[G30M]

Originally Posted by NYG

Russel was overtaking inside and got a penalty for forcing Bottas (lead) off track. Lando was attempting to overtake outside on Max, who was ahead at the apex - Lando got a penalty for gaining advantage (carrying more speed through a wider radius off the track).

It's pretty straight forward and what all the greatest drivers of all time do. They'll push the limits of everything.

here is the Russell Bottas incident (video in the article)

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...U0UXF6atF2v23G

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Which driver in the image do we think got punished. A or B

A- The one that hit the apex when they passed someone and stayed on track
B- The driver that missed the Apex to drive another driver off the track and went off the track themselves

I think it's now known as the - Dictionary - Interlagos defense. Aim to take the car on the outside of you off the track with you with no attempt to stay on the circuit to defend against overtaking to get no punishment. Note must be in a Red Bull....

These were very different scenarios.

Max was defending and was clearly ahead. Rus was attacking and behind. That was the main difference. Nor due to lack of passing ability had no right tot he corner whereas Bot did.
I think hard nosed racing is what should be allowed but I truly don’t think most guys in F1 besides Max, Alo, and Lec actually want to race hard - most just want to go out for Sunday drives.

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Or punish them both and net off the impact or leave them to race if that is what they are doing.

In a way that's what happened if you read the stewards verdict, because normally it would be a 10sec penalty for Norris. They gave only 5sec. Remember it wasn't just the overtaking outside the track, Norris also had the black and white regarding tracklimits.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by fs1977

In a way that's what happened if you read the stewards verdict, because normally it would be a 10sec penalty for Norris. They gave only 5sec. Remember it wasn't just the overtaking outside the track, Norris also had the black and white regarding tracklimits.

They were both track limits at that time and nobody went over the total limits either despite earlier suggestion it was due to the way the computer showed the limits over two laps which wasn't correct.

We're they both in the wrong sure absolutely, did one deserve a punishment and not the other no. Did Max leave the required room either, no did he defend purposely off the circuit, yes. Did he do it twice during the race, again yes.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

If a driver has to roll out of the brakes to be ahead at the apex and then off the circuit to defend that is not legal racing. Overtaking off the circuit or defending off it is wrong plain and simple. Max did it twice and didn’t get a penalty once, that is just poor stewarding.

Or punish them both and net off the impact or leave them to race if that is what they are doing.

You guys are getting extreme with the specifics. Pretty soon you'll be asking the FIA to force drivers to give point-bys so they can gently pass them like on HPDE track days.

Over-regulating this stuff will destroy the racing and if you're being pragmatic about it, you know Lando just did not have the skill or enough of a car advantage to pass Max. I get it, it's not a good time for Brits. Let's not get out of hand though.

[NYG]

There should be no confusion here if you're unbiased.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by NYG

You guys are getting extreme with the specifics. Pretty soon you'll be asking the FIA to force drivers to give point-bys so they can gently pass them like on HPDE track days.

Over-regulating this stuff will destroy the racing and if you're being pragmatic about it, you know Lando just did not have the skill or enough of a car advantage to pass Max. I get it, it's not a good time for Brits. Let's not get out of hand though.

That’s my complaint, it is already over regulated and the column MontyB1 was a great analysis of that. If they keep going by this it’ll be damn near impossible to pass if all you have to do is get to the apex first and nothing else matters. It’s a rule 100% set up for defense and will further dissuade over taking except down the main straight under DRS.

The best example was the George penalty, if you can’t make that pass then how the hell are you ever supposed to pass legally on the majority of these tracks except down a straight with DRS?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by NYG

There should be no confusion here if you're unbiased.

Agreed except the other way. Yes he’s a master at exploiting the rules. I’m surprised it took this long for it to come up.

If this were done to Max instead of him doing it to Lando…….you know this conversation would be a whole lot different speaking of bias here.

You can see from the angle going into the apex, George is actually trying to make the corner normally and Max obviously isn’t.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by minn19

That’s my complaint, it is already over regulated and the column MontyB1 was a great analysis of that. If they keep going by this it’ll be damn near impossible to pass if all you have to do is get to the apex first and nothing else matters. It’s a rule 100% set up for defense and will further dissuade over taking except down the main straight under DRS.

The best example was the George penalty, if you can’t make that pass then how the hell are you ever supposed to pass legally on the majority of these tracks except down a straight with DRS?

Agreed that it's already over regulated but disagree that getting to the apex first makes it easy to defend. Lando could have focused on his exit and taken an inside line to pass Max as he corrected understeer from carrying too much speed. Lando just isn't good enough, at least yet. Gravel pits and all that would dissuade even further.

I also think DRS is lame.

F1 is kind of doing what the NFL is doing (mostly done). They have no idea how to balance competition and safety. Instead of removing regulation, they keep adding which will eventually turn it into complete garbage.

Originally Posted by minn19

You can see from the angle going into the apex, George is actually trying to make the corner normally and Max obviously isn’t.

Doesn't change that Lando should have given the position back. The penalty was clear cut per the rules.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by NYG

Agreed that it's already over regulated but disagree that getting to the apex first makes it easy to defend. Lando could have focused on his exit and taken an inside line to pass Max as he corrected understeer from carrying too much speed. Lando just isn't good enough, at least yet. Gravel pits and all that would dissuade even further.

I also think DRS is lame.



Doesn't change that Lando should have given the position back. The penalty was clear cut per the rules.

Agreed on what Lando should’ve done. Still think the rules need to be looked at/rewritten. You shouldn’t be able to go off track to defend, that’s gaining an advantage just as big to go off track to pass IMO.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by minn19

Agreed on what Lando should’ve done. Still think the rules need to be looked at/rewritten. You shouldn’t be able to go off track to defend, that’s gaining an advantage just as big to go off track to pass IMO.

I think they need to just let them raw dog like they used to.

Sporting is better without excessive regs, imo.

Max is just doing the same genius shit that Lewis, Schumacher, Senna, etc have done.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by NYG

I think they need to just let them raw dog like they used to.

Sporting is better without excessive regs, imo.

Max is just doing the same genius shit that Lewis, Schumacher, Senna, etc have done.

Agree with that wholeheartedly let them race.

And of course some of this is banter and a touch of bias from both sides, the sport had always had it let’s face it but it’s gone a little worse today than it needs to be.

[ptack]

So if Lando or McLaren had been a bit more clever, couldn't they have calculated how much faster Lando was than Max on hard tires and then just decided to pass him right away knowing that they could definitely afford the 5 second penalty at the end of the race?

[G30M]

Originally Posted by ptack

So if Lando or McLaren had been a bit more clever, couldn't they have calculated how much faster Lando was than Max on hard tires and then just decided to pass him right away knowing that they could definitely afford the 5 second penalty at the end of the race?

Yes they could. But it will be 10s not 5s. And if you get a safety car your lead will go down to 0s.

But that's not their problem. If you start P1 you should aim to be P1 after 1st corner and not trying to fight for P3

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by NYG

You guys are getting extreme with the specifics. Pretty soon you'll be asking the FIA to force drivers to give point-bys so they can gently pass them like on HPDE track days.

Over-regulating this stuff will destroy the racing and if you're being pragmatic about it, you know Lando just did not have the skill or enough of a car advantage to pass Max. I get it, it's not a good time for Brits. Let's not get out of hand though.

You hit the nail on the head. These are woke fans who don’t understand racing, especially hard racing. I personally would love to see more close wheel to wheel racing with cars that could allow for a bit more slight contact like you see in endurance racing. As I previously said, with the exception of Max and maybe 1 or 2 others on the grid, none of them know how to actually race or want to. Being able to pass and defend are neither attributes of Nor which is partly why in such a fast car his win rate is so bad.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by ptack

So if Lando or McLaren had been a bit more clever, couldn't they have calculated how much faster Lando was than Max on hard tires and then just decided to pass him right away knowing that they could definitely afford the 5 second penalty at the end of the race?

They assured Nor he was in the right, but I think the true reason was they knew if they let Max by it would have been near impossible for Nor to actually pass him. He proved that already in the race.

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

You hit the nail on the head. These are woke fans who don’t understand racing, especially hard racing. I personally would love to see more close wheel to wheel racing with cars that could allow for a bit more slight contact like you see in endurance racing. As I previously said, with the exception of Max and maybe 1 or 2 others on the grid, none of them know how to actually race or want to. Being able to pass and defend are neither attributes of Nor which is partly why in such a fast car his win rate is so bad.

I think Formula Cars (or all single seaters) are not fit for hard wheel to wheel racing. Cars are way to fragile, not to mention driver safety. Also I think for F1 it's a very thin line between overregulation and to little regulation.

If you really like hard, wheel to wheel racing, try to find some BTCC clips from back in the day with Murray Walker commentary. That was fantastic

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by fs1977

I think Formula Cars (or all single seaters) are not fit for hard wheel to wheel racing. Cars are way to fragile, not to mention driver safety. Also I think for F1 it's a very thin line between overregulation and to little regulation.

If you really like hard, wheel to wheel racing, try to find some BTCC clips from back in the day with Murray Walker commentary. That was fantastic

Yes, they’re far too fragile, but getting wheel to wheel should not be frowned upon and these days it feels that way. As NY said, it’s as if these guys want point bys vs having to work for position. I’m sure if you gave Nor the option for HPDE style F1 he’d be all in because it suits his lack of skill.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by minn19

Agreed on what Lando should’ve done. Still think the rules need to be looked at/rewritten. You shouldn’t be able to go off track to defend, that’s gaining an advantage just as big to go off track to pass IMO.

that's exactly what Jensen Button said

https://www.givemesport.com/jenson-b...ppen-us-gp-f1/

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by NYG

Agreed that it's already over regulated but disagree that getting to the apex first makes it easy to defend. Lando could have focused on his exit and taken an inside line to pass Max as he corrected understeer from carrying too much speed. Lando just isn't good enough, at least yet. Gravel pits and all that would dissuade even further.

I also think DRS is lame.

F1 is kind of doing what the NFL is doing (mostly done). They have no idea how to balance competition and safety. Instead of removing regulation, they keep adding which will eventually turn it into complete garbage.



Doesn't change that Lando should have given the position back. The penalty was clear cut per the rules.

Could you imagine if there was no DRS? nor would never have been able to even get close enough to make a move. I actually would not mind seeing DRS done away with. Another thing to separate the racers from those who can’t.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

These were very different scenarios.

Max was defending and was clearly ahead. Rus was attacking and behind. That was the main difference. Nor due to lack of passing ability had no right tot he corner whereas Bot did.
I think hard nosed racing is what should be allowed but I truly don’t think most guys in F1 besides Max, Alo, and Lec actually want to race hard - most just want to go out for Sunday drives.

Max was not defending, Max was attacking. Lando already took the place on the straight and was ahead of him before the corner. Max was attacking, trying to get the place back.

Photos are a mere snapshot and do not tell the whole story. Boiling it down to "Max was ahead at apex" is a simpleton look at it. He was attacking Lando and was just as guilty as Russel.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by dfox

Max was not defending, Max was attacking. Lando already took the place on the straight and was ahead of him before the corner. Max was attacking, trying to get the place back.

Photos are a mere snapshot and do not tell the whole story. Boiling it down to "Max was ahead at apex" is a simpleton look at it. He was attacking Lando and was just as guilty as Russel.

That isn’t the way it’s defined by the regulations nor am I simplifying it - just going be the facts of how it happened.. Max was defending since he was the one who was ahead and wasn’t the one making the pass (or attempt to) so yes, he was defending by the rule book and why the stewards deemed it so. It’s not Max’s fault Nor doesn’t know how to actually pass and furthermore he not even got the move completed so until that happens Max is still the defender.