[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by B58-M340iX

Adding to my comment above: something needs to be done to help prevent these crimes. The US leads the mass shooting by bad people with guns by a substantial margin. I feel terrible that innocent people lost their lives to some @sshole who walked in and decided to shoot people that day.

For those who are looking at gun regulations - there is overwhelming evidence that mass murders/deaths are performed in the 70%+ range by people using pistols (or higher, depending on the state/area) and not rifles, although the rifle ones make the news and have been more common lately. Knives and car accidents/drunk drivers are involved in mass death situations far more, no, exponentially more than rifles. It's also not about the number of rounds in a magazine, either.

Yes, most "mass" shootings are done with handguns. However, the majority of those "mass" shootings are family members and parties that know each other killing more than one person in a home. Public mass shootings are way different. These shootings are carried out in public places. Public mass shootings are indiscriminate and fatalities/injuries tend to be far higher. In the past 10 years or so, public mass shootings have been largely carried out using legally acquired AR-15 style semi-auto rifles. That is a FACT.

[///d]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I saw someone break down the law in Indiana. This is how he broke it down.
Any establishment can restrict firearms being present. Carrying a gun into said establishment is not illegal. If the management/owner sees the gun, asks you to leave, and you do not. Then at that point you are breaking the law. The person in question is a valid CCW holder and was carrying a legally obtained handgun. He didn't brandish it while in the establishment and as such was not in violation of any laws as the operators did not ask him to leave.

Because of these nuances, there won't be any charges against him as he was lawfully carrying and following the rules. The operator of the mall could have followed up afterwards and file a complaint that he was carrying in violation of the policy but obviously they're not going to do that.

Ditto. I can't speak for other states, but thats the case in MN. The only places I can not legally carry from the get-go is gov't buildings, hospitals, schools, and a select few others.

Theres also criteria that establishments must meet when posting if weapons are banned. In MN the posting must state the name of the establishment bans guns, has to be eye level and in clear, direct view as you enter, text has to be a minimum font size, etc. So all these places with a picture of a gun with a circle and a slash through it are not "legal" postings.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

All the major news outlets are discussing this shooting including Fox, CNN, NPR, Politico, etc.

Getting your news from Facebook is a large reason why the country is so divided as it is. It is a terrible source of information and the news on social media gets spun even worse than how Fox and CNN spin it. If you want to understand the facts of a news story, you need to read the story from multiple outlets. Even then, you're likely not getting the whole story, but at least you're getting as many alternate views as possible. Trust but verify.

Ahem, all those news outlets provide links on Facebook which I can then follow and read the story.

Now if you're talking about just reading other dumbasses opinions of an event, yeah. That's a terrible way to be informed.

At this point, the only reason I still have Facebook is a few car groups and it's the easiest way to keep track of multiple bands/comics/venues so I can see if someone I like is coming to town.

If I could find an easier way to do the latter I'd probably just delete it. I've already deleted Twitter and haven't used IG in years.

[FrankMstein]

Speaking from DATA we are the only country with this problem by far. All the other countries have the same things but the ONLY differences are the NRA, the EASY access to, and the quantity of, weapons. The majority of Americans want better regulations it's just that 50 (for now) people stand in the way of progress. All the other talking points (excuses) are complete BS. Plenty of other countries have solved this problem.

In my opinion we should move to some sort of society like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firear...%20the%20world.

[B58-M340iX]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Yes, most "mass" shootings are done with handguns. However, the majority of those "mass" shootings are family members and parties that know each other killing more than one person in a home. Public mass shootings are way different. These shootings are carried out in public places. Public mass shootings are indiscriminate and fatalities/injuries tend to be far higher. In the past 10 years or so, public mass shootings have been largely carried out using legally acquired AR-15 style semi-auto rifles. That is a FACT.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/res...ass-shootings/

[ryan stewart]

Gotta love how 3 innocent deaths and two wounded is a "win" since we FINALLY had a good guy with a gun...

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Speaking from DATA we are the only country with this problem by far. All the other countries have the same things but the ONLY differences are the NRA, the EASY access to, and the quantity of, weapons. The majority of Americans want better regulations it's just that 50 (for now) people stand in the way of progress. All the other talking points (excuses) are complete BS. Plenty of other countries have solved this problem.

In my opinion we should move to some sort of society like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firear...%20the%20world.

The two challenges we will never address are:

1. Allowing even a minor inconvenience to get in the way of saving a life. Right now there is zero way to prevent a known threat from getting a gun, even legally. NICS just looks for a criminal history. So we end up in those situations like the 4th where someone is obviously unstable and dangerous but since his family didnt press charges when the cops showed up there was literally nothing we could do.

2. We will never have any form of chain-of-custody accountability for guns. The common refrain is "criminals will just get guns illegally no matter what laws we pass." Well, there aren't actually millions of hand guns being smuggled in, they are just stolen from legal gun owners who leave them in their trucks unsecured, in drawers for kids to get a hold of, etc. Or they can just be sold off in private label sales, entering the ether. We have built a system where we have no idea where a gun goes. The only way to slow down the flow of illegal guns is to make owners accountable for their guns.

Its funny you bring up the NRA. People now would consider the NRA pre-1977 leftists or communists. Until the Cincinnati Coup they were for gun control, were all about education and training, that guns were for sport (conservation was the core of the platform), etc. It wasn't until after that when new leadership became all about "everyone should have unfettered access to guns and guns need to be part of american culture."

The ILA was basically beefed up my lobbyists and manufacturers and instead of being a "grass roots" organization became more of a marketing organization for manufacturers. Same story as everything else here, for the past 50 years everything about our culture has been cultivated by corporations.

[FrankMstein]

I agree with all of that. It's also funny how the NRA is a non-profit yet Wayne LePistol took their money and they don't seem to care. It's crazy when a minority wants less regulation and gets it due to PAC and lobby money in politics. Who is really represented here? This is not progress, but DEVO.

Let's say you're a good guy or two with a gun and in a shootout with the bad guy or 3??? Cop rolls up, starts taking fire and doesn't know who is who. Now that cop gets in trouble for shooting the good guy or 3 and you're dead. Your family wants to sue the police department, county, hell even the state. Where does the OK corral end...?

Again we are the ONLY country with this problem and the ONLY country where we have more guns than people and easier access to them than ANY OTHER country even "shit hole countries". I wonder what the problem is. This is NOT a well regulated militia country.

U.S. Concealed Carry Association President and Founder Tim Schmidt went live on One America News Network (OANN) to respond to President Biden’s planned use of executive power to enforce six gun-control measures to end the gun violence “epidemic.”

Several things are wrong with this. OANN - completely uncreditable and aired completely bogus claims of election fraud by none other Diet Dr. Pepper drinkin Kraken lady. The second is that the USCCA has not put forth any legitimately viable ways to help this situation, only hurt it by promoting MORE CC and division. I would not cite any of their data.

Pew pew...

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

I agree with all of that. It's also funny how the NRA is a non-profit yet Wayne LePistol took their money and they don't seem to care. It's crazy when a minority wants less regulation and gets it due to PAC and lobby money in politics. Who is really represented here? This is not progress, but DEVO.

Let's say you're a good guy or two with a gun and in a shootout with the bad guy or 3??? Cop rolls up, starts taking fire and doesn't know who is who. Now that cop gets in trouble for shooting the good guy or 3 and you're dead. Your family wants to sue the police department, county, hell even the state. Where does the OK corral end...?

Again we are the ONLY country with this problem and the ONLY country where we have more guns than people and easier access to them than ANY OTHER country even "shit hole countries". I wonder what the problem is. This is NOT a well regulated militia country.

U.S. Concealed Carry Association President and Founder Tim Schmidt went live on One America News Network (OANN) to respond to President Biden’s planned use of executive power to enforce six gun-control measures to end the gun violence “epidemic.”

Several things are wrong with this. OANN - completely uncreditable and aired completely bogus claims of election fraud by none other Diet Dr. Pepper drinkin Kraken lady. The second is that the USCCA has not put forth any legitimately viable ways to help this situation, only hurt it by promoting MORE CC and division. I would not cite any of their data.

Pew pew...

The Constitution GUANTEES the gummint can't LEGALLY infringe on our Gog given RIGHTS! Would you like restrictions on your 4th Amendment rights? Just why do the police need a warrant if they just suspect you of committing a crime? How about the 5th? You would be REQUIRED to implicate yourself in a trial. How about the 3rd? The gummint could commandeer your house and quarter soldiers there as long as it wants.

The 2nd isn't about self defense anyway, it's about being able to defend ourselves against a tyrannical gummint. EXACTLY what our founders had just done.

[ryan stewart]

Yeah I've yet to have someone in an in person discussion about the subject be able to quote the entirety of the 2nd amendment without Google.

I'd actually be more than willing to sign up for a state militia to keep my non hunting guns. Hell, almost joined the Marines until my friends talked me out of it

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by ryan stewart

...
I'd actually be more than willing to sign up for a state militia to keep my non hunting guns. Hell, almost joined the Marines until my friends talked me out of it

Actually, depending on your age, you are automatically part of the militia (which are citizen soldiers, not a professional, as in paid, military).

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Actually, depending on your age, you are automatically part of the militia (which are citizen soldiers, not a professional, as in paid, military).

Well, yeah selective service, but I mean if there was a more organized form, like being a reservist, with actual training. That "well regulated" part.

Then we can save a TON of money on that massive standing army that none of the founding fathers approved of...

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by ryan stewart

Well, yeah selective service, but I mean if there was a more organized form, like being a reservist, with actual training. That "well regulated" part.

Then we can save a TON of money on that massive standing army that none of the founding fathers approved of...

The "founding fathers" didn't live in the last 200 years of evolution. Could you just imagine how much of every other countries bitch we would be? LOL!

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

The "founding fathers" didn't live in the last 200 years of evolution. Could you just imagine how much of every other countries bitch we would be? LOL!

It's not like Europe's monarchs weren't fighting each other for centuries...

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

It's not like Europe's monarchs weren't fighting each other for centuries...

Precisely, that's how long ago that 2A was developed, centuries...we've evolved, advanced, progressed, so has almost everyone else. The 2A hasn't.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

The "founding fathers" didn't live in the last 200 years of evolution. Could you just imagine how much of every other countries bitch we would be? LOL!

Just funny how we pick and choose what is dogma...

The constitution has basically become dogma, you pick and choose what serves your "faith" and you dismiss the rest as allegory.

The funniest thing is hearing my grandmother argue against changing (or you could even call amending) the constitution, its a betrayal of the founders intent...

Now, the question is does anyone get the OTHER reason why that is funny?

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by ryan stewart

Just funny how we pick and choose what is dogma...

The constitution has basically become dogma, you pick and choose what serves your "faith" and you dismiss the rest as allegory.

The funniest thing is hearing my grandmother argue against changing (or you could even call amending) the constitution, its a betrayal of the founders intent...

Now, the question is does anyone get the OTHER reason why that is funny?

They knew that they were not perfect that's why they left the door open for amendments.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by kring

Endless topic and debate…. But very little threat of punishment will deter, most are already committed to suicide, that’s how strongly they feel. Dead people don’t care about a death penalty. These are passive deterrents and accomplish nothing more than making a politician feel like he/she did something important to advertise for their next campaign.

An active deterrent is policing, security measures, armed educated and empowering citizens, spying, awareness, cultural shift that does not allow this to be normal and to stop/kill these shooters before they are able to fully carry out their intent. But some people complain it’s invasion of privacy while others complain it’s dangerous to arm citizens… so we do nothing and we therefore see no improvement as we are afraid to offend peoples rights, apparently peoples rights (most are fake perceptions of rights) is worth more than human life. Expect these shootings to continue forever until we actually make a real change.

Meanwhile. All this is just band-aids on the symptom. What is constantly ignored is root cause. Lots of opinion and debate on what that is…. But it ain’t guns, privacy, rights, free speech. That is smoke and mirrors to the real hard problem. It’s more like this country is a shitty place for a lot of people compounded by growing entitlement that an individual matters more than the whole. What’s for sure not happening is balance, you trade some degree of privacy for a proactive safety, you give up some gun rights for greater armed citizens and safety… but few want to compromise so deadlock happens… thus this keeps happening and will continue to escalate.

My two cents - two major causes to this entire state of state. media is glorifying it all day long… they wait on edge of seats for the next one and send out the news so fast it’s usually grossly wrong… but they got the “clicks” and ad revenue so who cares…. Media is the gasoline on a what is really a small fire. (Now big because of their fuel)

Real root cause is corporate greed and the stock market. It creates this horrible swirl of stealing everyones money, hiding behind corporate policy, systematically robbing people of their retirements… so much more greed driven issues. that is what backs people into corners to a point where they feel the need to send a message and lash out. Short-sellers, chasing quarterly revenue is the food for the environment we have built that causes mass life hardships…. Instead we should be looking to lift up the poverty level, not give CEO’s bigger paychecks. Taxing them is NOT the answer either, it’s actually fundamentally changing how a company operates to actually do something good for benefit of both company and people, not hit a quarterly financial target at any expense. Chasing the corporate dollar causes all of the other issues in this country to exist. Inflation, poverty, healthcare issues… all traced right back to corporation greed and the stock market. If people had a little more money, couldn’t fall so far out of the tree, had support when they needed it, had access to meaningful employment, could eat, get basic healthcare, take care of their family and life a good life… guarantee these shootings wouldn’t exist. Corporate & stock market reform is where to start.

Lastly, and I hit on it earlier… we need to change what is OK and what crosses a line. People are way too entitled, way to permissive, way to passive, way too many people who don’t matter being able to matter. I am a big fan of bring back the punch in the face to keep out of line people in check, we need to stop accepting people’s delusional and selfish actions and behaviors. Most of these shooters it was known they would do this, there are many indicators but we take no action out of fear of offending. I say BS - some troubled kid is indicating a lash out - intervene instead of watch and wait till it happens. That crazy ass redneck who looks like he hasn’t bathed in 2 years, has disturbing ticks, owns 100 guns who mumbles in grocery stores about China, hell NO take it all away on the spot. Don’t focus on my examples… the core is basically we need to take more direct, quick meaningful action, not sit passive… but we sit passive because direct meaningful action is not socially acceptable so those who would be willing to are oppressed into not taking action. It’s a cycle of ineffectiveness.

The hard part is we are so entrenched that even those willing and wanting to help move forward come off like crazies so its hard to tell us/them apart from the actual lunatics.

How dare you make a non-partisan, critically thought out response. If you ran for office you'd get maybe 5 votes.

Unfortunately, Americans get the politicians they deserve. There's enough fringe hyper-emotional voters who will always nominate the partisan candidates over the moderate ones.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

They knew that they were not perfect that's why they left the door open for amendments.

Well, that and a woman saying you should change the constitution.

[FrankMstein]

There is nothing wrong with that. It's been done before.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

All the major news outlets are discussing this shooting including Fox, CNN, NPR, Politico, etc.

Getting your news from Facebook is a large reason why the country is so divided as it is. It is a terrible source of information and the news on social media gets spun even worse than how Fox and CNN spin it. If you want to understand the facts of a news story, you need to read the story from multiple outlets. Even then, you're likely not getting the whole story, but at least you're getting as many alternate views as possible. Trust but verify.

I always love a Reagan quote! That makes my heart flutter

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

The Constitution GUANTEES the gummint can't LEGALLY infringe on our Gog given RIGHTS! Would you like restrictions on your 4th Amendment rights? Just why do the police need a warrant if they just suspect you of committing a crime? How about the 5th? You would be REQUIRED to implicate yourself in a trial. How about the 3rd? The gummint could commandeer your house and quarter soldiers there as long as it wants.

The 2nd isn't about self defense anyway, it's about being able to defend ourselves against a tyrannical gummint. EXACTLY what our founders had just done.

I can't tell if this is satire or real.

If it's real, please tell me about "well regulated".