[city1991]

My brother and I have been driving BMW's for over 20 years. He only buys sedans, I've had coupes, convertible's, sedans, SUV's, etc. Doesn't matter to me. But some people drive what they like, as he does with the sedans.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by ted99

We car buffs could be an endangered species in 20 years.

We are already an endangered species. I seriously only know a few people who are real enthusiasts now. And even they have non-enthusiast cars now.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by ted99

No, I was serious. And the current C-19 economic effects may accelerate this. Gen Z is going to be hammered for many years to come. Research says that low starting salaries propagate for many years afterwards. My two cars are sitting, but costing me money. it's a cost that Gen Z may be unwilling (or unable) to pay. Ride sharing when you need it is a lot cheaper than car ownership, particularly when you don't have a job to commute to or are teleworking. Were there people that treasured their horse-drawn Phaetons after the Model T proliferated? We car buffs could be an endangered species in 20 years.

I hope that we will survive.
What baffles me is that people have no idea that the new EV is not the evolution they are fooled to believe. Control and lack of freedom are knocking on the door and people follow without question. The mass media is the shepherd...
The new clean diesel is the most efficient vehicle in terms of everything including the manufacturing process.
Any ICE vehicle GIVES YOU FREEDOM to move anywhere even where there is no grid, road or a plug!

[werdn]

Originally Posted by ted99

"Recent' history (last 30 years) has had a "not my mother's car" effect. Station wagons were rejected. Mini-vans were rejected. Will Gen Z reject SUV's? I think they are already doing this. What will be their go-to vehicle? No vehicle?

Yeah I think we will. I talked to my friends about a possibility of a X5M for a daily, and they were like 'dont get an SUV, that's a mom car'. That is even after I insisted that it would be a fun car.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by werdn

Yeah I think we will. I talked to my friends about a possibility of a X5M for a daily, and they were like 'dont get an SUV, that's a mom car'. That is even after I insisted that it would be a fun car.

Buy whatever fits your budget and lifestyle. Live your life as you want not as others or society dictates.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by werdn

Yeah I think we will. I talked to my friends about a possibility of a X5M for a daily, and they were like 'dont get an SUV, that's a mom car'. That is even after I insisted that it would be a fun car.

And they don't love their mothers? Maybe you need new friends. Buy what you like and want.

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by werdn

Yeah I think we will. I talked to my friends about a possibility of a X5M for a daily, and they were like 'dont get an SUV, that's a mom car'. That is even after I insisted that it would be a fun car.

Listen to them man, they are looking out for you!

[ted99]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

I hope that we will survive.
What baffles me is that people have no idea that the new EV is not the evolution they are fooled to believe. Control and lack of freedom are knocking on the door and people follow without question. The mass media is the shepherd...
The new clean diesel is the most efficient vehicle in terms of everything including the manufacturing process.
Any ICE vehicle GIVES YOU FREEDOM to move anywhere even where there is no grid, road or a plug!

Perhaps. I recently bought a second 530e to go with my first 2020 530e. My car is urban use only because we live downtown and I have yet to run the ICE in 4 months. To all intents and purposes, it's an EV with an ICE for out of town runs. My wife commutes 3-4 days a week (pre-C 19) and occasionally had to run her ICE for about 4 miles on an interstate. She is still on her first tank of fuel. In addition, I have the elegance and road handling of the 5 sedan at all times, including Interstate trips. I have no idea how my total energy cost would compare to a diesel 5 sedan, if one could even get one in the USA. I do know that my extra electricity cost for the two sedans was running at $35/mos (billed by my condo) and fuel cost is "zero", so far.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Loll that's simply corporate speak for "our cars are now designed for the Chinese first."

I guess the question is, so what? Playing the China Card and portraying them as the antagonist seems to be standard operating procedure these days. Automotive design have always catered to American tastes and this hasn't changed. China is becoming relevant and people seemingly are threatened by them, making hyperbolic statements.

Automakers have always made design/model variations to cater to specific markets. Some models (or model variation) are designed and available in Europe are not available in the US or vice versa. Same with cars designed/available only for/in Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. They've extended this to China because they're now relevant.

So generally, no, they are not styling "solely for 25% of their market," rather they are also considering the Chinese market (in addition to other relevant markets) in design & development decisions. You don't need an MBA to figure out this is good for business.

As for large grilles, here's a 2005 NY Times article talking about this trend. So not only is this "trend" not new bud I'd contend that something that has been happening for that long is no longer a trend but an established (even traditional) design. BMW, for better or worse, is simply catching up.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I guess the question is, so what? Playing the China Card and portraying them as the antagonist seems to be standard operating procedure these days. Automotive design have always catered to American tastes and this hasn't changed. China is becoming relevant and people seemingly are threatened by them, making hyperbolic statements.

Automakers have always made design/model variations to cater to specific markets. Some models (or model variation) are designed and available in Europe are not available in the US or vice versa. Same with cars designed/available only for/in Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. They've extended this to China because they're now relevant.

So generally, no, they are not styling "solely for 25% of their market," rather they are also considering the Chinese market (in addition to other relevant markets) in design & development decisions. You don't need an MBA to figure out this is good for business.

As for large grilles, here's a 2005 NY Times article talking about this trend. So not only is this "trend" not new bud I'd contend that something that has been happening for that long is no longer a trend but an established (even traditional) design. BMW, for better or worse, is simply catching up.

Nobody here has ever questioned the business sense behind catering to Chinese tastes, the SAV craze, bland electric steering, turbo 4 engines, M brand dilution, and overall watering down of BMW driving dynamics. These are all very sound business decisions which have paid dividends to Munich.

But that doesn't mean the enthusiast in me should be pleased with all this. I'm not paid by BMW to defend them, as a matter of fact I pay them if I choose to purchase their products or not. We are all car enthusiasts because we look at cars as an emotional purchase rather than an objective, "business" type of decision. So no I'm not going to excuse BMW for being the ultimate sell-out machine.

[Earlando86]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

I'm glad.
I have more pleasure with driving my 4 years old m235 than my wife's brand new x7.
Looking forward to the new m4/m3

Same here with my F90 M5 vs our X7. The X7 is nice but I rarely drive it. I always choose the M5. 😁

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by ted99

No, I was serious. And the current C-19 economic effects may accelerate this. Gen Z is going to be hammered for many years to come. Research says that low starting salaries propagate for many years afterwards. My two cars are sitting, but costing me money. it's a cost that Gen Z may be unwilling (or unable) to pay. Ride sharing when you need it is a lot cheaper than car ownership, particularly when you don't have a job to commute to or are teleworking. Were there people that treasured their horse-drawn Phaetons after the Model T proliferated? We car buffs could be an endangered species in 20 years.

There is a big lesson that society is learning relating to ride sharing (and mass transit). That is there are clear health benefits to NOT sharing spaces/vehicles with who knows whom. I sure as hell know nobody that just landed from an international flight at JFK has been in my car, but I have no idea if that's the case in my shared riding experience. There is a lot to be said for owning your own vehicle.💡

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Nobody here has ever questioned the business sense behind catering to Chinese tastes, the SAV craze, bland electric steering, turbo 4 engines, M brand dilution, and overall watering down of BMW driving dynamics. These are all very sound business decisions which have paid dividends to Munich.

But that doesn't mean the enthusiast in me should be pleased with all this. I'm not paid by BMW to defend them, as a matter of fact I pay them if I choose to purchase their products or not. We are all car enthusiasts because we look at cars as an emotional purchase rather than an objective, "business" type of decision. So no I'm not going to excuse BMW for being the ultimate sell-out machine.

No one here is telling anyone to be happy with BMW's recent design direction.

I'm with the majority expressing concerns about recent BMW designs and this is a legitimate discusson. The issue I'm addressing is with hyperbole statements such as "our cars are now designed for the Chinese first" (they are not) or "style solely for 25% of their market" (they are not).

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by SINasTER

SUVs are king in the US, but here in Canada, we like our wagons! Canadians buy SUV because we don't have any good wagons available!

Audi just began offering the RS6 Avant (wagon) and I think they will be grabbing a lot of sales that BMW could have had IF they offered a good wagon. And by good, I don't mean a cheap and slow 4 cylinder, but an " M " inspired (either twin turbo I6 or twin turbo V8).

I wish I lived in Canada right now, you guys have not one but two wagons that I would love to replace my CLS with. The C43 and E53 wagon! Annoyingly we get the E-Wagon but only in regular 450 (now about to be raised and cladded) and full on AMG, but not the 43/53 series which I find to be the sweet spot.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I wish I lived in Canada right now, you guys have not one but two wagons that I would love to replace my CLS with. The C43 and E53 wagon! Annoyingly we get the E-Wagon but only in regular 450 (now about to be raised and cladded) and full on AMG, but not the 43/53 series which I find to be the sweet spot.

Why don’t you buy it from Canada?

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Why don’t you buy it from Canada?

I honestly have no idea how that process would work, not to mention it would likely cost more than I would prefer. Its not like these are collector cars or must haves for me.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by SINasTER

I like the RS6 avant much more than the mercs though

Yes, but I was speaking of the middle trim variants that are under $100k, RS6 and E63S are a lot more expensive, the 53 would compete with an S6 wagon, which is another car we don't get. I don't need the full on power of either of the RS and full AMG, I just want an e-wagon equivalent of my Cls but we don't get it sadly. RS6 is better looking but I don't think it will drive or sound better than the E63 though.

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by SINasTER

SUVs are king in the US, but here in Canada, we like our wagons! Canadians buy SUV because we don't have any good wagons available!

Audi just began offering the RS6 Avant (wagon) and I think they will be grabbing a lot of sales that BMW could have had IF they offered a good wagon. And by good, I don't mean a cheap and slow 4 cylinder, but an " M " inspired (either twin turbo I6 or twin turbo V8).

Amen

[adc100]

Sounds like corporate bullshit to me. Such a statement won't deter the increasing number of folks that want a BMW bimbo box. And it reinforces to the BMW performance folks that this is "where BMW always intends to be :roleyes:

Get real..follow the $$$$$$$$ tat's where they will go. To do otherwise would be ignorant. I own Subarus. Could they make a performance vehicle as good as BMW?? Of course... good engineers can copy anything. But that would be their quick demise.

[freakystyly]

The fact they had to write this article is worrying. They already took away NA engines, hydraulic steering, almost all manual transmissions, almost all RWD.

Nothing setting this brand apart from others anymore.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

The fact they had to write this article is worrying. They already took away NA engines, hydraulic steering, almost all manual transmissions, almost all RWD.

Nothing setting this brand apart from others anymore.

When I drive a BMW now I don't feel any difference compared to a modern Merc or Audi. All these cars basically drive the same. I drove my buddy's C43 for a while the other day and even it's steering had more resistance on turn in than the new M340s I've driven. However both cars are heavy boats that do not enjoy being thrown into corners or darting between lanes.

They are all so desperate to be #1 in sales they've all created the same car just with different designs and different tech user interface.

[JulesX3]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Good read thanks OP.

I've had several CS over the years and feel I'm finally over them. They are fantastic for growing families.

I'm now heading back the other and only looking at coupes and sedans.

The X models have really been a runaway success for BMW. I wonder how much/any of that was partly from the Land Rover purchase. They definitely seemed to own the sporty SAV/SUV segment for some time before competition caught up.

I'm surprised that the 2 series Gran Coupe model was deemed necessary really.

In my selfish mind I'd like to see:-

1 series hatch (currently own M135i)
2 series RWD coupe
3 series sedan
4 series coupe
5 series sedan
8 series coupe + Gran coupe
Mnext Halo

X1/3/5/7

Don't see much news for the coupe style SUVs (however obviously I'd be poor at business these sell well and my wife has an X2!!!).

I'd also personally drop the 7, doesn't ever seem a big seller or ever close to toppling the S class in luxury. Maybe an uber luxurious 5 model in L guise could fill this.

As for mini brand, it's a worry, sales look to have been dreadful in NA last periods. Is it just too small and seems to offer poor value in some markets. Seems popular as ever in the IK but that might not be enough. Decision on full EV next platform or not seems to be holding the revised model back.

Well thanks for reading. As ever, it's a good job I'm not on the board of BMW AG I'd be specialising in getting Leipzig to offer individual colour for my Fire Orange M2C.

Agreed with the X series.

I avoided SAV/SUV's for the longest. My first car was a Pathfinder almost 20 years ago.

But the X series made SAV/SUV's elegant, sexy, and sporty all in one