[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You state car enthusiasts who don't accept the EV should be ashamed to call themselves enthusiasts. You state EV "haters" don't accept EV because they can't "separate" the vehicle from politics, but EV solely exist because of broad political policy and are being legislated in as a transition to alternative fueled vehicles. Legislated as THE ONLY choice. One thing car enthusiasts agree on is diversity of product and choice.

You've basically proven my point.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm a die hard car enthusiast, stop trying to insult your fellow fourm members who are enthusiasts.

I see how it works. So it's OK to call people who like EVs not real car enthusiasts or NPCs or whatever other insult ya'll like, but saying an EV hater is not a real car enthusiasts is an INSULT? Interesting double standard there.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You've basically proven my point.



I see how it works. So it's OK to call people who like EVs not real car enthusiasts or NPCs or whatever other insult ya'll like, but saying an EV hater is not a real car enthusiasts is an INSULT? Interesting double standard there.

Here's my post in this thread regarding the OP's discussion:

"I'll go in defense of the car guy assistance. While I'm not a fan of Tesla's Model 3/Y design nor the HMI inside because it's too much reliant on the screen, if the family member is keen on the charging requirements and understand what they are getting into, then I can't argue the choice. If it fits their use case of course.

The only friction I see is your family member is not car-oriented, which is fine, the World needs diversification, but with an EV it forces you to pay more attention to the apparatus. Tesla makes it much easier than the CCS EV environment, but it's still not gas-and-go like they are use to."

Nowhere did I state EV owners or EV advocates are not car enthusiasts. There are a lot of automobiles that are "appliance grade" (Toyota proudly makes them and some of the best examples) and some car enthusiasts own such vehicles, my E90 may fit that scenario; it's BMW's Camry (but drives waaaay better). In the other EV thread I've never suggested EV'ers aren't or can't be auto enthusiasts. And I don't "hate" EV, I just think powering them with a big-ass battery is just stupid and myopic.

But proving the point about the political aspect of EV, yup, exactly, the two are tied together at the hip. But you're wrong about separating the EV hate from the hate of the politics. I judge EV on their automotive merit too, I just don't see any merit that move me off the current ICEV architecture; EV don't offer anything over ICEV from my point of view.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Nowhere did I state EV owners or EV advocates are not car enthusiasts. There are a lot of automobiles that are "appliance grade" (Toyota proudly makes them and some of the best examples) and some car enthusiasts own such vehicles, my E90 may fit that scenario; it's BMW's Camry (but drives waaaay better). In the other EV thread I've never suggested EV'ers aren't or can't be auto enthusiasts. And I don't "hate" EV, I just think powering them with a big-ass battery is just stupid and myopic.

And my statement was not a reply to your post or directed at you. It was a general comment. Half the posts in this thread are indeed stating EV owners are not car enthusiasts or the like.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But proving the point about the political aspect of EV, yup, exactly, the two are tied together at the hip. But you're wrong about separating the EV hate from the hate of the politics. I judge EV on their automotive merit too, I just don't see any merit that move me off the current ICEV architecture; EV don't offer anything over ICEV from my point of view.

Again... I never mentioned you specifically. Honestly you are one of the more rational people in the EV threads... I see you in an EV in the future.

YOU may be able to judge EVs on their automotive merit, but many cannot. Just because they are tied to political policies does not mean they cannot be judged solely on their automotive merit. And Don't tell me all the rage is based on merit because you would never see this kind of rage for ANY other vehicle no matter how shitty it may be. If the OP had bought a corolla this thread would have been a half page of "Cool", "Congrats", "".

Like I've said more times than I care to count... I don't agree with any of the EV policies. I don't think they should be mandated (and I don't think it will end up happening either) and I don't think they should have any subsides... AND I still love my Tesla.

[Alfisti]

My only question is the value vs a gas powered car given the low annual mileage. What's a funnish but sensible alternative and what's it cost? Mazda maybe? X2 bimmer? Stelvio?

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But proving the point about the political aspect of EV, yup, exactly, the two are tied together at the hip. But you're wrong about separating the EV hate from the hate of the politics. I judge EV on their automotive merit too, I just don't see any merit that move me off the current ICEV architecture; EV don't offer anything over ICEV from my point of view.

Instantaneous neck-snapping acceleration from any speed, the ability to shift pollution out of densely populated areas, great efficiency in urban/suburban driving where you can regen to brake (mitigates battery weight to an extent), and lower cost per mile assuming you can home charge or have access to freebie chargers and the electricity rates are low enough for that to make sense are all merits for EV's.

But the barely 200 mile straight highway range is the first of several deal breakers for me. I despise everything about the various agendas for them as well, but I separate that out from the merits of the vehicles themselves. And I agree with you that the massive 1000-1500 lb batteries (or larger) are stupid.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Like I've said more times than I care to count... I don't agree with any of the EV policies. I don't think they should be mandated (and I don't think it will end up happening either) and I don't think they should have any subsides... AND I still love my Tesla.

That' my biggest beef with them, the way they're being rammed down everyone's throats whether we want them or they'd even work for us or not. They care not. They're going to make the ICEV regulatory requirements so onerous that many vehicle manufacturers will just give up on ICEV, which is precisely what they want. And then the powers that be will start their gas-lighting by saying "wE DiDn'T bAn GaS pOwErEd CaRs" when they effectively did.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

My only question is the value vs a gas powered car given the low annual mileage. What's a funnish but sensible alternative and what's it cost? Mazda maybe? X2 bimmer? Stelvio?

Good question.

I didn't realize how much nicer the X1/X2 has gotten. Might have been worth considering, but they weren't interested in any BMW's. Also in Cali the gas prices are already high enough as it is, so going from a vehicle that takes regular to one that requires premium isn't a good selling point. Definitely not a Stelvio. Alfas aren't known for their reliability. Mazda's are nice and they do tune many of them for regular grade fuel, but not really an "inspirational" brand. Not really a step up, although most anything is a huge step up from a 15+ year old Toyota.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

Instantaneous neck-snapping acceleration from any speed, the ability to shift pollution out of densely populated areas, great efficiency in urban/suburban driving where you can regen to brake (mitigates battery weight to an extent), and lower cost per mile assuming you can home charge or have access to freebie chargers and the electricity rates are low enough for that to make sense are all merits for EV's.

But the barely 200 mile straight highway range is the first of several deal breakers for me. I despise everything about the various agendas for them as well, but I separate that out from the merits of the vehicles themselves. And I agree with you that the massive 1000-1500 lb batteries (or larger) are stupid.

Cost per mile, yes, the only metric to consider. I've not done the calcs in about a year, but my past numbers never showed any total ownership cost advantage (cents per mile) when one compares the same class car in gas to EV (including govt. incentives).

[Humdizzle]

i ran the numbers for myself and EV didn't make sense. but 99% of my commute is 75mph highway. i'd only save $500 per 10k miles switching from a new 2024 civic (87 octane, 35mpg, $27000) to a used model 3 ($30,000). annual insurance cost is going to be more on the tesla as well (it would probably offset oil change costs on the civic).

civics interior absolutely blows a model 3 away imo.

the charge time was a deal breaker with how low the highway range is at 80mph. and i didn't want my trips to resolve around supercharger locations.

PHEV is the way imo. you get all the positives of electric without the drawbacks of low highway range or long wait time to charge when you're busy.

EV does make sense if you live in a large city with everything nearby

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

That' my biggest beef with them, the way they're being rammed down everyone's throats whether we want them or they'd even work for us or not. They care not. They're going to make the ICEV regulatory requirements so onerous that many vehicle manufacturers will just give up on ICEV, which is precisely what they want. And then the powers that be will start their gas-lighting by saying "wE DiDn'T bAn GaS pOwErEd CaRs" when they effectively did.

No doubt, but that has been an issue way before EVs. Most cars have been getting shittier and shitter (from a driving dynamics perspective) because of emission standards for a long time.

Like Cammisa said in that podcast posted in another thread. At this point for me, I would rather have an EV than some 4 cylinder turbo with a cvt pumping in fake engine sounds any day.

Will they manage to phase out ICE by making them shittier than EVs... maybe. However I don't think it will happen by 2030 or whatever they are claiming. At least not in the US (whats that like 2 election cycles away?). As has already been stated a million times in other threads EVs do not work for everyone. Lots of people do not have the ability to charge at home and in many places the grid could simply not handle everyone switching to EVs overnight.

None of that changes the fact that for many other people EVs are a better choice.

[NickyC]

Nice color, helluva deal.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Cost per mile, yes, the only metric to consider. I've not done the calcs in about a year, but my past numbers never showed any total ownership cost advantage (cents per mile) when one compares the same class car in gas to EV (including govt. incentives).

Well right now, because of their offset and ultra-flex work schedule working for a European company in California, and being able to just cruise on over to freebie Level 2 destination chargers and chill or hit the gym, mall, grocery store, etc. while everybody else is in the middle of their work day, their costs per mile are ZERO.

Not sure how long that will hold, but their old car would be about $2000 per year in gas at $6/gallon and how much they drive. Will not take long for that to really add up and completely offset the cost of the car vs. whatever they might have bought otherwise (no idea). Very atypical situation for sure, but that's the math in this case.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

Well right now, because of their offset and ultra-flex work schedule working for a European company in California, and being able to just cruise on over to freebie Level 2 destination chargers and chill or hit the gym, mall, grocery store, etc. while everybody else is in the middle of their work day, their costs per mile are ZERO.

Not sure how long that will hold, but their old car would be about $2000 per year in gas at $6/gallon and how much they drive. Will not take long for that to really add up and completely offset the cost of the car vs. whatever they might have bought otherwise (no idea). Very atypical situation for sure, but that's the math in this case.

You are leaving out (i.e. not including) the price of the car in the calculations.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i ran the numbers for myself and EV didn't make sense. but 99% of my commute is 75mph highway. i'd only save $500 per 10k miles switching from a new 2024 civic (87 octane, 35mpg, $27000) to a used model 3 ($30,000). annual insurance cost is going to be more on the tesla as well (it would probably offset oil change costs on the civic).

civics interior absolutely blows a model 3 away imo.

the charge time was a deal breaker with how low the highway range is at 80mph. and i didn't want my trips to resolve around supercharger locations.

PHEV is the way imo. you get all the positives of electric without the drawbacks of low highway range or long wait time to charge when you're busy.

EV does make sense if you live in a large city with everything nearby

Yes, straight highway comparing similarly sized vehicles and ICE/hybrid vs EV, the EV's rarely add up, especially in terms of "total energy consumption" by both.

Not a big fan of PHEV. Too complicated having two complete powertrains in one vehicle. Lots to go wrong also. I would consider a Toyota PHEV because it's their core competency, but BMW is sadly having lots of trouble with their 50e models right now. I would rather go straight ICEV or hybrid, or full EV, and skip the PHEV option. Really just depends on your mix of highway vs city driving. ICE/hybrid all favor highway, and EV/PHEV favor more city driving. Hybrids actually do quite well in both, but aren't going to match the performance of EV's is all.

For a long highway commute, you're not gonna beat the new Prius!

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You are leaving out (i.e. not including) the price of the car in the calculations.

Right. If you're talking compared to an ICEV, there was never a serious contender in the running in this case, so nothing to run any numbers against.