[cliverman]

Originally Posted by Maynard

So does this mean that taking my car out to a BMWCCA driving day would void my warranty?

That's a good question. I wondered the same thing.

[cliverman]

Originally Posted by Axius

Is the vehicle being driven on a race track?

Is the event sanctioned by BMW? I don't think BMW would support these events or even encourage them if it was an issue.

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

Quote from BMW Canada official pdf:

"Vehicles Used for Racing, Vehicles Driven on Race Tracks and other Competitive Events

Warranty coverage is suspended and claims will not be honoured by the Vendor.

Component failure directly or indirectly attributable to racing, race track use or other competitive events (direct or implied) in any form is not covered by the terms of the New Car Limited Warranty."

If Audi warranty is anything similar to this no wonder they suspended the coverage. Using German cars on track is a financial nightmare waiting to happen.

So here's the interesting part: those parts of the contract would be bullshit, at least in the USA. Canada, no idea, but if their law says different (reads more favorably to the consumer) it will supersede the contract unless Canada has really strange and extreme contract law.

Their contract can say whatever it wants about the warranty but in the USA they would still have to PROVE what caused the failure. Companies have unreasonable / invalid warranty clauses all the time because it's nearly always more of a hassle to challenge it in court than be told you're SOL and move on.

[David70]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I don't know about Canada, but I don't think small claims is the right avenue. Audi will have lawyers that have represented them in many similar claims. Oliver will have an uphill battle against them, particularly if he tracked the car and Audi warranty language says the warranty will be suspended if the car is tracked per post 25 above.

Agree. You in small claims court against an Audi lawyer that is fully prepared with data saying whatever, and has a lot of experience with this type of issue and your chances are minimal. He brings a letter from an Engineer that says aftermarket suspensions add stress to the transmission or whatever and your response would be "I don't think that much?".

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

So here's the interesting part: those parts of the contract would be bullshit, at least in the USA. Canada, no idea, but if their law says different (reads more favorably to the consumer) it will supersede the contract unless Canada has really strange and extreme contract law.

Their contract can say whatever it wants about the warranty but in the USA they would still have to PROVE what caused the failure. Companies have unreasonable / invalid warranty clauses all the time because it's nearly always more of a hassle to challenge it in court than be told you're SOL and move on.

They are welcome to say that you can't take your car off road, track days, whatever past normal use.

From 2004 -

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...makers-are-not

"Problems related to racing or modifications are not covered under warranty," says Mitsubishi spokeswoman Janis Little. "Autocrossing, or timed competition, is classified under the warranty terms as racing. It’s difficult for us to know if you’re out there racing, but if there is evidence of racing damage, we’re going to look into it and you may have warranty restrictions placed on certain parts of the vehicle."

Most owners recognize that part of the cost of going racing means footing the repair bill when something goes awry. Manufacturer warranties and owner manuals typically specify that harsh use, abuse, non-factory modifications and racing can void all or part of a vehicle’s warranty intended to cover defects in materials or workmanship. Miller’s case, however, raises questions about how the company discovered his autocross involvement.

even though Subaru pops for a one-year SCCA membership for every interested WRX buyer, and in its marketing materials appears to encourage owners to enter their cars in autocross events, the company says autocrossing is racing and racing can void warranty coverage. The WRX/SCCA application form says the SCCA"looks forward to helping you fully experience the benefits of owning this car."But the form also includes a disclaimer that Subaru’s warranty excludes "damage or failure resulting from participation in competition or racing events."

You’ll hear the same story at DaimlerChrysler Street and Racing Technology, where they make the Dodge SRT-4, the Viper-powered Ram SRT-10 and the supercharged Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6. "Technically, racing damage is not covered under warranty,"says SRT spokesman Dan Bodene. "If a guy autocrosses, submits a problem for warranty and the dealer suspects it is racing related, he’s going to huddle with our technicians to find out. If it is, our dealers are not obligated to cover it under warranty."

Internal investigations aren’t limited to autocrossing, but cover any activity deemed outside normal use, such as track days and plain old aggressive driving.

"If a guy’s constantly lighting up the tires on the street, that’s not normal wear and tear," says Chrysler’s Bodene.

[Axius]

Originally Posted by cliverman

Is the event sanctioned by BMW? I don't think BMW would support these events or even encourage them if it was an issue.

I don't feel this would make a difference to be honest.

You as the owner, are willfully driving your car on a closed course (regardless of whom sanctions it), and understanding that you are putting not only yourself, but your car at risk.

Sure, certain cars are "designed" to hit the track and race around, but the grand scheme of things is they are mainly designed to get from point A and B when driven in a reliable manner. You expose the car to more potential failure modes by going balls to the wall, and I can see why a company shouldn't feel it's their issue to incur costs associated with something like this.

[David70]

Another article related to track days and vehicle warranties -

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/02/27/n...id-race-track/

Looks like modifying it makes your problems likely to be greater -

And Acura's warranty, as well as Honda's, clearly states that it does not cover "the use of the vehicle in competition or racing events."

So we asked Sage Marie, Senior Manager of Public Relations for Honda and Acura. "If the car is stock, the warranty covers it on a track just as it does on the street. No question," he told us. "However, if the car is modified, say with slick tires or other components that would put higher stresses on the vehicle's parts and systems, then we would have to investigate the circumstances further." Marie went on to say the same would be true for any Acura model or Honda vehicle, including the new 2017 Honda Civic Si.

Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser lit up the internet back in April when he told Kirk Bell at Motor Authority that the warranty on the new sixth-generation 2017 Chevy Camaro covers the car on the race track. However, there are restrictions. The car must not be modified and it must be an SS model or above.

Across town at FCA, things are different. FCA's warranty for all models – meaning the new Alfas, Challengers and Chargers, including those of the Hellcat variety and other SRT models – states in oversized bold text: "Racing Not Covered."

Nissan's GT-R warranty includes: "Racing and/or competitive driving of any sort whatsoever, and/or use on a track or driving on any airstrip." Then it also mentions "Operating the vehicle with the Vehicle Dynamic Control (VDC) off, except when rocking the vehicle when stuck in mud or snow. Such operation is also 'misuse.'"

Porsche's warranty does not make the same distinction. Under a heading of "This Warranty Does Not Cover," Porsche's warranty states: "Abuse, accident, acts of God, competition, racing, track use, or other events. Note 1: Components and or parts that fail during racing or driving events (including Porsche sponsored events) may not be covered by the new car Limited Warranty."

[ShopVac]

Originally Posted by Axius

Moral of the story: Don't buy a piece of shit Audi.

Wow...well that escalated quickly.

I can say my Audi has seen the flatbed of the tow truck less times than my BMW.

[lens]

Originally Posted by ShopVac

Wow...well that escalated quickly.

I can say my Audi has seen the flatbed of the tow truck less times than my BMW.

Probably because it's always at the shop being fixed

[Maynard]

These articles are, sadly, just what I'd feared from this. 'Sanctioned' or not, it does raise potential for denials, especially with those rare-but-expensive issues that are the main point of the warranty. I guess the guys who regularly cover their plates for track days aren't so paranoid....Not that you could not defend yourself w/facts, but the legal fees to do it would be prohibitive.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Maynard

These articles are, sadly, just what I'd feared from this. 'Sanctioned' or not, it does raise potential for denials, especially with those rare-but-expensive issues that are the main point of the warranty. I guess the guys who regularly cover their plates for track days aren't so paranoid....Not that you could not defend yourself w/facts, but the legal fees to do it would be prohibitive.

Agree but for the track days I have done I was more worried about an accident than a component failure. Any accident has you either paying for it yourself, previously purchased track insurance (not cheap) or insurance fraud as you try to collect (just like the car company they excluded track days).

Of my two cars, 2013 Cadillac ATS and 2006 BMW Z4M I plan on doing a track day and will probably take the ATS, mainly because it is now worth a lot less and far cheaper to fix (V-6 Chevy engine with a pretty standard 6 speed automatic).

Large group of people that regularly do track days that buy older Corvette's, Miata's, Mustangs, and Camaro's over RS5's because of the overall risk of an expensive repair (even people that have the money don't want to lose it). You won't end up with an $20k transmission repair on any of the above.

[ShopVac]

Originally Posted by chaungo

Probably because it's always at the shop being fixed

That was the case with my Mazdaspeed 6...which lead to me getting the BMW. Audi's last day at the dealership was the day I bought it.

[Kolyan2k]

I read Audi is pretty bad with the warranty stuff, thats one of the reasons I went with BMW. They flag you automatically if engine is tuned etc.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by David70

Agree. You in small claims court against an Audi lawyer that is fully prepared with data saying whatever, and has a lot of experience with this type of issue and your chances are minimal. He brings a letter from an Engineer that says aftermarket suspensions add stress to the transmission or whatever and your response would be "I don't think that much?".

Audi lawyer fully prepared? who said that.....I sued CItibank and won even without any lawyers

[vandridine]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

I read Audi is pretty bad with the warranty stuff, thats one of the reasons I went with BMW. They flag you automatically if engine is tuned etc.

I thought BMW does that as well?

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by vandridine

I thought BMW does that as well?

I haven't heard

[ORIGIN M.]

I am sure Audi knows exactly where that car has been within two inches of itself.

Knowledge is everything.

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

I read Audi is pretty bad with the warranty stuff, thats one of the reasons I went with BMW. They flag you automatically if engine is tuned etc.

make no mistake, bmw does the same.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

make no mistake, bmw does the same.

Any proof? Audi has a flag known as TD1. Even if you go for oil change, you will still get TD1 if ECU is not stock

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by ShopVac

Moral of the story: Don't take the car back to the dealership for warranty work before getting everything back to stock.

Moral of the story, Part 2: Be best friends with the SA, bribe liberally with coffee and donuts for him/her, and the staff. No warranty problems, ever.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by David70

Agree. You in small claims court against an Audi lawyer that is fully prepared with data saying whatever, and has a lot of experience with this type of issue and your chances are minimal. He brings a letter from an Engineer that says aftermarket suspensions add stress to the transmission or whatever and your response would be "I don't think that much?".



They are welcome to say that you can't take your car off road, track days, whatever past normal use.

From 2004 -

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...makers-are-not

This is a great post and the information mirrors a conversation I have with a friend who owns a several extremely high end cars and recently lost one in a track incident. He stated that car companies are extremely disingenuous with regard to their advertisements, consumer relations events, and targeted communication for exceptional customers: Track day events, commercials staged at racing facilities, professional drivers extolling the virtues of a "X Car" which is only a thin sliver removed from a racing car. The reality is quite different.

I started doing a bit of digging and found this:

It not only states the exceptional performance capabilities of the vehicle but that it is actually illegal to use on tracks because it's so fast. Really? Where do you think the average owner is going as their first stop? The drag strip. Problem occurs, warranty voided.

I'd be interested to see an attorney use a compilation of automotive ads extolling Manufacturer Z's pride and joy, X Car - Superleggeraespeciale S-D, Turbo after they refuse a warranty repair while the aforementioned ads feature the Superleggeraespeciale in its natural environment: any FIA Grade I track in the world.

Cheers-mk

[aozer]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Any proof? Audi has a flag known as TD1. Even if you go for oil change, you will still get TD1 if ECU is not stock

Search the forums. People have been flagged for jb4 even when it was removed before going in for service.

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by ShopVac

Wow...well that escalated quickly.

I can say my Audi has seen the flatbed of the tow truck less times than my BMW.

I can say My BMW hasnt seen the flatbed of a tow truck.