[David70]

I used to live in Hermosa Beach, CA (in a small one bedroom apartment). Then job transfer took me back to Chattanooga, TN. Friends out there couldn't understand why I would be interested in moving back to TN (most seemed to think CA was the center of the universe and had everything they wanted) but at the same time they couldn't seem to grasp that my pay would stay the same but I would effectively move up a couple of income levels. Suddenly buying a new car and a house was easily obtainable. Then, like this post they continued to live in one of the most expensive areas for housing costs while complaining about high housing costs. Like living in Arizona and complaining about the heat.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Dude, seriously...you have it good. Bio-Engineering is better than Art History. It's partially luck, partially how you look for a job. You're so damn close man. Review the manner of how you're looking and applying for a job. Also, is your region even relevant in the field? Thought about coming to the Bay Area? Do you have to be where you are today? Just a few thoughts.

When my wife and I moved from DC to SF, I had to change jobs. I was discouraged for a good 3 months too. But I realized, for me and my field, it was about the manner of how I was going about looking for a job. Your chances of hitting an interview doing "blind application submissions on company websites" is pretty much the lowest probability out there. It's about finding the right recruiter or even using the paid LinkedIn feature to help you search smart. Remember, work smart not hard at this point when it comes to looking for a job.

Serious dude, your degree IS a good investment, don't get discouraged b/c you don't have a job today. You're so damn close.

Ohh I have a job, my point is that the "investment" I made on that education isn't giving me a return that is worthwhile. As a senior in high school I was lead to believe my income with this degree would be significantly higher, so I financed it because I believed the end result would be worth it. Fast forward 5 years and my starting salary was about 60% of what I expected. As such, ALL my disposable income goes to paying off debt. Saving up to buy a home is a pipe dream. Relocating? I'd love to, I loathe living in Ohio and I've been actively trying to escape since before I even went to college - but BS engineers with less than a decade of experience are a dime-a-dozen, why would a company pay to relocate me AND pay me enough to cover the cost-of-living increase when they can throw a rock outside their building and get one for a song?

[csu87]

Originally Posted by fravel

Ohh I have a job, my point is that the "investment" I made on that education isn't giving me a return that is worthwhile. As a senior in high school I was lead to believe my income with this degree would be significantly higher, so I financed it because I believed the end result would be worth it. Fast forward 5 years and my starting salary was about 60% of what I expected. As such, ALL my disposable income goes to paying off debt. Saving up to buy a home is a pipe dream. Relocating? I'd love to, I loathe living in Ohio and I've been actively trying to escape since before I even went to college - but BS engineers with less than a decade of experience are a dime-a-dozen, why would a company pay to relocate me AND pay me enough to cover the cost-of-living increase when they can throw a rock outside their building and get one for a song?

Not trying to get too far off track here, but do you have your PE or any other certs? Sure freshly graduated engineers are a dime a dozen, but as soon as you set yourself apart with a PE, you put yourself into another category.

I work with and intereact with engineers every day and that is the general consensus as to how to progress far enough in your career where you have the flexibility to find a job wherever and command a higher salary.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by fravel

why would a company pay to relocate me

Perhaps you need to consider investing in the move yourself to further your career or to build a life in a location you prefer. Many people do it, you just have to want it hard enough. It gets harder to pick up and leave as you get older, if you really want it, go for it while you can.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by csu87

Not trying to get too far off track here, but do you have your PE or any other certs? Sure freshly graduated engineers are a dime a dozen, but as soon as you set yourself apart with a PE, you put yourself into another category.

I work with and intereact with engineers every day and that is the general consensus as to how to progress far enough in your career where you have the flexibility to find a job wherever and command a higher salary.

There isn't a PE for biomed (or at least there wasn't the last time I looked). Our capstone professors told us not to bother... it also would require me to find a job working under a PE and stay there for 5 years before I was even qualified to sit for the exam.

Originally Posted by tdott

Perhaps you need to consider investing in the move yourself to further your career or to build a life in a location you prefer. Many people do it, you just have to want it hard enough. It gets harder to pick up and leave as you get older, if you really want it, go for it while you can.

What part of 'crippling long term debt' don't you understand? Doing what you're suggesting would require me to go without income for at least a month, I'd starve before I could get work - not an option. Not to mention how would I secure housing without an established income?

[David70]

Originally Posted by fravel

Ohh I have a job, my point is that the "investment" I made on that education isn't giving me a return that is worthwhile. As a senior in high school I was lead to believe my income with this degree would be significantly higher, so I financed it because I believed the end result would be worth it. Fast forward 5 years and my starting salary was about 60% of what I expected. As such, ALL my disposable income goes to paying off debt. Saving up to buy a home is a pipe dream. Relocating? I'd love to, I loathe living in Ohio and I've been actively trying to escape since before I even went to college - but BS engineers with less than a decade of experience are a dime-a-dozen, why would a company pay to relocate me AND pay me enough to cover the cost-of-living increase when they can throw a rock outside their building and get one for a song?

In the long run your college education is almost certain to pay off. Basing what you make now on college being a bad investment for your whole life doesn't make a lot of sense. You have been working 2 years of the total of 40 you will work?

Also, if you don't like where you are living expand your job search to other areas, worst case is you are correct and they won't pay relocation but at the same time relocation costs are pretty minimal for most recent college grads. You said owning a home is a pipe dream so relocation costs involve finding a job, an apartment and moving a minimal amount of stuff some distance? Seems like this should be possible with a small amount of savings and far from a pipe dream.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by David70

In the long run your college education is almost certain to pay off. Basing what you make now on college being a bad investment for your whole life doesn't make a lot of sense. You have been working 2 years of the total of 40 you will work?

This is the other side of my problem with this "investment." Sure, 40 years from now I'm sure I'll be fine in a financial sense, but I'll have wasted my entire life trying to get to that point. It's too long of a timeline to make it a good investment.

Part of the point of going to college was to be able to afford to start a family, buy a home, build a life, take vacations, collect experiences and all the other awesome stuff that college grads used to do in their late 20's - 30's. I'll have to skip all that. Is it really "getting ahead" if you've already got one foot in the grave when you get there?

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Easier said then done. When shit hits the fan like 2008 and everyone around you are losing their jobs, will you have the balls to drop $300k+ on a house that might loose more value?

I am in south FL, it will be half that, when that happens... and yes...

[David70]

Originally Posted by fravel

This is the other side of my problem with this "investment." Sure, 40 years from now I'm sure I'll be fine in a financial sense, but I'll have wasted my entire life trying to get to that point. It's too long of a timeline to make it a good investment.

Part of the point of going to college was to be able to afford to start a family, buy a home, build a life, take vacations, collect experiences and all the other awesome stuff that college grads used to do in their late 20's - 30's. I'll have to skip all that. Is it really "getting ahead" if you've already got one foot in the grave when you get there?

How old are you? Seems like the doom and gloom "one foot in the grave" are overblown and from what I understand I was in the same position you were when I graduated.

I am 46, graduated from engineering school in 1993 a BS in Industrial Engineering, had $27k in college debt ($45k today's dollars). Moved to a different city for a job and my "relocation package" was them paying for the U-Haul rental and fuel. Bought my first house at 30 but it was a house with three apartments (strongly recommend doing this) and I lived in one of them so hardly living the life. I thought the same thing you do now but it was 23 years ago.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by JS135

This ^^ really bothers the hell out of me.

Not quite as bad in the Toronto area but it's getting worse.

There are a bunch of townhouses at burnamthorpe and dixie, decent neighbourhood but nothing special. These are extremely narrow, stairs everywhere and about 5 years old.

You need $800K to score one, that's absolutely crazy.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by David70

How old are you? Seems like the doom and gloom "one foot in the grave" are overblown and from what I understand I was in the same position you were when I graduated.

I am 46, graduated from engineering school in 1993 a BS in Industrial Engineering, had $27k in college debt ($45k today's dollars). Moved to a different city for a job and my "relocation package" was them paying for the U-Haul rental and fuel. Bought my first house at 30 but it was a house with three apartments (strongly recommend doing this) and I lived in one of them so hardly living the life. I thought the same thing you do now but it was 23 years ago.

I'm on the backside of 28, my debt is double that (in today's dollars), and we aren't in the economic boom of the 90's. Hell, your starting salary 23 years ago was probably comparable to what mine was 20 years later! I appreciate the sentiment but the experiences of previous generations just isn't applicable today. I know it sounds like I'm just bitching, but I'm really just trying to change the perception about the "value" of college so that it lines up better with reality.

The "investment" these days is trade school, not college.

[rad doc]

Originally Posted by fravel

This is the other side of my problem with this "investment." Sure, 40 years from now I'm sure I'll be fine in a financial sense, but I'll have wasted my entire life trying to get to that point. It's too long of a timeline to make it a good investment.

Part of the point of going to college was to be able to afford to start a family, buy a home, build a life, take vacations, collect experiences and all the other awesome stuff that college grads used to do in their late 20's - 30's. I'll have to skip all that. Is it really "getting ahead" if you've already got one foot in the grave when you get there?

Not to offend you but you sound like a whiny bi&$*. Undergrad degrees are a dime a dozen. Suck it up and get an advanced degree or deal with delayed gratification. If even 1% of your attitude permeates into your daily work you will go nowhere quick. Sorry but a college degree doesn't guarantee success. I didnt get to do those "awesome experiences" for quite sometime after college.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by fravel

I'm on the backside of 28, my debt is double that (in today's dollars), and we aren't in the economic boom of the 90's. Your starting salary 23 years ago was probably comparable to what mine 4 years ago! I appreciate the sentiment but the experiences of previous generations just isn't applicable today. I know it sounds like I'm just bitching, but I'm really just trying to change the perception about the "value" of college so that it lines up better with reality.

The "investment" these days is trade school, not college.

Actually, you're dead wrong saying that the experience of previous generations isn't applicable.

A University education was always a long-term investment. Any university degree. You have the costs of school plus the lost income for the duration of your education. People who get jobs straight out of high school or go the trades route with a paying apprenticeship will always be ahead of the game two years out, four years out, probably as far as a decade out. If you made the decision to go to college based on a calculation that looked at the economics of a post-secondary degree anything less than a decade post-graduation that was your mistake. The question you should have asked yourself was not whether you'd be ahead of the game in 2016, but whether you'd be ahead of the game in 2021, or 2027. If you weren't prepared for that reality ... you made the wrong decision.

That is exactly the same paradigm for anyone who graduated high school in 2010. or 2000, or 1990, or 1980.

You are looking to blame others for your faulty decision making, instead of owning up to the decision you did make and figuring out how to capitalize on it.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by rad doc

Not to offend you but you sound like a whiny bi&$*. Undergrad degrees are a dime a dozen. Suck it up and get an advanced degree or deal with delayed gratification. If even 1% of your attitude permeates into your daily work you will go nowhere quick. Sorry but a college degree doesn't guarantee success. I didnt get to do those "awesome experiences" for quite sometime after college.

I hear you, and I agree. My point is that no one tells that to potential college students until after they've graduated and fucked themselves into a life of debt. We need to stop telling kids that college is an investment, or that it is "good" debt. It's not.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

A University education was always a long-term investment. Any university degree. You have the costs of school plus the lost income for the duration of your education. People who get jobs straight out of high school or go the trades route with a paying apprenticeship will always be ahead of the game two years out, four years out, probably as far as a decade out. If you made the decision to go to college based on a calculation that looked at the economics of a post-secondary degree anything less than a decade post-graduation that was your mistake.

This gets to the crux of my argument. I disagree that the trade school route is only ahead for a decade or so anymore. The dynamic has shifted to where the buying power of myself and my peers will be trailing behind skilled tradesmen for 20-30 years, not 10.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by fravel

I'm on the backside of 28, my debt is double that (in today's dollars), and we aren't in the economic boom of the 90's.

$90k? What did you do? Go away to school, party every summer, didn't work a part-time job?

Yup, surely none of it is through any fault of your own. I think you make a great example of what is wrong with your generation.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by tdott

$90k? What did you do? Go away to school, party every summer, didn't work a part-time job?

Yup, surely none of it is through any fault of your own. I think you make a great example of what is wrong with your generation.

Well for starters I didn't have any help from family. Every dollar that went to my education had to be financed. I went to a public, in-state school. Cincinnati is also a 5-year program.

Took a part-time job during classes that made ~$100/week after taxes, did co-ops too. The switch from aerospace engineering to biomedical engineer set me back a year (anatomy). All in all, I spent about $20k per/year on rent/food/tuition/books. It's actually pretty reasonable, and not atypical of what most people are experiencing today. I won't sit here and claim I made all the best choices, but I wasn't irresponsible either.

Like I said before, if you can get someone else to pay for it then great, I'm sure you'll do well; but financing an education should no longer be looked at as an investment.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by fravel

I hear you, and I agree. My point is that no one tells that to potential college students until after they've graduated and fucked themselves into a life of debt. We need to stop telling kids that college is an investment, or that it is "good" debt. It's not.



This gets to the crux of my argument. I disagree that the trade school route is only ahead for a decade or so anymore. The dynamic has shifted to where the buying power of myself and my peers will be trailing behind skilled tradesmen for 20-30 years, not 10.

I would argue that pretty significantly. A Red Seal tradesperson on the tools has an earnings ceiling somewhere around $45/hr (and I am being deliberately generous with that figure). If you have an engineering degree, your earnings ceiling is more than double that. I am making an employee to employee comparison, ignoring entrepreneurship or consulting opportunities.

You sound like someone who expects things to be handed to him because he went to college. It is up to you to maximize the value of the investment you've made.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

I would argue that pretty significantly. A Red Seal tradesperson on the tools has an earnings ceiling somewhere around $45/hr (and I am being deliberately generous with that figure). If you have an engineering degree, your earnings ceiling is more than double that. I am making an employee to employee comparison, ignoring entrepreneurship or consulting opportunities.

This is the same flawed logic my father tries to give me, and fails to consider that (today's) engineer is paying 25%-40% of his salary right back to student loans for the first 20-30 years of his career. Base salary is an inadequate comparison.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

You sound like someone who expects things to be handed to him because he went to college. It is up to you to maximize the value of the investment you've made.

I simply expected my degree to be an asset. In reality it's just become a liability that I can't liquidate. Beyond that, I want the next kid in line to know that he has options besides taking on enormous debt to finance an education that will never yield the results he wants, so I'll continue to bring it up anytime the opportunity presents itself.

[E90Alex]

How was the school ranked for your program? What kind of companies showed up for on campus recruitment?

Originally Posted by fravel

This is the same flawed logic my father tries to give me, and fails to consider that (today's) engineer is paying 25%-40% of his salary right back to student loans for the first 20-30 years of his career. Base salary is an inadequate comparison.



I simply expected my degree to be an asset. In reality it's just become a liability that I can't liquidate. Beyond that, I want the next kid in line to know that he has options besides taking on enormous debt to finance an education that will never yield the results he wants, so I'll continue to bring it up anytime the opportunity presents itself.

[pikkagtr]

95133 north San Jose bay area
4br 2.5 bth 1855sqft 6100 sqft lot
1995@$425k
Currently sitting around $875k
Good thing my parents had gotten it when they did

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

95133 north San Jose bay area
4br 2.5 bth 1855sqft 6100 sqft lot
1995@$425k
Currently sitting around $875k
Good thing my parents had gotten it when they did

holy cow, your money goes far in the south bay. 95133 tho, which side of 680?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

95133 north San Jose bay area
4br 2.5 bth 1855sqft 6100 sqft lot
1995@$425k
Currently sitting around $875k
Good thing my parents had gotten it when they did

Damn. My garage is almost 1800sf....and a lot less expensive!

Since moving here in 2009, I often forget that my last house was only 1700sf. Which was plenty big for the three of us.