[3GFX]

I read that article (which is nothing truly we didn't already know) and I think...

...the day will come soon where the option box for a manual will not be there, or will cost more.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by 3GFX

I read that article (which is nothing truly we didn't already know) and I think...

...the day will come soon where the option box for a manual will not be there, or will cost more.

There have been recent rumors that Ferrari would offer a manual on certain cars for a significant premium, likely the cost of a 5 series or more.

[RM7]

And the sporty cars that traditionally benefited from the weight reduction (because they were so light already) like Miatas, Triumphs, S2000s, 914s, and so on, are rarities these days. So few people track cars and buy these for those purposes.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 3798j

.although that "boredom" area of the schematic still exists.

Well an automatic transmission(slushbox) always has a lower efficiency compared to a similar manual gearbox: the torque converter still has loss until lock up, there's an oil pump dissipating heat, there's more rotational mass, power goes through more gears etc etc.
How can modern automatic transmissions rival or surpass fuel efficiency or acceleration compared to manuals? they can do that because they have 1 or 2 (or even 3) extra gears.
BTW that extra acceleration is usually measured in the 0-60; how it performs in the 60-120 is often not said

This all goes less for the DCT though. (That also has an hydraulic pump but thats electric and pretty efficient). Its more akin to the manual.

[lens]

IMO you have two types of enthusiasts.

One that loves driving and doesn't care if he's slower.

And one that loves driving, and needs to be faster and to win.

There's no quarrel if you can accept people love driving manual/autos.

But once you start imposing your "my auto is faster" or "manual has more car feel" that's where the war starts.

Some people don't like three pedals, and some people can't live without it.

I enjoy driving mine (8AT) and the auto, at least for me, doesn't take away from the fun. Especially as I have turbo/intake/engine sounds from the front and a loud exhaust from the rear. Had my friend with an STI (hardcore manu enthusiast) drive my car, and didn't complain about the transmission because he was too busy having fun with the exhaust, turbo and the speed.

[GuidoK]

within 10 years people will make the same argument about steering wheels.
I think its all about control (for me at least). Wanting to control and operate a machine within my capabilities and improve on that.
^and you say it quite correctly: "my auto is faster", in the sense you have a machine that does it faster for you.
For me its more like I want to improve. I want to get better. When a machine takes that out of your hands, it means that some engineer way back in Munich (Friedrichshaven in this case ) is faster.
The same goes for launch control. It has nothing to do with the driver (you or me as an individual) but all about some engineer sitting in some office at the other side of the world punching in the correct numbers.
So I think people who are very manual focussed are more interested in themselves as a driver (the technical aspect, not the traffic aspect).
That engineers can come up with technical inventions that go beyond the skill of a human is not that strange. I'm sure that if you make an automated car with automated steering, in the end a team with engineers will be going way faster around a circuit lap than any human driver can. But is that the point? Is that fun?

For me the (manual) shifing is just as much part of driving like steering or braking or controlling the throttle.
Learning and applying the tricks of optimal control and timing within the shift&throttle process, just as much as trying to find the optimal driving line when it comes to steering.

[tock172]

Having owned both a 6MT N55 135i and a DCT N55 135i, I hands down prefer the dual clutch. The entire driving experience is more fluid, precision and enjoyable. Don't get me wrong, I love driving with manual transmission and I plan to pick up another older stick-shift BMW in the future. But in most modern drive-by-wire vehicles, a manual transmission feels like a clunky afterthought that shouldn't be there. On something with a real cable between the gas pedal and throttle body, a manual transmission feels right at home and I wouldn't want anything else. My manual E36 M3 was one of the funnest cars I've ever owned and the transmission played a huge role in that. It was just so slick and smooth, and you could sync up the revs exactly how you wanted, every single time.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

i prefer CVT, i hear they destroy autos and DCTs, espec when merging on the highway

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I just done know what to say to this.

Your user name says it all.

. You are correct sir.

[eluded]

Originally Posted by R3dliner

#savethemanuals

#SaveTheManuals

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Always a third pedal fan (and always will be), but then, I'm from the era when automatic transmissions performed like this....although that "boredom" area of the schematic still exists.

+1

I've driven plenty of double-clutch transmissions including Audi, Porsche and Nissan (GT-R) and they're "novel" for a little while, but then the novelty wears off and I'm bored again. There's just not replacement for driver involvement with three pedals.

Porsche has seen the light. Not every cares about "the ultimate lap time." Hence the 911R was born, sold out quickly and now is worth a small fortune.

#savethemanuals

[3GFX]

I don't know if it was Jeremy Clarkson or a combination of different journalists I've compiled in my head teamed with my own feelings but in essence this sums it up for me:

IMHO there is no argument that on the daily commute an automatic works the best for simplicity and the ease of driving relaxation. On track, automated manuals or sport oriented automatics have for years had the advantage in shaving time which is the end goal of racing.

But for a B-Road or simple enjoyment of the drive; rowing your own gears and using the clutch to manipulate the connection of you, to the motor to the car creates an emotional connection beyond what is truly "efficient".


...other opinions.

I like CVT in my ATV no where else do I wanna hear my motor struggle that often or maintain an expensive belt system.

The most efficient transmission for a daily commute car is what Rolls Royce is using. An automatic that predicts gears based on real time measurements with the car and actual GPS data predicting to the best of its ability to what lies ahead for ride and fuel efficiency.

[GuidoK]

I dont understand why people think shifting would be 'a hassle'
I do daily driving like every other person but I never thougth 'oh no.... not shifing... again....!.
I see it like braking or steering. That doesnt seem like a hassle to me either, so I dont see why an automatic is better. It doesnt come unrelaxing to me etc. Its only done when accelerating or braking.
Do people who think automatics are better for daily driving also think with each corner: oh no, now I have to turn the steering wheel! ?

I also dont think an automatic is better for daily driving. Only just now automatics start to somewhat read the road ahead based on GPS info, which is something every learing driver already knows how to do. Let alone that an automatic gearbox can anticipate on traffic in front or trafficlights. As long as automatics dont have real eyes, they're not as competent as a human driver in predicting gears/predictive driving. I guess thats one of the reasons why automatic gear selection is never used in racing.

[Sedan_Clan]

With regards to fully automated cars.....




....I wouldn't worry about it too much. Most people are resistant to change, and a bustling economy full of automated cars everywhere won't happen in my lifetime (...and that likely applies to everybody posting in this thread as well). They will make up a very small percentage of cars on the road; probably less than hybrids. Hell, most cars on the road still don't even have HID's.


P.S. People [without medical/physical limitations] who complain about a manual in traffic sound like complete weenies, especially the young twenty/thirty-somethings. Build stronger legs and put away the skinny jeans. Just sayin'!

[Firaxis]

There's tell tail signs all over the place it's getting worse, I recently enquired about an M140i and out of the 40 in stock from the dealer franchise none of them were manual.

I get why people want auto's for the daily commute. They can be more economical / they're easier to drive in traffic and roads in Europe are getting busier (along with heavy traffic control implementations).

But on enjoyment / performance cars? It's a little concerning, if fastest lap times are most important than sure. For enthusiasts trying to bring a bit of spice to life then it has to be MT right?

[lens]

Originally Posted by Firaxis

There's tell tail signs all over the place it's getting worse, I recently enquired about an M140i and out of the 40 in stock from the dealer franchise none of them were manual.

I get why people want auto's for the daily commute. They can be more economical / they're easier to drive in traffic and roads in Europe are getting busier (along with heavy traffic control implementations).

But on enjoyment / performance cars? It's a little concerning, if fastest lap times are most important than sure. For enthusiasts trying to bring a bit of spice to life then it has to be MT right?

Well manual is cool if you drive backroad or spirited and stuff.

Not many people track their F30s so they don't really do auto.

I track mine and love the ZF8, the ridiculous amount of downshifts before a corner and the bangs and pops that go along with it, then accelerating out of one and hearing the bangs after every upshift is sastifying.

[Nkc]

.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

within 10 years people will make the same argument about steering wheels.
I think its all about control (for me at least). Wanting to control and operate a machine within my capabilities and improve on that.
^and you say it quite correctly: "my auto is faster", in the sense you have a machine that does it faster for you.
For me its more like I want to improve. I want to get better. When a machine takes that out of your hands, it means that some engineer way back in Munich (Friedrichshaven in this case ) is faster.
The same goes for launch control. It has nothing to do with the driver (you or me as an individual) but all about some engineer sitting in some office at the other side of the world punching in the correct numbers.
So I think people who are very manual focussed are more interested in themselves as a driver (the technical aspect, not the traffic aspect).
That engineers can come up with technical inventions that go beyond the skill of a human is not that strange. I'm sure that if you make an automated car with automated steering, in the end a team with engineers will be going way faster around a circuit lap than any human driver can. But is that the point? Is that fun?

For me the (manual) shifing is just as much part of driving like steering or braking or controlling the throttle.
Learning and applying the tricks of optimal control and timing within the shift&throttle process, just as much as trying to find the optimal driving line when it comes to steering.

Well said.

[3GFX]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

within 10 years people will make the same argument about steering wheels.

You mean the argument around electric vs. hydraulic vs. drive by wire?

[eluded]

Can't wait for autonomous vehicles

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 3GFX

You mean the argument around electric vs. hydraulic vs. drive by wire?

No I mean autonomous driving vs. self driving.

The more you give controls to a computer, the more you become a passenger in your own car.

[baege]

I test drove the pdk version of my 981CS and there is no comparison in terms of driver involvement, engagement and enjoyment.

looking for a replacement for my 981Cs and wanting manual anf normal aspiration in a new car is a tough go