[jaye944]

ok,
AFAIK and as a general rule of thumb

Just because you die it doesn't mean your DEBTS go away.

Generally the ESTATE of the deceased owes any money,

I believe what happens, is AFTER Funeral costs (if they have already been allotted say in the will) then ANY debts to any 3rd parties are paid from the estate.

THEN anything else goes according to the last W&T

It is entirely possible that BMW are owed money, BUT GET ACTUAL LEGAL ADVISE for your state/country.

It is also up to the deceased's executor to DEAL with this if one was appointed, if not the courts will decide. IF he died intestate the courts WILL decide.

It is also possible that BMW will not want to be seen to be pursuing a poor widow through the legal system just for a couple of lost payments, and could write it off. It's not good PR, and I would make the point VERY aware to them.

I feel your pain; I lost my Dad and had to deal with family infighting; he died in Canada and not home; so I had to fork out nearly 10k for funeral and stuff; I think I claimed back half of that eventually;

Got screwed by my own sisters , yes you def. know whos your friend when somone dies, trust me.

HTH

RIP to you Dad

Originally Posted by rhk118

then she will be responsible for the difference which will likely be in excess of $10,000. He other options would be to sell the car herself, resume the lease, or trade it in on a new lease or purchase.

[BEM-S4]

Any sentimental attachment to the car? If it were me I'd have trouble letting it go. Actively trying to track down a few of my father's cars and finding them again is a HUGE pain in the ass.

Anyway best of luck this does sound like quite a mess. My father has been sick off and on so we've thought about exactly what you're dealing with when leasing. If it makes you feel any better it's not something you can even plan for with them. If you want the car the only thing you can do is consign for
It so the transfer to you is a lot easier. There's no prepackaged way to fix this in advance.

[Mr. Hankey]

Just another update. BMW auctioned off the car and my mom received a bill in the mail today stating that she owes them $12,385.00 by tomorrow for the residual value of the car after BMW auctioned it off, including all their fees - cleaning, transport, auction fee...etc.

This was after we were told by BMWFS to just return the car to a dealer and provide a copy of the will and death certificate (which is why we decided to return the thing in the first place)...then found out later from them that we may owe money but it could not exceed the value of the remaining payments on the lease (he had 7 payments left, about $5000). This is obviously way more than the remaining payments he had on the car. My mom called in tears.

In any event, this is just a shitty situation and something that anyone considering leasing a vehicle from this particular company should know...they will pursue every last dollar. Her attorney is handling it and was actually quite angered by the letter and short notice of time that my mom received. Although did say to my mom that based on the contract it should have an "easy resolution"...we will see about that...nothing has been easy with BMWFS and everytime you call you get a different answer from them.

I am personally done with this company for life. Mine is my first and last BMW. P-cars next.

[kent11202]

Wow! What jerks they are. Only $5K in remaining lease payments and they manage to tack on an extra $7K in "charges" in fees, cleaning and transport costs?

If the car was dropped off early (which it was) it seems to me that, at best, they were entitled to the remaining payments, surrender fee ($350) and any "reconditioning" (if any) and yet they decide to load things up to get even more money. The more people that read this thread the more they will lose in future sales down the road - not that they really give a damn.

Thanks for keeping everyone updated. Hopefully your attorney can get this mess straightened out in your mom's favor quickly - she, and you, already have enough to deal with.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by kent11202

Wow! What jerks they are. Only $5K in remaining lease payments and they manage to tack on an extra $7K in "charges" in fees, cleaning and transport costs?

If the car was dropped off early (which it was) it seems to me that, at best, they were entitled to the remaining payments, surrender fee ($350) and any "reconditioning" (if any) and yet they decide to load things up to get even more money. The more people that read this thread the more they will lose in future sales down the road - not that they really give a damn.

Thanks for keeping everyone updated. Hopefully your attorney can get this mess straightened out in your mom's favor quickly - she, and you, already have enough to deal with.

No that wasn't all fees. They auctioned off the car and it had a stated value of $39,475.13. They sold it at auction for $27,500.00...They sent her a bill for the difference in auctioned amount versus their stated value plus about $450 in miscellaneous fees. The early termination of lease agreement in the contract states that the lessee cannot be billed more than the net value of the remaining payments plus their $350 fee. This bill, sent on very short notice, is clearly WAYYYY more than that (was between 4-5K when we turned it in). I personally was told 2 different things by BMWFS as to what to do which made us decide to turn the car in early, my brother in law was told something completely different by them as well. We both have notes /names / dates.

In any event it seems BMWFS are just trying to get her to pay by sending a last minute notice that $12K is literally due TOMORROW and hoping she doesn't understand the terms of the lease...this is a complete slime ball move that I would expect to happen at the dealership when buying/leasing the car (sorry guys/dealers), but not in this circumstance. Needless to say the attorney is saying this really isn't our problem anymore...it's now their problem, but I'd be happy for my mom if it just went away. Surely death of a lessee must be a common occurrence for them, yet they can't give out consistent information. Anyway I think this thread has been helpful to me as a reality check but in retrospect probably good to keep everyone informed, and hope that none of you are ever in this situation with this company in particular.

[kent11202]

No that wasn't all fees. They auctioned off the car and it had a stated value of $39,475.13. They sold it at auction for $27,500.00...They sent her a bill for the difference in auctioned amount versus their stated value plus about $450 in miscellaneous fees. The early termination of lease agreement in the contract states that the lessee cannot be billed more than the net value of the remaining payments plus their $350 fee.

I understand. Paranoia being what it is, I can't help but suspect something is rotten in Denmark.

I wonder who, exactly, managed to buy it for 30% below the "stated value." Was that the retail "stated value?" In any event, this entire thing stinks - your mom, at worst, should only be liable for the remaining payments, surrender charge and minimal (if any) reconditioning IMO.

Was it purchased at auction by a friend of someone connected to this situation/dealership? I'd be curious myself but, like I said, paranoia.....

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by kent11202

Was it purchased at auction by a friend of someone connected to this situation/dealership? I'd be curious myself but, like I said, paranoia.....

Wouldn't surprise me...

[iminhell1]

The thing that bothers me is that BMWFS asked for the will. That doesn't make any sense to me. IMHO (not legal) they have no right to see the will, unless they were specifically mentioned in it; which I'm quite sure they where not.
I mean what are they planning? If your dad left $10K to the church and still owed BMWFS money, they'd get a portion from the church fund? Debts before charity?

[JDubz]

OP - I would probably escalate and ask them to pull the recorded calls and honor what their reps told you.

Even if what you were told is not legally correct, I would expect most companies would do the right thing in this situation, but you have to get in touch with the right person at BMW. Especially given that you are a current customer.

I believe that - given the estate laws in each state, they may be able to collect on that at all. (Given that your dad doesn't seem to have an estate outside of his residence) But I'm not a lawyer, no idea.

If you haven't already, I would avoid getting lawyers involved as long as you can. They will have procedures they have to follow and you may not have any recourse at all.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by iminhell1

The thing that bothers me is that BMWFS asked for the will. That doesn't make any sense to me. IMHO (not legal) they have no right to see the will, unless they were specifically mentioned in it; which I'm quite sure they where not.
I mean what are they planning? If your dad left $10K to the church and still owed BMWFS money, they'd get a portion from the church fund? Debts before charity?

Providing the will I think just proved to them who the executor of the estate was going to be so they knew where to send the bills (because they did). I agree it probably wasn't allowed however he died 3 days earlier, and this was the day after thanksgiving I called them. Wasn't in a rational place myself to think it through. So just sent the info to them.

Originally Posted by JDubz

OP - I would probably escalate and ask them to pull the recorded calls and honor what their reps told you.

Even if what you were told is not legally correct, I would expect most companies would do the right thing in this situation, but you have to get in touch with the right person at BMW. Especially given that you are a current customer.

I believe that - given the estate laws in each state, they may be able to collect on that at all. (Given that your dad doesn't seem to have an estate outside of his residence) But I'm not a lawyer, no idea.

If you haven't already, I would avoid getting lawyers involved as long as you can. They will have procedures they have to follow and you may not have any recourse at all.

I tried with one of the reps to escalate the call and he wouldn't, also asked them to get the prior recorded calls and was told there were none. My brother in law who is much more business savvy than I am was able to get to a high level manager who assured him it would likely go away ("but would deny it if asked")...and well it hasn't. At this point the bill they sent is a clear breach of "early lease termination" verbiage in the lease agreement itself...you'd think BMWFS would know this since computers are obviously processing all their logic at BMWFS, and they are following cue cards onscreen. Attorney has been involved and aware for some time now since my mom needs help with a a lot of other matters, and seems to think it won't be a problem.

We're not about getting out of paying what is fair in the contract. BMWFS from day one has given us 3 different messages. The first 2 messages directly from BMWFS were WRONG information that we acted upon, and had we had the correct information at the time would have made a different decision (I would have just assumed the lease myself or purchased the car outright, no biggie, just don't need it and my mom didn't want it because of the emotional aspect that it was his car). Now we're in a situation where the car is gone and at least on paper BMWFS is showing a large financial loss on this vehicle, but again are billing my mom for the net loss, when the contract clearly says no more than the remaining payments plus the $350 fee. So at this point we have a bit of a problem with BMWFS. Attorney is good. "Wasted money" on attorney not so much an issue.

The emotional roller coaster alone is just about unforgivable...I like to think I'm pretty reasonable, but this ordeal has been over the line...watching my mom go through all this crap and trying to support her has been tough.

[Mr. Hankey]

BMWFS - learn from Mercedes...

When a lease customer dies during his or her term, what happens to the contract?

That’s the case for less than 1 percent of the clients in Mercedes-Benz Financial Services USA’s portfolio. Previously, Mercedes-Benz Financial employees were assigned to those lease accounts and spoke with the clients’ families.

The conversations were difficult not only for the family members, but for the employees.

So in 2014, Mercedes-Benz Financial brought in a grief counselor to help employees learn how to best handle those phone calls, and the company launched the Customer Bereavement Program.

Now, if the account is up to date, the deceased client’s family has two options:

• Return the vehicle within 10 days and allow Mercedes-Benz Financial to relieve them of payments; or

• Transfer the vehicle to a family member’s name. That family member can either take over the payments or pay off the vehicle.

Sometimes, there is sentimental value to the vehicle, so family members want to keep it, said Sauna Gordon, senior manager of collections. But other times, family members have no need for the vehicle, or they can’t afford it.

A year and a half into the program, employees now “feel better prepared to support a grieving family” while handling the family member’s account, Gordon said. “Both family members and our dealers who work with families after a loss have expressed positive feedback and gratitude for the program,” she said.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...rieving-family

[BeEmVe]

Originally Posted by iminhell1

The thing that bothers me is that BMWFS asked for the will. That doesn't make any sense to me. IMHO (not legal) they have no right to see the will, unless they were specifically mentioned in it; which I'm quite sure they where not.
I mean what are they planning? If your dad left $10K to the church and still owed BMWFS money, they'd get a portion from the church fund? Debts before charity?

It really depends on the state. From my very limited dealing with such issues wills become public by virtue of being submitted to the probate court. Probate is required if the assets are above a set limit. If probate is not required then the will need not be submitted (an affidavit stating the assets are less than the set limit may be required). Further, an executor is only for probate. No probate, no executor (and all named in the will have equal say).

In the case of the first spouse passing probate is may not be needed because of assets being held in joint-tenacy which means those assets are immediately passed to the surviving spouse. As such, the remaining assets could well be below the set limits.

As for BMW asking for the will, that is actually pretty egregious. I would have told them to pound sand. We did something similar when debt collectors tried to get information about my wife's father after he passed away.

When everything is done and the OP can muster the effort I would suggest filing a complaint with the BBB.

[kent11202]

Originally Posted by rhk118

BMWFS - learn from Mercedes...

When a lease customer dies during his or her term, what happens to the contract?

That’s the case for less than 1 percent of the clients in Mercedes-Benz Financial Services USA’s portfolio. Previously, Mercedes-Benz Financial employees were assigned to those lease accounts and spoke with the clients’ families.

The conversations were difficult not only for the family members, but for the employees.

So in 2014, Mercedes-Benz Financial brought in a grief counselor to help employees learn how to best handle those phone calls, and the company launched the Customer Bereavement Program.

Now, if the account is up to date, the deceased client’s family has two options:

• Return the vehicle within 10 days and allow Mercedes-Benz Financial to relieve them of payments; or

• Transfer the vehicle to a family member’s name. That family member can either take over the payments or pay off the vehicle.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...rieving-family

Mercedes has done even better than that in the past (prior to 2014) - at least one time I'm aware of. The husband contracted cancer and approached the dealer with a "what if he didn't make it" scenario. The dealer told him they would take the car back and forgive any remaining lease payments. Bear in mind this was an "anticipatory" question and the dealership didn't even ask for proof of the cancer situation. Probably a one in 10,000 situation but they certainly demonstrated a great deal of compassion IMO. Oh, he did turn the car back in shortly after and, as luck would have it his cancer subsequently went into remission - after that happened he bought another MBZ. Why not? They stepped up to the plate.

[drexplode]

Originally Posted by rhk118

BMWFS - learn from Mercedes...

When a lease customer dies during his or her term, what happens to the contract?

That’s the case for less than 1 percent of the clients in Mercedes-Benz Financial Services USA’s portfolio. Previously, Mercedes-Benz Financial employees were assigned to those lease accounts and spoke with the clients’ families.

The conversations were difficult not only for the family members, but for the employees.

So in 2014, Mercedes-Benz Financial brought in a grief counselor to help employees learn how to best handle those phone calls, and the company launched the Customer Bereavement Program.

Now, if the account is up to date, the deceased client’s family has two options:

• Return the vehicle within 10 days and allow Mercedes-Benz Financial to relieve them of payments; or

• Transfer the vehicle to a family member’s name. That family member can either take over the payments or pay off the vehicle.

Sometimes, there is sentimental value to the vehicle, so family members want to keep it, said Sauna Gordon, senior manager of collections. But other times, family members have no need for the vehicle, or they can’t afford it.

A year and a half into the program, employees now “feel better prepared to support a grieving family” while handling the family member’s account, Gordon said. “Both family members and our dealers who work with families after a loss have expressed positive feedback and gratitude for the program,” she said.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...rieving-family

I'm sorry for your family's lose.

I agree, a multi-billion dollar company losing 12k is peanuts - they probably spend more than that on lunches for their executives in a quarter. Their point is to avoid a loop-hole which some may choose to expose; however, after providing adequate documentation the discussion should end and result into a situation like MB - "i'm sorry, please trade in the vehicle at your local dealership at your convenience within X-days".

In many cases I think that BMW is far better with it's contracts, website, flexibility, lease programs, lease transfers, etc but in this case they have failed. No D for diploma - pure F.

[The Wind Breezes]

You got seriously taken advantage of. They probably would have done it anyway, but companies often push for extra $$ when there's a death since it's obvious that the customer isn't in their right mind. It's fucked up but that's how it is. I'd first say talk to a lawyer but if you knew any you'd have done that immediately. You have grounds to sue but it won't be worth it unless you have a friend file for pennies. So, if anyone else reads this and doesn't want to have the same thing happen, but you aren't interested in hiring a lawyer, here's what you need to do:

1) figure out your case then state it confidently and repeatedly going up the management chain as necessary. That last part is not optional, it is essential if you are to succeed because often lower down nobody gives a shit. All this is reverse customer service 101 but nobody knows how to do it!! I can all but guarantee that if you politely used this methodology the situation would not have proceeded as you described. You would have instead gotten a verbal / written apology and only been on the hook maximum for what the contract stated.

[catcher22]

I hate dishonest people.

I hate dishonest businesses even more.

Do not do any further business with them where they can make a profit off you/your mom.

Also, nobody seriously cares about social media these days unless you make it to the news/CNN. And even then, they'll just drag it out until everybody forgets and nobody cares again. Even the BBB is more threatening than social media, which isn't much. Heck, most people already forgot about the Takata airbag issues and that's huge.

Sorry to hear about your father.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

You got seriously taken advantage of. They probably would have done it anyway, but companies often push for extra $$ when there's a death since it's obvious that the customer isn't in their right mind. It's fucked up but that's how it is. I'd first say talk to a lawyer but if you knew any you'd have done that immediately. You have grounds to sue but it won't be worth it unless you have a friend file for pennies. So, if anyone else reads this and doesn't want to have the same thing happen, but you aren't interested in hiring a lawyer, here's what you need to do:

1) figure out your case then state it confidently and repeatedly going up the management chain as necessary. That last part is not optional, it is essential if you are to succeed because often lower down nobody gives a shit. All this is reverse customer service 101 but nobody knows how to do it!! I can all but guarantee that if you politely used this methodology the situation would not have proceeded as you described. You would have instead gotten a verbal / written apology and only been on the hook maximum for what the contract stated.

Ummm. We did this. First customer service experience was very cordial and they told me we could return the car to dealership and would have to pay lease end damages only (dings...etc), payments would go away.

That's what we did. Dealership agreed that's all we had to do. Returned the car.

About a month later got a $3000 bill from BMWFS for 1 missed payment that was sent the DAY after payment was missed...this prompted call #2 to BMWFS. Talked to an arrogant know-it-all rep who himself told me we were given wrong information and because we voluntary gave up the car then this would happen. This is not in writing anywhere in the contract by the way. Asked to bump it up and he refused. Told me his manager is right next to him nodding and won't speak with me.

My brother in law then called (I live 8 hrs away) and got a manager who basically said we were given wrong information but it will likely just "go away"...and now situation is described as above. We have names, times, notes from each call.

Do some research yourself about BMWFS. They are ruthless. They get themselves in trouble all the time for stuff like this. They can't answer questions appropriately, give misinformation, and can't even follow their own rules/contracts. Whatever. This will get taken care of. They will continue to do this to others, it's obviously in their DNA. I wouldn't wish having to deal with this company on anyone, let alone voluntarily.

I know they have to deal with a lot of "stupid people" and that's the way they act the way they do. They're going for high volume and they're a lease machine of overpriced vehicles riding a luxury brand name. So they kinda have to be ruthless to avoid huge losses since people like my dad can get his hands on one (and loved every minute of it). But I am far from stupid or naive on business strategy/structure/operations (maybe so far that I am )....I imagine most in this situation just roll over. Not rolling. Not amused.

[infamousdiz]

to bad you cant remove all assets from the estate, BMW cant get what you don't have.

[jsublime]

Wow, sorry BMW is adding insult to your loss.

Just FYI, your attorney should already be aware of this but by asking for more than is allowed on the lease contract, BMW has possibly opened themselves up to liability under your state's consumer protection laws. For example, in Florida, I believe it's a violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act to ask for more than what is actually owed. A violation doesn't mean you don't have to pay the debt but you could possibly recoup some money from them thereby lowering the debt. This is just an example.

Wish you luck resolving this. If I ever decide to lease a car when I'm older I will certainly now take a good look at Mercedes, very interesting philosophy difference. In fact your case could probably be included in a business text book: How to lose a customer for life in 3 easy steps.

[lemetier]

Very sorry for your loss and have been there myself. I've also had to look at these things recently for my own estate and have been on the other side as well.

FWIW, there is a clear break down on what steps needed to be done and by whom. Unfortunately if the probate laws in the state governing the estate do not insulate the estate or its beneficiaries from responsibility of the debt, the dealer not reporting the vehicle as voluntarily returned for early lease termination, as you stated, began a process that will be complex and emotionally aggravated.

As soon as the first payment was missed, the clock began ticking on what contractural clauses and language becomes effective and which department is assigned the matter.

In this case currently, this appears to have been deemed a Breach of Contract and repossession rather than an Early Termination Agreement which needed to be handled by the Executor on behalf of the estate and it's beneficiaries to insure the procedures were followed.

The department you and your mother are dealing with now is the Collections Department and they normally do not handle this type of situation as it is generally resolved by FS Customer Service well before that departmental handover.

It's going to take a top-level department head at Collections to begin to undo this entire situation. I'll PM you the contact info for just such a person, but suggest the attorney handle the communications.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Very sorry for your loss and have been there myself. I've also had to look at these things recently for my own estate and have been on the other side as well.

FWIW, there is a clear break down on what steps needed to be done and by whom. Unfortunately if the probate laws in the state governing the estate do not insulate the estate or its beneficiaries from responsibility of the debt, the dealer not reporting the vehicle as voluntarily returned for early lease termination, as you stated, began a process that will be complex and emotionally aggravated.

As soon as the first payment was missed, the clock began ticking on what language becomes effective and which department is assigned the matter.

In this case currently, this appears to have been deemed a Breach of Contract and repossession rather than an Early Termination Agreement which needed to be handled by the Executor on behalf of the estate and it's beneficiaries to insure the procedures were followed.

The department you and your mother are dealing with now is the Collections Department and they normally do not handle this type of situation as it is generally resolved by FS Customer Service well before that departmental handover.

It's going to take a top-level department head at Collections to begin to undo this entire situation I'll PM you the contact info for just such a person, but suggest the attorney handle the communications.

Fantastic, greatly appreciate it! From a 20,000 foot view, that seems to sum up what happened entirely.

[x3lr]

What ended up happening? How much did your family have to pay BMW? Did it take a long time to resolve? I am on my 4th BMW lease and your story is very disappointing. My relative died after leasing a BMW, but I'm not handling his estate so I don't know what's happening with the financial obligations.