly for not having the refinement, acceleration, and tech of more expensive and heavy cars. Cars from automakers that they bemoan everyday for "losing their way" making these fast, high tech, heavy , and expensive vehicles that people actually buy. Subaru is supposedly putting in a 2.4L 4-Cylinder in the next gen version that should cure the torque dip issue but these cars will still sell poorly. Supposed car enthusiasts IMO are amongst the biggest groups of hypocrites on the internet.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

While the engine is lacking there's not a better driver's car for the money. It is the closest car to the title of this thread as it's a sub-3000 lb RWD coupe that retails for under $30k USD. The reason it doesn't sell well is because people like to say on the internet all the time that they miss the days of pure, basic sports cars but when one is available they pick it apart mercilessly for not having the refinement, acceleration, and tech of more expensive and heavy cars. Subaru is supposedly putting in a 2.4L 4-Cylinder in the next gen version that should cure the torque dip issue but these cars will still sell poorly. Supposed car enthusiasts IMO are amongst the biggest groups of hypocrites on the internet.

I don't care what you try to do to it, but a flat-4 boxer engine just can't be made to sound good.