[Patton250]

Originally Posted by rmedina

I believe this is the issue. No one is going to treat your car as you would.

That’s not true at all. Professional detailing companies will absolutely treat your car better than you do. Why? Because they know what they’re doing and they have the right materials. Do you have a tank of distilled water at your house to wash your car? Do you have a legion of specialized sponges and wipes to properly clean ceramic coated cars? I mean, perhaps you do. I don’t. Now will a 19 year old kid at the BMW dealership treat your car better then you? Probably not. How about your neighbors son that you pay 20 bucks to? Don’t be ridiculous. But there are highly experienced, very proud Car Detailing professionals that make their living washing and detailing cars that cost more than most peoples houses. I think they would knock out a better job than your average car owner. Just saying.

OP- either force the people that did the damage to pay to fix it, or you pay to fix it. After that, make sure in the future you have an experienced car detailing company that knows how to wash ceramic coated cars take care of your vehicle from now on. Either that or you learn to to it yourself and invest in all the materials and liquids to properly do it, including and probably most importantly, distilled water. Lesson learned.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Patton250

That’s not true at all. Professional detailing companies will absolutely treat your car better than you do. Why? Because they know what they’re doing and they have the right materials. Do you have a tank of distilled water at your house to wash your car? Do you have a legion of specialized sponges and wipes to properly clean ceramic coated cars? I mean, perhaps you do. I don’t.

Ehhh, not really. Pros are optimized for efficiency, not quality.

Pros care about getting through as many cars as they can in a day whereas we care about getting the most quality as we can.

Anybody smart enough to earn enough money to buy a BMW can learn to wash a car properly and can certainly afford the $50-$300 to buy the stuff.

You can buy all of that stuff for < $50 & you don't need a bunch of specialized stuff.

* Deionized water is available at most grocery stores in the bulk water section for $0.49/gallon



* Microfiber is available at walmart, costco, or home depot for $3.50 for 50 of them
* A gallon of concentrated auto shampoo is $11 at O'Reilly's (like $0.10/wash)

Sure, you might not WANT to take the time to learn, but if you do we're talking $300 for a sweet setup and 20-30 min / week.

Any noob can learn to wash a car well; if you don't, then sure a pro will be better ...

but if you do take the time to learn (like 30 min total?), then any of us will do a WAY better job than any pro.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Ehhh, not really. Pros are optimized for efficiency, not quality.

Pros care about getting through as many cars as they can in a day whereas we care about getting the most quality as we can.

Anybody smart enough to earn enough money to buy a BMW can learn to wash a car properly and can certainly afford the $50-$300 to buy the stuff.

You can buy all of that stuff for < $50 & you don't need a bunch of specialized stuff.

* Deionized water is available at most grocery stores in the bulk water section for $0.49/gallon



* Microfiber is available at walmart, costco, or home depot for $3.50 for

Sure, you might WANT to take the time to learn, but if you do we're talking $300 for a sweet setup and 20-30 min / week.

Any noob can learn to wash a car well; if you don't, then sure a pro will be better ...

but if you do take the time to learn (like 30 min total?), then any of us will do a WAY better job than any pro.

K

I met some people that said the same thing about installing their own air conditioning system. You have a blessed day, sir.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Patton250

K

I met some people that said the same thing about installing their own air conditioning system. You have a blessed day, sir.

If, for most people, washing a car properly is a similar difficulty level to installing an air conditioning system then all of my days have indeed been blessed!

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If, for most people, washing a car properly is a similar difficulty level to installing an air conditioning system then all of my days have indeed been blessed!

Listen brother, no offense I just get a little irritated having these type of discussions. I’m telling you straight up the average car owner absolutely does not have the materials or the experience and most importantly, the knowledge to properly wash ceramic coated vehicles with or without PPF on it. In addition, I would suggest that most people, especially those with high-end cars with ceramic coating on them do not care to learn the proper way to perform these services or invest in the materials needed. I would also say, and it’s quite obvious as our very own OP of this thread has learned, that most commercial car washes like at dealerships or car wash companies have no idea what they’re doing when washing cars with the above said products.

I have a professional mobile detailer come to my house twice a month to do two cars in my fleet. He spends over two hours on each of the vehicles he does that day. He has a giant tank of distilled water and a ton of materials to properly wash it. He’s been to schools to learn how to care for ceramic coated vehicles and PPF coated vehicles and also how to to use the chemicals properly. If you wish to think light of that and feel you can do the same job he can do then you go for it. I personally don’t have the time to spend four hours every two weeks on my precious Saturday to wash cars. I also don’t have a giant tank filled with distilled water. Probably most importantly, I have no freaking idea what I’m doing and would more than likely screw it up.

Now to close this post I want to let you know why I get irritated during these type of conversations. It irritates me when people make light of other peoples professions. In our country we have experts in different fields that are the best at what they do for that field. I have found out that Car Detailing is absolutely a precision type job. These men and women are sometimes working on million dollar+ cars. My guy does. My M5 cost 120+ as did most of yours. My Porsche 250+. I can’t speak for you, but I absolutely wouldn’t want some inexperienced jackleg washing them and that would include myself.


Now doing a quick wash on my daughters 2014 Honda Civic would be a different story……

[Mgrae456]

Originally Posted by Patton250

That’s not true at all. Professional detailing companies will absolutely treat your car better than you do. Why? Because they know what they’re doing and they have the right materials. Do you have a tank of distilled water at your house to wash your car? Do you have a legion of specialized sponges and wipes to properly clean ceramic coated cars? I mean, perhaps you do. I don’t. Now will a 19 year old kid at the BMW dealership treat your car better then you? Probably not. How about your neighbors son that you pay 20 bucks to? Don’t be ridiculous. But there are highly experienced, very proud Car Detailing professionals that make their living washing and detailing cars that cost more than most peoples houses. I think they would knock out a better job than your average car owner. Just saying.

OP- either force the people that did the damage to pay to fix it, or you pay to fix it. After that, make sure in the future you have an experienced car detailing company that knows how to wash ceramic coated cars take care of your vehicle from now on. Either that or you learn to to it yourself and invest in all the materials and liquids to properly do it, including and probably most importantly, distilled water. Lesson learned.

I appreciate all the replies I'm learning allot. I think I might have mentioned in an earlier post washing the car myself isn't an option. I have a surgically repaired knee, hip, and shoulder. Only 43 was in a pretty bad car accident many years ago. Anyway my only option is to find whoever is best locally

[shawndean22]

Ceramic coating does not protect from physical damage that creates swirls. The average person a ceramic coating is useless as they do not wash their car often enough to benefit.
Ceramic coating provided chemical protection and shine, PFF offers physical protection. Most swirls come from washing the car, and can come from just driving the car from dust in the air and rock from the road.

Washing car is easier with ceramic coating because of hydrophobic properties.

I wash my care everyone 2-3 weeks mainly because of break dust I do no want the dust to build up where I would need an iron wheel cleaner.

Polishing a car every 6 months is excessive and will ruin paint in the long run.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Mgrae456

So a little update I called the detailer that installed the ceramic coating. He of course, blamed it on the car wash as I was getting. He told me I’m due for what is known as a six month refresh which I wasn’t even aware of. He said he’s going to lightly polish the car, which will not affect the ceramic coating that is currently on the car. After that he’s going to apply one more layer of ceramic coating. He believes that this will illiminate the very light swirls that I see. It will also include some level of a detail and interior work done also for the price of $250. I’m curious to hear what you kind folk think. But to me, it seems like a reasonable best option.

Mate. This sounds like a scam. Stop giving this place your money. People really, really need to stop falling for all this ceramic hype.

[TboneS54]

Don't go to a detailer that tells you he's gonna polish the car and that won't remove the ceramic coating lol, but then he's going to apply another coating? Not sure if scam is the right word, but maybe "up-selling" isn't even strong enough.

As a hobbyist detailer with a black car, I've just had to come to terms with the car having some very light swirls after some time goes by. I take the precautions, but it's still going to happen to some degree. Other than the aformentioned mitigations, my approach is to lightly polish the car once a year, so lightly that I can do it almost indefinitely, but where the combination of soft pad and light polish (2500-3k grit and finer) are still enough to remove the swirls so that I can enjoy the car almost swirl free for several months, and then just try to minimize it till the next polish. Because of this approach, I don't spend much on long term coatings, but the quasi-ceramic sprays and 1year types like cancoat or wolfgang uber ceramic. I did just buy Gyeon Pure Evo becuase I want the deep candy gloss. I won't need its 18-24 month lifespan, but for $50 (with coupon), I don't mind at all. I don't need a $200 5 year coating.

With a quality coating, you can blow dry the car so you don't introduce more swirls. You can also spray some sio2 boosting sprays, and just rinse them off for even more "touchless" protection, before then blow drying it - but I think this was already mentioned above.

[Nettles]

Originally Posted by P1

Mate. This sounds like a scam. Stop giving this place your money. People really, really need to stop falling for all this ceramic hype.

I mean for $250 that ain’t a bad deal. Might as well do that and have his swirl free finish. But overall yes I agree with you and the hype surrounding a lot of things in the detailing industry.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Mgrae456

I appreciate all the replies I'm learning allot. I think I might have mentioned in an earlier post washing the car myself isn't an option. I have a surgically repaired knee, hip, and shoulder. Only 43 was in a pretty bad car accident many years ago. Anyway my only option is to find whoever is best locally

Check the Autopia forums or Reddit AutoDetailing or something to find a mobile or local person with examples of their good work. Your options are pay for a good detailer or just live with swirls.

[GrussGott]

Good convo, Patton! FWIW, my thoughts ...

Originally Posted by Patton250

the average car owner absolutely does not have the materials or the experience and most importantly, the knowledge to properly wash ceramic coated vehicles

For sure!

However, with that, washing cars properly (ceramic or not) doesn't require much knowledge or training (more on why pros are different below).

Originally Posted by Patton250

most commercial car washes like at dealerships or car wash companies have no idea what they’re doing when washing cars with the above said products.

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Patton250

If you wish to think light of that and feel you can do the same job he can do then you go for it.

Why do you feel learning how to do task properly is "thinking light" of it?

I mean making a good grilled hamburger requires proper tools & training and I would NEVER make light of it. A great grilled burger is delicious!

But I also believe most all people can learn to make a great grilled burger, but it does take time, tools, and intention; and that just might not be something one is willing to do.

Originally Posted by Patton250

I personally don’t have the time to spend four hours [per week]

Yeah, sometimes the easiest way to pay for things is with money, amiright?

Washing a car is something many people just don't want to do. That said, I've yet to meet a single person with a spendy car who, when shown how easy it is to do properly, doesn't start doing it themselves, and I bet you'd be no different.

Originally Posted by Patton250

It irritates me when people make light of other peoples professions.

You're conflating the ease of learning how to do a task properly & well with "making light" of it.

These are not the same things.

So, since we're sharing, here's what irritates me:

I've had a lot of careers: engineer, IT, financial, corp strategy consulting, startups, etc and every time I get involved in them I always run into people who tell me I can't learn what they know because it's black magic and it takes years of training and schools and etc.

And then I learn it, do it, and start training other people who previously didn't learn it because they were told it was super duper hard, and then they marvel at how fast they were able to learn it.

My point is, false knowledge barriers irritate me. Nothing any of us do for a living is necessarily hard to learn - after all, we learned it!

BUT. The difference is, some things - i.e., 'professions' using the word in the literal sense - do require licensure and large amounts of practice & training: legal, medical, accounting, engineering, piloting, etc.

Cleaning a car isn't one of those; that doesn't make it inconsequentially easy, but it's not hard either.

I can teach most anyone how to properly clean your cars in 20 minutes. That doesn't make light of auto detailing, it's just a fact; but it's also one that hides reality:
The real skill pro detailers have is learning how to wash & detail a car FAST & WELL and THAT'S where all the expensive special tools & knowledge come in.

Polishing is the same thing: any noob can paint enhance - polish - their car no problem with no risk. Cutting starts getting more tricky, and then doing all of that fast is where the skill comes in.

NET NET
Auto detailing is a trade and the real skill in most trades is learning to do the job fast without losing any quality.

DIY detailers don't need that skill, thus it's not making light of the trade, it's understanding it well enough to know the difference.

Finally a thanks for your comments & thoughts - most people would just be a dick about it

[allinon72]

It's easy to deep dive into detailing and mistakenly assume that one needs a DI system, 2k pressure washer, the finest soaps and microfibers in order to do it properly. All that stuff is a lot of fun, but it isn't required to properly wash a car without scratching. That is done with technique, which is practically free. 2 bucket method, $10 Meguiars soap, and a decent wash mitt and you can wash a car virtually risk free.

I say that as I guy with a 3k washing pressure washer, DI setup, and hundreds of dollars in detailing supplies.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Good convo, Patton! FWIW, my thoughts ...

For sure!

However, with that, washing cars properly (ceramic or not) doesn't require much knowledge or training (more on why pros are different below).
Absolutely!Why do you feel learning how to do task properly is "thinking light" of it?

I mean making a good grilled hamburger requires proper tools & training and I would NEVER make light of it. A great grilled burger is delicious!

But I also believe most all people can learn to make a great grilled burger, but it does take time, tools, and intention; and that just might not be something one is willing to do.
Yeah, sometimes the easiest way to pay for things is with money, amiright?

Washing a car is something many people just don't want to do. That said, I've yet to meet a single person with a spendy car who, when shown how easy it is to do properly, doesn't start doing it themselves, and I bet you'd be no different.


You're conflating the ease of learning how to do a task properly & well with "making light" of it.

These are not the same things.

So, since we're sharing, here's what irritates me:

I've had a lot of careers: engineer, IT, financial, corp strategy consulting, startups, etc and every time I get involved in them I always run into people who tell me I can't learn what they know because it's black magic and it takes years of training and schools and etc.

And then I learn it, do it, and start training other people who previously didn't learn it because they were told it was super duper hard, and then they marvel at how fast they were able to learn it.

My point is, false knowledge barriers irritate me. Nothing any of us do for a living is necessarily hard to learn - after all, we learned it!

BUT. The difference is, some things - i.e., 'professions' using the word in the literal sense - do require licensure and large amounts of practice & training: legal, medical, accounting, engineering, piloting, etc.

Cleaning a car isn't one of those; that doesn't make it inconsequentially easy, but it's not hard either.

I can teach most anyone how to properly clean your cars in 20 minutes. That doesn't make light of auto detailing, it's just a fact; but it's also one that hides reality:
The real skill pro detailers have is learning how to wash & detail a car FAST & WELL and THAT'S where all the expensive special tools & knowledge come in.

Polishing is the same thing: any noob can paint enhance - polish - their car no problem with no risk. Cutting starts getting more tricky, and then doing all of that fast is where the skill comes in.

NET NET
Auto detailing is a trade and the real skill in most trades is learning to do the job fast without losing any quality.

DIY detailers don't need that skill, thus it's not making light of the trade, it's understanding it well enough to know the difference.

Finally a thanks for your comments & thoughts - most people would just be a dick about it

I assure you I can absolutely maintain my acre and a half of property just as good as my lawn service company. I ain’t doing it. I also assure you and agree with you that I can learn the skills necessary to not destroy the ceramic coating on my cars as well as buy all the materials, including a tank on the side of the house to hold distilled water. I ain’t doing it. I absolutely can wire my entire house electrically. I ain’t doing it. I 100% know how to fix my air conditioning system in my house. I ain’t doing it. I think you can understand the reoccurring theme here.

There is one thing I will disagree with you on and that is I still don’t think you’ll be able to do your car as efficiently and meticulously as someone that does it on the daily and has been trained to do it. You’re free to disagree with that and that’s fine. These things take a level of patience, consistency and skill to do it properly. And I don’t care what anyone says I know for a fact that if you don’t use distilled water you’re going to F things up. So I hope you have a tank at home.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by allinon72

It's easy to deep dive into detailing and mistakenly assume that one needs a DI system, 2k pressure washer, the finest soaps and microfibers in order to do it properly. All that stuff is a lot of fun, but it isn't required to properly wash a car without scratching. That is done with technique, which is practically free. 2 bucket method, $10 Meguiars soap, and a decent wash mitt and you can wash a car virtually risk free.

I say that as I guy with a 3k washing pressure washer, DI setup, and hundreds of dollars in detailing supplies.

Sounds to me like you’re saying the supply industry for car detailing materials and supplies are a bunch of snake oil, sales people and ripoff artists? After all they are using all that unnecessary stuff, right?

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Sounds to me like you’re saying the supply industry for car detailing materials and supplies are a bunch of snake oil, sales people and ripoff artists? After all they are using all that unnecessary stuff, right?

No. Like most everything, there are levels. You can buy a pair of shoes at Walmart or a pair of Jordans. Both protect your feet from the pavement, but they accomplish different things. You can buy a Mitsubishi or a BMW. Both get you from point A to point B. My guess is you already know this but you seem to be disgruntled about this topic of detailing, for whatever reason.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by allinon72

No. Like most everything, there are levels. You can buy a pair of shoes at Walmart or a pair of Jordans. Both protect your feet from the pavement, but they accomplish different things. You can buy a Mitsubishi or a BMW. Both get you from point A to point B. My guess is you already know this but you seem to be disgruntled about this topic of detailing, for whatever reason.

Oh, I promise I’m not disgruntled. But I also wouldn’t wear a pair of shoes from Walmart in an M5 or a Porsche. Maybe that best explains it since you were using that analogy.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Oh, I promise I’m not disgruntled. But I also wouldn’t wear a pair of shoes from Walmart in an M5 or a Porsche. Maybe that best explains it since you were using that analogy.

So basically you’re trying to justify your desire to pay someone else to take care of your cars, which is fine. But why tear others down in the process? Makes no sense to me.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by allinon72

So basically you’re trying to justify your desire to pay someone else to take care of your cars, which is fine. But why tear others down in the process? Makes no sense to me.

No where did you see me tear anyone down. Not even kind of close. Also, I don’t really feel like I’m in the position to ever need to justify anything to people I don’t know on a car forum. Actually, I’ve never felt like I needed to justify anything to people I do know, including immediate family members.

My point has been that in order to properly wash and maintain ceramic coated and PPF’d cars you need the right materials, supplies, experience, and time. No one has argued with me about that. Are you? What a couple of people did say is that they feel they can do everybit as good of a job as a professional company. I can somewhat believe this. What you said is that you could do every bit as good of a job as a professional company with very little and very cheap materials. I have a difficult time believing that. That’s not putting you down. That’s disagreeing with you.

[rmedina]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Good convo, Patton! FWIW, my thoughts ...

For sure!

However, with that, washing cars properly (ceramic or not) doesn't require much knowledge or training (more on why pros are different below).
Absolutely!Why do you feel learning how to do task properly is "thinking light" of it?

I mean making a good grilled hamburger requires proper tools & training and I would NEVER make light of it. A great grilled burger is delicious!

But I also believe most all people can learn to make a great grilled burger, but it does take time, tools, and intention; and that just might not be something one is willing to do.
Yeah, sometimes the easiest way to pay for things is with money, amiright?

Washing a car is something many people just don't want to do. That said, I've yet to meet a single person with a spendy car who, when shown how easy it is to do properly, doesn't start doing it themselves, and I bet you'd be no different.


You're conflating the ease of learning how to do a task properly & well with "making light" of it.

These are not the same things.

So, since we're sharing, here's what irritates me:

I've had a lot of careers: engineer, IT, financial, corp strategy consulting, startups, etc and every time I get involved in them I always run into people who tell me I can't learn what they know because it's black magic and it takes years of training and schools and etc.

And then I learn it, do it, and start training other people who previously didn't learn it because they were told it was super duper hard, and then they marvel at how fast they were able to learn it.

My point is, false knowledge barriers irritate me. Nothing any of us do for a living is necessarily hard to learn - after all, we learned it!

BUT. The difference is, some things - i.e., 'professions' using the word in the literal sense - do require licensure and large amounts of practice & training: legal, medical, accounting, engineering, piloting, etc.

Cleaning a car isn't one of those; that doesn't make it inconsequentially easy, but it's not hard either.

I can teach most anyone how to properly clean your cars in 20 minutes. That doesn't make light of auto detailing, it's just a fact; but it's also one that hides reality:
The real skill pro detailers have is learning how to wash & detail a car FAST & WELL and THAT'S where all the expensive special tools & knowledge come in.

Polishing is the same thing: any noob can paint enhance - polish - their car no problem with no risk. Cutting starts getting more tricky, and then doing all of that fast is where the skill comes in.

NET NET
Auto detailing is a trade and the real skill in most trades is learning to do the job fast without losing any quality.

DIY detailers don't need that skill, thus it's not making light of the trade, it's understanding it well enough to know the difference.

Finally a thanks for your comments & thoughts - most people would just be a dick about it

Someone just got owned..

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Patton250

There is one thing I will disagree with you on and that is I still don’t think you’ll be able to do your car as efficiently and meticulously as someone that does it on the daily and has been trained to do it. You’re free to disagree with that and that’s fine. These things take a level of patience, consistency and skill to do it properly. And I don’t care what anyone says I know for a fact that if you don’t use distilled water you’re going to F things up. So I hope you have a tank at home.

No disagreement there Patton! Well, maybe partially

I won't be as efficient since I neither need to nor want to be efficient, but I will be more meticulous because it's my car; I don't care about the time nor do I have to finish by x time so I will ALWAYS be more meticulous than any pro, especially since I enjoy the hobby. It's not a job for me.

If a pro skips out on that dirt under your door handle or that small scratch on your bumper will you notice? No! But I will because I do my own car so I know every single millimeter and one can't be more meticulous than that.

Also you seem super hung up on distilled water like it's unobtanium, so FYI about *de-ionized* water:

1. One needs de-ionized water, not full on distilled; for car washing purposes they're equivalent
2. You can buy high volume, portable water de-ionizers that plug onto your garden hose, no tanks required (I have one, see below)
3. But it's easier for me to just buy it at the grocery store so I rarely use my CR Spotless

Grocery store deionized bulk water, $0.49/gallon, fills up in a minute or two


CR Spotless inline water de-ionizer, connects to your garden hose


The CR Spotless high volume deionizer has stainless steel quick disconnects so I can hook it up in about 5 seconds, but I generally always have a hydroshot ready w water from the grocery store.



Generally I pre-wash & wash with normal water out of the hose and then rinse with de-ionized, usually with McKee's N914 in there as a drying aid.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

No disagreement there Patton! Well, maybe partially

I won't be as efficient since I neither need to nor want to be efficient, but I will be more meticulous because it's my car; I don't care about the time nor do I have to finish by x time so I will ALWAYS be more meticulous than any pro, especially since I enjoy the hobby. It's not a job for me.

If a pro skips out on that dirt under your door handle or that small scratch on your bumper will you notice? No! But I will because I do my own car so I know every single millimeter and one can't be more meticulous than that.

Also you seem super hung up on distilled water like it's unobtanium, so FYI about *de-ionized* water:

1. One needs de-ionized water, not full on distilled; for car washing purposes they're equivalent
2. You can buy high volume, portable water de-ionizers that plug onto your garden hose, no tanks required (I have one, see below)
3. But it's easier for me to just buy it at the grocery store so I rarely use my CR Spotless

Grocery store deionized bulk water, $0.49/gallon, fills up in a minute or two


CR Spotless inline water de-ionizer, connects to your garden hose


The CR Spotless high volume deionizer has stainless steel quick disconnects so I can hook it up in about 5 seconds, but I generally always have a hydroshot ready w water from the grocery store.



Generally I pre-wash & wash with normal water out of the hose and then rinse with de-ionized, usually with McKee's N914 in there as a drying aid.

Brother, I really believe I would cut off half of my left pinky finger if I would be granted just one 10th the time you’re describing in a week to do that. Perhaps I will one day. I highly doubt if and when that happens, I’ll ever wash my cars but I think we get each others point. Having said all that, I’ll take your points a step further. I believe you absolutely could do just as good job, painting your house, mowing and maintaining your lawn/yard, cleaning the windows of your house, cleaning the roof of your house and maintaining your pool, assuming you have one.(I do). All I have been saying, and you really haven’t fought me on this, you personally I mean, is that there are professionals set up to do these jobs with everything they need, ready to go, and they are most the proficient at them. So I will end with saying unless you Hella enjoy taking 3 to 4 hours of your weekend in the heat of the day cleaning and washing your car I would just leave it to the people who do that for a living. You are one of the most respectful and reasonable people I’ve seen on this forum and I appreciate you. You have an awesome weekend.

The direction this topic has gone has made me feel like we are not in a BMW M5 sub forum.