[larryn]

To be fair, MB is making a killing in minivan/van sales, which BMW is attempting to get into. None us us enthusiast give a care about that market, and we pan BMW for doing that. So, I say, who cares if MB sells more cars. If BMW can remain faithful and cater to the passionate driver, they will continue to succeed, regardless of comparison figures.

Of course, Freude am Fahren is not directly synonymous with higher growth margins, but neither is watering down a passion-driven brand.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

That solves it. People there want to use them to pose being on board with climate change and successful. That's going to change once the swamp is drained and climate change is off the agenda but oil production is first and foremost. Probably a lot in Cali and Chicago etc too vs R8. I've seen 3 R8s at once at a 4 way intersection here. Go back 10 years it was 3 hummer 2s.

Or it's just high income people who think an i8 looks cool.

I'll still see lots of Teslas and other electric cars after January 20th, 2017.

And the Hummer's may be gone, but they've been replaced by Range Rovers and Model X's.

I've always found the anti-climate change folks an interesting bunch. You even have US military and intelligence officials claiming it's a problem and that it poses a serious national security risk but clearly a bunch of people on the internet with no science background are better informed on the topic.

Why do you want to see H2's crowding the streets again anyway? They were pieces of shit, even back then.

[ASAP]

i see a ton of i8s in South Florida, albeit I don't think anyone including their owners is impressed by them.... probably a better option to have something like a tesla model 3 and a real sports car... unless you go all out with hybrid tech like a LaFerrari

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Or it's just high income people who think an i8 looks cool.

I'll still see lots of Teslas and other electric cars after January 20th, 2017.

And the Hummer's may be gone, but they've been replaced by Range Rovers and Model X's.

I've always found the anti-climate change folks an interesting bunch. You even have US military and intelligence officials claiming it's a problem and that it poses a serious national security risk but clearly a bunch of people on the internet with no science background are better informed on the topic.

Why do you want to see H2's crowding the streets again anyway? They were pieces of shit, even back then.

Don'teven go there. Half the country knows its a socialist hoax. The military was directed by the administration to get on board as were other agencies such as nasa. The data isn't there. The admission that it was based on falsified observstions, ommissions of contrarian information etc etc etc is widely known. If it was real according to Al Gore I'd be under water the past 5 years. Trump has appointed an epa head who is currently sueing the epa that its bull. He's also requested and been denied by obama the names of all pushing climate change in his administration and different government agencies. The truth will finally get out and the wealth distribution sham is over.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

The fact that it's around helps sell the brand 'prestige'. If gives the consumer something to work towards. That A3/A4 owner in their heads is thinking 'I'm going to own that R8 one day'.


Meanwhile, in BMW land...'I can't wait to own that BMW 330 iPerformance'.

I understand the premise but wonder how many A4 owners know about the R8 have that on their wish list, or care. I buy the 3 series today but would like to own an R8 one day, so what. Would be interesting to talk to a Marketing person with Audi and ask them how much A4 sales would drop if they dropped the R8. My guess is very little. BMW would increase numbers more by coming out with a FWD based 1 series sedan.

Non enthusiast is looking at a Q5 and an X5, Audi dealer points out they sell an R8 but BMW has no competing product? I would be interested in seeing most customers responses.

[Fundguy1]

But BMW has spent the money over and over for a Halo car. I don't see anyone admiring the i8 performance etc. Like i said earlier, put an M5 engine in it, build the CSL concept car, etc. Plenty of options.

[Shaw]

Originally Posted by vladberca

BMW will update their lineup in 2017 so there are big chances to regain the 1st place.
5 series is going to be a hit again. The new X3 might be done finally in the right way. 4 series and 2 series will receive their LCI.
X5 will have a new platform.
The only let down is that 6 GT. I don't really understand this niche market.

That's why the post suggests BMW trailing past 2017, because by the time the new models arrive and get sold, we are halfway through 2017, so no chance of breaking back...
The let down is that the 6 series is still keeping its old design all the way through 2018...which is a shot in the head for BMW...with the new C Coupe and R7 (A7), the 6er is a fossil; they should have came up with the G gen this year.
They also mistakenly focused on a losing X4 line which came out with the old interior design of X3 right from the get go...
they need to realize that the re-design of cars need to happen sooner than 7-year cycle now.

[Gamb1t]

Sales quantity seldom denotes company performance. Net profit does.

Mmm.... gull-wing.

[pukicabuki]

Originally Posted by larryn

To be fair, MB is making a killing in minivan/van sales, which BMW is attempting to get into. None us us enthusiast give a care about that market, and we pan BMW for doing that. So, I say, who cares if MB sells more cars. If BMW can remain faithful and cater to the passionate driver, they will continue to succeed, regardless of comparison figures.

Of course, Freude am Fahren is not directly synonymous with higher growth margins, but neither is watering down a passion-driven brand.

FYI....

MB Vans is a separate business unit from MB Cars, thus they are not counted towards the sales of MB Cars.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Shaw

That's why the post suggests BMW trailing past 2017, because by the time the new models arrive and get sold, we are halfway through 2017, so no chance of breaking back...
The let down is that the 6 series is still keeping its old design all the way through 2018...which is a shot in the head for BMW...with the new C Coupe and R7 (A7), the 6er is a fossil; they should have came up with the G gen this year.
They also mistakenly focused on a losing X4 line which came out with the old interior design of X3 right from the get go...
they need to realize that the re-design of cars need to happen sooner than 7-year cycle now.

Why do you think the X5 is being re-designed so fast lol.

People I think either over-estimate BMW or really under estimate BMW. At the end of the day, I don't worry about sales. I'm happy with what I have up until the point BMW does something moronic like VW had just done.

Things slowly change. Be patient. Have some faith.

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by 8k4

More power to them. BMW sucks, I series is a joke, m cars watered down, and standard line are bland / cheaper in terms of quality. Audi technology and interior design is insane, MB killer motors and cool designs

M cars watered down? Really? These are my Dyno results..........

M3 Stock at the crankshaft 475 HP
M3 Stock at the wheels - 405 HP
M3 Stock TQ: 451

All that with beautiful luxury, 28 MPH on the highway, and absolute fantastic looks...

HOW IS THAT WATERED DOWN?

[rainfall]

I think I know what they're thinking: "Oh, let's stretch the back seat legroom by one more inch, give 30 more horsepower in the next generation and we'll be good".

This has been their formula over the last years and they forgot the main purpose of why BMW was so successful: the driving pleasure.

Just as an example, they confused a lot of customers with the 3 series F30. The 3 series was once perceived as the entry level in many countries. But then it suddenly became more expensive, bigger and boring. Please forgive me whoever 3 series owners that might be reading this. You may disagree, but that's just my opinion.

I do hope they figure out a way to stay relevant. I love that they now have the 2 series. It checks all the boxes for many people.
I also hope they find their way with the 3 series. It's an amazing car - it just has to be marketed to the right people.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

M cars watered down? Really? These are my Dyno results..........

M3 Stock at the crankshaft 475 HP
M3 Stock at the wheels - 405 HP
M3 Stock TQ: 451

All that with beautiful luxury, 28 MPH on the highway, and absolute fantastic looks...

HOW IS THAT WATERED DOWN?

One can reply with this:

C63S Stock at the camshaft:503HP
C63S Stock at the rear wheels: 467 HP

C63S Stock TQ: 516

Mercedes has upped the ante on the BMW with their beautiful 4 liter twin turbo V8 that doesn't need fake speaker sounds to sound good...

I've been a fan of BMW since my childhood, but I have to admit that MB is on a roll and their AMG division currently is making more exciting cars than the M Division. Heck, they even win F1 championships, the pinnacle of auto racing, something BMW has not achieved since the 1980's...

[Mr Pete]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

One can reply with this:

C63S Stock at the camshaft:503HP
C63S Stock at the rear wheels: 467 HP

C63S Stock TQ: 516

Now place a F80 and a C63 side by side. Purely from an aesthetics stand point, F80 is the better looking sports sedan. Sometimes power isn't everything. I initially the F80 over the C63 due to the fuel economy, more than adequate power, and the better design (why the c63 does not have widened rear flares is beyond me). Now, a AMG GTs/R? I'll take that all day long over any of BMW's offerings, dare I say past or present.

[Shaw]

Originally Posted by tomyang

I'm not surprised. I own 3 bmw previously before this one. BMW sales are declining because of too many issues that these expensive car have and it's driving consumers away. Some examples are cracking radio buttons, high speed vibrations that could never be corrected, engine failures, battery issues, drivetrain malfunction, cheap plastic material, my ranting could go on and on. Also their service sucks also. If you have issues with your car you have to schedule and wait a week before they could get you in. My brother has an Audi and when he calls in for service or his car to be seen they get him in the same day with a loaner. Audi is my next car manufacture forget MB and BMW.

Audi's never peaked my interest...there's something about their designs that I can't put my finger on...but it lacks that 'wow factor'...quality? for sure, but we are always talking marginal between the 3 titans.
MB, well they carry their name and they have to do little to convince anyone to buy their new line-up. There's no joy in their designs and cars...all predictable and dull...I may drive one when I pass 65... Honestly, I find their new design horrendous and awful...especially the new models where they have introduced 5 ft display going from one side across to the other...and we are thinking it is a hit design??!! I'm surprised anyone thinking like that... old Lincoln's and Oldsmobile's were like that!!
BMW is losing the battle to itself, not to the rivals...if they pull their heads out of their rears, they still have time to become dominant with great cars...no one can argue that BMW is and has always been the "benchmark"...(we are better than/ or we need to surpass..." are all on BMW...
Think about it folks, MB has room to launch 5 crappy line ups and yet survive (thanks to their heavy duty line up and other assets), BMW makes one little goof and they are all over the news... I have always applauded them for having that charisma and character and to go against the stream and time and time again redefining the definition of the driving machine. Yes, others won't sit quietly. There are ups and downs...I think they will regain the crown back very soon...

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by AWGroceryGetter

Now place a F80 and a C63 side by side. Purely from an aesthetics stand point, F80 is the better looking sports sedan. Sometimes power isn't everything. I initially the F80 over the C63 due to the fuel economy, more than adequate power, and the better design (why the c63 does not have widened rear flares is beyond me). Now, a AMG GTs/R? I'll take that all day long over any of BMW's offerings, dare I say past or present.

It's all a question of taste I would say. Some like the sleeper look of the AMG, others prefer the more extrovert look of the M3-4... About the AMG GT R. I personally prefer the look of the i8, but I wish they'd make an M car out of it with a v8 biturbo and no batteries. It would have been a fantastic supercar, worthy successor of the M1...

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by AWGroceryGetter

Now place a F80 and a C63 side by side. Purely from an aesthetics stand point, F80 is the better looking sports sedan. Sometimes power isn't everything. I initially the F80 over the C63 due to the fuel economy, more than adequate power, and the better design (why the c63 does not have widened rear flares is beyond me). Now, a AMG GTs/R? I'll take that all day long over any of BMW's offerings, dare I say past or present.

I could care less about the aesthetics. I want the performance. If it looks like a brick but has 50 more its what I want. The only reason I went with BMW was i wanted a 6mt and mb only has autos.

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

One can reply with this:

C63S Stock at the camshaft:503HP
C63S Stock at the rear wheels: 467 HP

C63S Stock TQ: 516

Mercedes has upped the ante on the BMW with their beautiful 4 liter twin turbo V8 that doesn't need fake speaker sounds to sound good...

I've been a fan of BMW since my childhood, but I have to admit that MB is on a roll and their AMG division currently is making more exciting cars than the M Division. Heck, they even win F1 championships, the pinnacle of auto racing, something BMW has not achieved since the 1980's...

Thats fine but it doesn't answer the statement of watered down M cars........to defend that statement one should compare the E92 against the F80/82. Not the C63 against the F80/F82.......that is no contest........I would never buy that ugly POS!!!!

This argument is like saying your fat ugly GF gives better BJs than my super model shorty..........still not going for it.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

Thats fine but it doesn't answer the statement of watered down M cars........to defend that statement one should compare the E92 against the F80/82. Not the C63 against the F80/F82.......that is no contest........I would never buy that ugly POS!!!!

This argument is like saying your fat ugly GF gives better BJs than my super model shorty..........still not going for it.

When I saw your BJ's reference, I did not find the need to answer based on the level this conversation is at...

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

When I saw your BJ's reference, I did not find the need to answer based on the level this conversation is at...

I wasn't really talking about your GF! Thanks for not taking it personal as it wasn't meant to be.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by AIRPOWER

I wasn't really talking about your GF! Thanks for not taking it personal as it wasn't meant to be.

OK then, I'll respond ;-).

Watered down is subjective of course in view of the HP war happening now, by the way, with the Americans leading. Watered down is always compared to the competition. For example in what I consider the glory days of the M Division (not long ago), BMW was producing amazing cars such as the e46 M3 whose performance was pretty close to the 911, IMO the standard of sports cars. They were making amazing engines such as the V10 of the e60 M5 or even the V8 of the e92 (which is not heavier than the biturbo I6 of the F30)...

Now, the distance between the M3/4 and 911 has never been so great. They are using shortcuts in their engineering and can't seem to produce great engines anymore. For exemple, if they were smart like Ferrari, they could have done the 488GTB trick and combine the best of normally aspirated and turbocharged engines by lowering torque output in lower gears (and reduce lag) and allowing the engine to rev at higher RPM's (to give more power and excitement). They have gone the electric power steering way for negligible gas mileage savings (just think about it, the M Division considering gas mileage!!!!) but without providing proper feel (like Porsche, or even the Toyota GT86 have managed to do). And the M3/M4 have not been setup properly until the arrival of the Competition Package... For me, the M Division has now become a marketing tool (look at these M Performance models) and does not mean Motorsport anymore, it does not mean innovation anymore...

That's what I mean by watered down.

[PoorLurker]

Originally Posted by Nkc

A the fuck men.

I can already see the long term effects of chasing short term monetary goals. A once enthusiastic brand becoming a bland washed out market follower. Doesn't it just suck when Benz is the more emotional brand over the years? Or the fact that even Audi has a better performing car. Maybe we'll see VW packing more luxury than BMW soon.

I'm such a broken record but I'll continue my bitching hoping that someone at bmw will listen or until I just completely give up on the brand and move on. I really don't want to move on.

Porsche is next.

Panamera then the cayenne and now the macan.

They even now have a base model Macan starting in the high $40s! Maybe SUVs and Sedans are the downfall to enthusiast cars.

Is this why there aren't 4 door Ferraris? (Minus the one offs)