[F87source]

Originally Posted by NYG

Perez out qualified Max because he drove a really ideal lap and Max's setup had a lot more understeer. He even uses his brakes for turn in on 9 while Checo just lifts.

Not by m powers logic.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by F87source

Not by m powers logic.

The sarcasm went right over my head. My bad.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by NYG

The sarcasm went right over my head. My bad.

In all honesty Perez did a good job. The rb18 is alot more stable than the rb16 and rb16b were.

Let's see if he can put the pressure on max.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by F87source

In all honesty Perez did a good job. The rb18 is alot more stable than the rb16 and rb16b were.

Let's see if he can put the pressure on max.

I think Horner was saying how this car is more suited for Checo than the previous gen which was "quirkier."

[E92inNC]

Originally Posted by NYG

24 years old.

Will it be 16 after Australia?

Malaysia is surprising. I thought it came off the calendar even before Max got into F1. My last memory of that track was sometime when Alonso was with Ferrari. I must be getting old

[F87source]

But imo when Mercedes fixes porpoising alot more than 1 second of lap time will come from it.

Why?

1) Because Mercedes will have a real fix implemented not a bandage but an actual solution to stop the air flow from stalling. What do I mean by this? Well currently redbull and Ferrari still porpoise but they're able to dial it out with setup changes and the cuts in the floor. These cuts in the floor allow air flow to move from the underfloor stopping the floor from stalling. This is a band aid for porpoising but it robs the floor of some downforce. If Mercedes can actually solve the porposing without having to put slots, cuts, or curls into the floor edge they'll be able to generate vastly more downforce than the teams that have to do band aid fixes.

2) solving porpoising will mean Merc can run a softer suspension allowing for more mechanical grip improving cornering at high and low speeds - and the w13 already is the fastest low speed car so it'll only get better.

3) they'll be able to run the car lower further increasing down force.

4) they'll be able to run smaller wings and rely on the efficient floor for down force rather than the inefficient wings. Where efficiency means producing downforce with little drag.


The overall product should be alot more lap time and alot more top speed. I would suspect it would yield over 1 second gain in lap time if they can figure it out. Because even with all these major issues they're still the 3rd fastest showing you the potential of the w13.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by F87source

But imo when Mercedes fixes porpoising alot more than 1 second of lap time will come from it.

Why?

1) Because Mercedes will have a real fix implemented not a bandage but an actual solution to stop the air flow from stalling. What do I mean by this? Well currently redbull and Ferrari still porpoise but they're able to dial it out with setup changes and the cuts in the floor. These cuts in the floor allow air flow to move from the underfloor stopping the floor from stalling. This is a band aid for porpoising but it robs the floor of some downforce. If Mercedes can actually solve the porposing without having to put slots, cuts, or curls into the floor edge they'll be able to generate vastly more downforce than the teams that have to do band aid fixes.

2) solving porpoising will mean Merc can run a softer suspension allowing for more mechanical grip improving cornering at high and low speeds - and the w13 already is the fastest low speed car so it'll only get better.

3) they'll be able to run the car lower further increasing down force.

4) they'll be able to run smaller wings and rely on the efficient floor for down force rather than the inefficient wings. Where efficiency means producing downforce with little drag.


The overall product should be alot more lap time and alot more top speed. I would suspect it would yield over 1 second gain in lap time if they can figure it out. Because even with all these major issues they're still the 3rd fastest showing you the potential of the w13.

McLaren wants to do the same things. Easier said than done.

I know Russ said he thinks they are down 1sec per lap because he thinks they finished 30 sec behind after the safety car. But I don't think he was aware he was down over 17secs after just 10 laps. RB and Ferrari just drove away after the start. Merc was over 50sec behind when Gasly retired in Bahrain at lap 46. Honestly think they are down anywhere between 1.2-1.5sec in race pace, dependent on circuit type.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3WC

McLaren wants to do the same things. Easier said than done.

I know Russ said he thinks they are down 1sec per lap because he thinks they finished 30 sec behind after the safety car. But I don't think he was aware he was down over 17secs after just 10 laps. RB and Ferrari just drove away after the start. Merc was over 50sec behind when Gasly retired in Bahrain at lap 46. Honestly think they are down anywhere between 1.2-1.5sec in race pace, dependent on circuit type.

Obviously it is a difficult feat, but Mclaren isn't Mercedes. You don't win 8x in a row and have no idea what you're doing.


There is alot of pace to be had in the W13 once they're able to solve porpoising and I absolutely believe once that is solved they will be fighting for the title. The W13 has alot of extremely clever aero innovations that can't be utilized yet due to the porpoising. But the Zero pod concept is absolutely genius, the crash structure with the way it is implemented to create the required down wash is also genius. There are alot of cool tricks that merc haven't been able to flex yet and these will be really crucial once the performance in the W13 can be unlocked.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by F87source

Obviously it is a difficult feat, but Mclaren isn't Mercedes. You don't win 8x in a row and have no idea what you're doing.

Ehh, let's not get crazy here.

McLaren won 8 across multiple eras against some of the toughest competition out there from inside and outside of the team.

Mercedes created a masterpiece in one era that was untouchable for 99% of the time.

Mercedes hasn't earned the right to be in the same sentence as McLaren as far as legacy goes.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by F87source

Obviously it is a difficult feat, but Mclaren isn't Mercedes. You don't win 8x in a row and have no idea what you're doing.


There is alot of pace to be had in the W13 once they're able to solve porpoising and I absolutely believe once that is solved they will be fighting for the title. The W13 has alot of extremely clever aero innovations that can't be utilized yet due to the porpoising. But the Zero pod concept is absolutely genius, the crash structure with the way it is implemented to create the required down wash is also genius. There are alot of cool tricks that merc haven't been able to flex yet and these will be really crucial once the performance in the W13 can be unlocked.

If anyone can figure it out, it is Mercedes.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by NYG

Ehh, let's not get crazy here.

McLaren won 8 across multiple eras against some of the toughest competition out there from inside and outside of the team.

Mercedes created a masterpiece in one era that was untouchable for 99% of the time.

Mercedes hasn't earned the right to be in the same sentence as McLaren as far as legacy goes.

Mclaren has time on its side to win 8, it is much harder to win in a smaller period of time versus when you have alot of time. Look at ferrari they've been in f1 since 1950 which is 72 years and have 16 championships during that time. Impressive but they have had a long time to do it and plenty of time to recover between losses. Mercedes rejoined in 2010 and in the last 12 years have won 8 constructors titles - that's a 67% win rate vs 22% of ferrari.


Mercedes has shown what it is capable of:

1) creating the fastest f1 car in history in the W11
2) being first to create a 50% thermal efficent PU, and pioneering alot of tech used in f1 engines (prechamber igniton, split turbo, cooled plenumn etc).
3) Pioneered so many innovations and ina short period of time: squatting suspension, DAS, (braum which is now mercedes made the double diffuser), slotted wheel spacers to cool the brakes, wheel rims with bumps on it to increase cooling surface area to manage hot tires. The list doesn't end.


Mclaren has done alot of cool things like the f duct and second brake pedal, but that was over a long period of their existence and nothing to the scale mercedes has done and in such a short period of time.




In terms of legacy, past acomplishments don't really count anymore for the current era of F1. So despite mclaren's very good past, no one from that era still works for them anymore, and they are not even close to the level of mercedes on engineering.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3WC

If anyone can figure it out, it is Mercedes.

That's what I believe as well, but budget and wind tunnel/CFD limitations will hinder this slightly.


We will see, but remember every giant will fall eventually and maybe this is mercedes's time.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by F87source

Mclaren has time on its side to win 8, it is much harder to win in a smaller period of time versus when you have alot of time. Look at ferrari they've been in f1 since 1950 which is 72 years and have 16 championships during that time. Impressive but they have had a long time to do it and plenty of time to recover between losses. Mercedes rejoined in 2010 and in the last 12 years have won 8 constructors titles - that's a 67% win rate vs 22% of ferrari.


Mercedes has shown what it is capable of:

1) creating the fastest f1 car in history in the W11
2) being first to create a 50% thermal efficent PU, and pioneering alot of tech used in f1 engines (prechamber igniton, split turbo, cooled plenumn etc).
3) Pioneered so many innovations and ina short period of time: squatting suspension, DAS, (braum which is now mercedes made the double diffuser), slotted wheel spacers to cool the brakes, wheel rims with bumps on it to increase cooling surface area to manage hot tires. The list doesn't end.


Mclaren has done alot of cool things like the f duct and second brake pedal, but that was over a long period of their existence and nothing to the scale mercedes has done and in such a short period of time.




In terms of legacy, past acomplishments don't really count anymore for the current era of F1. So despite mclaren's very good past, no one from that era still works for them anymore, and they are not even close to the level of mercedes on engineering.

Lol...

McLaren defeated Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Lauda, Hunt, Hill, Andretti, Piquet, Mansell, Villenueve, etc. in 5 different eras.

I don't even know how you can compare such a historically insignificant team like Mercedes to McLaren. They're up there with Ferrari in the annals of F1. Mercedes isn't even close to being on the level of Williams. Recency bias/10

The only thing I can give Mercedes credit for is building the most dominant F1 car within an era of all time. It was smooth sailing for them for almost the entire era and they're off to a really terrible start to the new era.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by NYG

Lol...

McLaren defeated Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Lauda, Hunt, Hill, Andretti, Piquet, Mansell, Villenueve, etc. in 5 different eras.

I don't even know how you can compare such a historically insignificant team like Mercedes to McLaren. They're up there with Ferrari in the annals of F1. Mercedes isn't even close to being on the level of Williams. Recency bias/10

The only thing I can give Mercedes credit for is building the most dominant F1 car within an era of all time. It was smooth sailing for them for almost the entire era and they're off to a really terrible start to the new era.

Like I said before historically mclaren is the better team. But none of that past transfers over to building new cars today. Those mclaren engineers that helped pushed mclaren to the top are all gone now. It would be like saying look at the Edmonton Oilers they've won so many cups with Gretzky they're amazing they should be better than the golden knights since their history is so good. Well that doesn't matter anymore because times have changed, hockey is played differently now and those players are retired. The same applies to F1.

Look at the recent decade, after 2008 mclaren went downhill. They haven't been remotely close to fighting for titles ever since.


Historical significance doesn't mean much, performance means everything and mclaren has not been performing after '08. Look at williams very historically significant team, but they are at the back of the field. Why is that? Because history means nothing in terms of todays performance, if you get caught sleeping you're done for. That's what happened to ferrari for so long, and it took them forever to break out.


Mercedes is not a "recency bias" phenomenon, they won 8 straight with multiple regulation changes. They've proven they have the best engineers, and the know how to win today. Not yesterday but today. This also applies to redbull, an "insiginificant team historically" but absolutely one of the best teams of today - far surpassing mclaren.



Oh yeah one more thing, mclaren doesn't even have the same level of infrarstructure as mercedes. Mercedes has the state of the art chassis dynos, wind tunnels, and faciltiies. Mclaren is still rebuilding and developing their infrastructure and it will not be done for a couple more years. So right now in terms of solving porposing it will be mercedes that has the upper hand advantage, they have shown they have the skill, the know how, the work experience and resources to get things done. Mclaren is not on the level of mercedes in this regard and will not be for some time to come. An example is their 2022 car, mercedes even with a crap car developed with the least amount of CFD and wind tunnel time is 3rd fastest, mclaren isn't even in the points - that shows you right there the capabilities of either team.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by NYG

Stiffer spring/ride height/compression/rebound? Do they mention anything specific? HAM was a lot more nervous with the car.

Forgot to mention he also had a front wing adjustment to increase downforce, not sure if they went stiffer or softer on the rear.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Don't be worried my friend ...A. Newey is on our side !

Of course my friend, the only thing I can offer him is some cycling safety advice and lessons

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

In all honesty Perez did a good job. The rb18 is alot more stable than the rb16 and rb16b were.

Let's see if he can put the pressure on max.

I will say on the high speed windy tracks Checo does have something taking huge risks wiffing the wall very close but these types of tracks like Jedda are few and far between.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

RUS has more strength in his right foot ...

This is what's nailing HAM as well, no more 77 sympathy help anymore that he has had so cushy before, making for the easy championships and the wolf can't control Russ in this way.

[HFW003]

Cannot wait!

[NYG]

Originally Posted by F87source

Like I said before historically mclaren is the better team. But none of that past transfers over to building new cars today. Those mclaren engineers that helped pushed mclaren to the top are all gone now. It would be like saying look at the Edmonton Oilers they've won so many cups with Gretzky they're amazing they should be better than the golden knights since their history is so good. Well that doesn't matter anymore because times have changed, hockey is played differently now and those players are retired. The same applies to F1.

Look at the recent decade, after 2008 mclaren went downhill. They haven't been remotely close to fighting for titles ever since.


Historical significance doesn't mean much, performance means everything and mclaren has not been performing after '08. Look at williams very historically significant team, but they are at the back of the field. Why is that? Because history means nothing in terms of todays performance, if you get caught sleeping you're done for. That's what happened to ferrari for so long, and it took them forever to break out.


Mercedes is not a "recency bias" phenomenon, they won 8 straight with multiple regulation changes. They've proven they have the best engineers, and the know how to win today. Not yesterday but today. This also applies to redbull, an "insiginificant team historically" but absolutely one of the best teams of today - far surpassing mclaren.



Oh yeah one more thing, mclaren doesn't even have the same level of infrarstructure as mercedes. Mercedes has the state of the art chassis dynos, wind tunnels, and faciltiies. Mclaren is still rebuilding and developing their infrastructure and it will not be done for a couple more years. So right now in terms of solving porposing it will be mercedes that has the upper hand advantage, they have shown they have the skill, the know how, the work experience and resources to get things done. Mclaren is not on the level of mercedes in this regard and will not be for some time to come. An example is their 2022 car, mercedes even with a crap car developed with the least amount of CFD and wind tunnel time is 3rd fastest, mclaren isn't even in the points - that shows you right there the capabilities of either team.

You should be warned that while I am a Verstappen fan - my ultimate loyalty is with McLaren and my pitchforks are ready.

[NYG]

I'm just going to throw this one out there:

If Mick starts driving closer to Magnussen's level - I think Haas can be in the fight for 3rd in constructors. Mercedes will improve but so will Haas. The odds are against Haas vs MB but Simone Resta is legit.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by NYG

You should be warned that while I am a Verstappen fan - my ultimate loyalty is with McLaren and my pitchforks are ready.

Well it's gotta suck to see McLaren struggle then, and it's probably gonna suck for awhile as they try to recover.