[b0bab0i]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I do actually plan on some type of response to Cadillac. I also have a friend originally from Detroit, who has family that work in executive positions within GM, which my be the route I take. His connections helped me work the deal I got on my Hummer H3T in 2009.

I've been waiting a long time for an American car company to even seriously approach taking on the Germans in the sport sedan class (Lincoln LS aside), and my real first experience is what I got yesterday (same as I got from Lincoln 10 years ago). I'm the ATS' target audience. I fondly remember Cadillacs of the '60s and '70s, despite being luxury barges, taken in context of the times, they were quite excellent, high-quality automobiles. I have no prejudice against the American car manufacturers (I've owned quite a few good ones).

I don't think you are. ATS is trying to take away 3 series customers. I'm pretty sure 90% of 3 Series in the US are automatic.

[MediaArtist]

I don't see how this is the floor guys fault. Different dealerships get different allotments based on what they can move. If they stocked 20 manuals, they'd go out of business because they would sit on the lot for months. It's the same at BMW dealerships. Try to ask for a test drive on a manual E92 M3, or F30 328i. You would probably get the same response.

[F32]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Wasn't looking for anything, just venting to what I thought would be like-minded enthusiasts, but I do now understand where the douchebags really are and what kind of cars they drive. I even more understand why BMW is now building the (old) Buick-like F30 because a bunch of tool-acting, Roundel-hound, douchebags would rather play with themselves and their kewel I-drive crap than actually drive a car and get the pleasure of interacting with a machine that has finely tuned steering, brakes, and suspension (apparently what the ATS has and the F30 doesn't).

Had the salesman's response been something like "You know, it's nice to see real car enthusiast guys like you come in because they have interest in the ATS. Unfortunately, we are out of the manual transmission right now, we sold the last one a few weeks ago and GM hasn't had any available to restock. How about as soon as we get our next allotment of turbos in with the manual, I'll call you and we can arrange a test drive. But in the meantime, how about we find a 3.6 with the suspension you are looking for and take it out. It's a great handling car and I think you'll enjoy driving it. When we get to take out the manual transmission version, it will probably be even more enjoyable for you." - That would have been a proper response to win over a customer and get him interested in dealing with the dealership. Telling me "Well we don't stock the manual because so few people buy them and it's a bad business decision." tells me the dealer and Cadillac really aren't interested in changing their customer demographic. I know this is not true in the case of Cadillac because most corporations don't spend billions of dollars to develop a car and change its image to move its customer demographic.

LOL. Sure.

[NemesisX]

Guess OP will never be setting foot in a Ferrari dealership with that kind of attitude (hint: Ferrari flat out doesn't make manual transmissions anymore)

Looks like the future M5 is off the radar as well, as is the C63.

[Jamesons Viggen]

I called around, most dealers did not have ANY 6mt BMW on the lot a year ago.

I was very lucky, before ordering my car a local dealer had a RWD 6mt Sport 328 for me to drive that they had as a loaner. A few months later, EVERY car in NJ seems to be Xdrive.

I am 100% sure the ATS will be no different. I was lucky that before the F30 test drive local dealer did have a Buick GS with a stick for me to drive-better than nothin.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by b0bab0i

I don't think you are. ATS is trying to take away 3 series customers. I'm pretty sure 90% of 3 Series in the US are automatic.

I've owned a BMW 3-Series since 1988. Have a combine ownership mileage of over 650,000 miles in a 3-Series. I own a GM product already. So how am I not Cadillac's target audience. It's sad that 90% are automatics. If automatics are so critical to the car's appeal, then why did all the magazines pick the 3-er over the ATS when it was first out because of "shift quality" (when the Caddy drove, steered and braked better)? Not like the 3-Series shifts like a Honda anyway. The most recent comparo I've read in Motor trend dissed the ATS because the gauges "lacked sparkle" really? Sparkle?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

Guess OP will never be setting foot in a Ferrari dealership with that kind of attitude (hint: Ferrari flat out doesn't make manual transmissions anymore)

Looks like the future M5 is off the radar as well, as is the C63.

Yup. I'd find a used Ford GT, or a new C7. Just because you can afford a Ferrari doesn't mean you can drive it, or appreciate a 3-pedal car.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's sad that 90% are automatics. If automatics are so critical to the car's appeal, then why did all the magazines pick the 3-er over the ATS when it was first out because of "shift quality" (when the Caddy drove, steered and braked better)? Not like the 3-Series shifts like a Honda anyway. The most recent comparo I've read in Motor trend dissed the ATS because the gauges "lacked sparkle" really? Sparkle?

Because they weighed all of the objective and subjective factors out with the specific models given to them for testing purposes and decided it was the better overall car based on the criteria set. That's why.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Anyway, I don't think the guy was being rude. I actually thought you were quite rude. The salesman doesn't control dealer inventory so to go off on him like that was wrong.

2nd. the dealer guy just sounded like a dealer guy.....YOU, on the other hand, sounded very rude.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by -Wingman-

You're actually the one that seemed rude, not the sales guy. At the point where you say, 'why bother?' is where it sounds like you came into the dealership with a stick up your ass.

+1

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

Because they weighed all of the objective and subjective factors out with the specific models given to them for testing purposes and decided it was the better overall car based on the criteria set. That's why.

Yeah, and I remember when BMWs won purely on their handling prowess. Nobody cared about gauge sparkle and how well the MMI worked. BMW looses in handling so they have to find other criteria to give it points. "Oh, it drives like crap, but boy does that I-drive work great!" And then they note the the Caddy's gas mileage is second lowest all the while admitting they hammered the crap out of it because it was so much more fun to drive than the other cars. The gauges don't sparkle and the 1st gen CUE system doesn't match wits with the 4th gen I-drive; yeah the caddy sucks and the BMW fan boyz eat it up.

Cheers.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by US///M3

+1

I came to drive an ATS with an manual transmission, not with a stick up my ass. What you don't realize is where I live, there are only two Cadillac dealers within 45 miles of my home, so looking on line to see what they have in inventory (which isn't that accurate BTW) is not material to the issue that the salesman was a dork.

[Southern]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I came to drive an ATS with an manual transmission, not with a stick up my ass. What you don't realize is where I live, there are only two Cadillac dealers within 45 miles of my home, so looking on line to see what they have in inventory (which isn't that accurate BTW) is not material to the issue that the salesman was a dork.

If you were so hell bent on driving a manual ATS, why not just call to confirm that they had the car in inventory? I wouldn't waste my time driving to a dealership just hoping that they had a particular car in stock.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Southern

If you were so hell bent on driving a manual ATS, why not just call to confirm that they had the car in inventory? I wouldn't waste my time driving to a dealership just hoping that they had a particular car in stock.

I was in the area for another reason, so it wasn't a wasted trip. I dropped my wife off 1/2 mile from the dealership and had a few hours to kill. I bought dog food, test drove a 320i at the BMW dealership, and bought a WiFi radio at Crutchfield...

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, and I remember when BMWs won purely on their handling prowess. Nobody cared about gauge sparkle and how well the MMI worked. BMW looses in handling so they have to find other criteria to give it points. "Oh, it drives like crap, but boy does that I-drive work great!" And then they note the the Caddy's gas mileage is second lowest all the while admitting they hammered the crap out of it because it was so much more fun to drive than the other cars. The gauges don't sparkle and the 1st gen CUE system doesn't match wits with the 4th gen I-drive; yeah the caddy sucks and the BMW fan boyz eat it up.

Cheers.

One thing people forget, reviews of the 335 against the competition is one thing, the 328 vs the competition is another.

The delta in handling between 328/335 is more pronounced in the F30 than it ever was in the E90.

But people cling to the negative 335 reviews, the ones where it loses by a point to the IS350, but forget about the 328 winning an 8 car comparo, wins against the C250, wins against the ATS 2.0T. Another example below:

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/...ison-test.html

I am not a Fanboi. I recognize how good the competition has gotten. The ATS is far better than first attempts from the Japanese 10 years ago. The Lexus, well I find the drivetrains are not up to snuff, the looks are off putting, no manual trans, but I recognize they got the handling/steering up to snuff. If not for my MSport 6mt, I would have had the ATS 2.0T 6mt.

[F32]

People still care about magazine comparos?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by F32

People still care about magazine comparos?

It would seem so around here. People cling to them to validate whatever position they choose.

So if Lexus makes an ugly car with no manual transmission we should run to the dealer to buy it because Car&Driver said so!!!!

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

It would seem so around here. People cling to them to validate whatever position they choose.

So if Lexus makes an ugly car with no manual transmission we should run to the dealer to buy it because Car&Driver said so!!!!

Yeah but what's the alternative? "My butt dyno and blind adherence to the notion of 'superior German engineering' says that my car is better than yours!"

At least magazine comparisons provide a bit of data. I'll take data over "BMWLover4ever529 on e90post says the 335i is way better than competitors" or "LexusFanBoi4lyfe on clublexus says the new IS350 destroys the competition in the steering/handling department!" because that's all I ever see.

Surprise, surprise - people on a BMW forum tend to think their cars are better than the competition. Same goes for people on a Cadillac forum or a Lexus forum or whatever.

And then, there are slightly larger in group/out group dynamics once you get past single brand names. You get German versus Japanese or German vs the world (and Japanese vs the world, America vs the world). Sometimes you'll get import (German or Japanese) versus American muscle.

[Jamesons Viggen]

I agree.

But not sure we are fighting the same fight.

I have issue with hating on the F30 when one has not driven one or had some base loaner and then pulls some article to try and support their biased vitriol.

I have no interest in needing to have the BEST car in the segment which some can debate is what I bought. What I did was buy the BEST car for MY needs. So anyone who chooses something other than what I did-fine with me lol. But magazine racers lacking real test drive experience who crap on thread after thread, quite lame.

Originally Posted by NemesisX

Yeah but what's the alternative? "My butt dyno and blind adherence to the notion of 'superior German engineering' says that my car is better than yours!"

At least magazine comparisons provide a bit of data. I'll take data over "BMWLover4ever529 on e90post says the 335i is way better than competitors" or "LexusFanBoi4lyfe on clublexus says the new IS350 destroys the competition in the steering/handling department!" because that's all I ever see.

Surprise, surprise - people on a BMW forum tend to think their cars are better than the competition. Same goes for people on a Cadillac forum or a Lexus forum or whatever.

And then, there are slightly larger in group/out group dynamics once you get past single brand names. You get German versus Japanese or German vs the world (and Japanese vs the world, America vs the world). Sometimes you'll get import (German or Japanese) versus American muscle.

[F1Venom]

I'm not surprised they don't have MT vehicles. There was a great MT CTS-V (new) at my Cadillac dealership but it stayed on the lot for at least nine months.

[Tigumz]

Am I the only one thinking the OP had a bad day on the golf course?

[ybbiz34]

Man I feel for car salesmen.