[x622]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Blackwing has grown on me quite a bit. I'd buy it over a M5.

Wow now that I think about it, you're right. Pigfat g90 or a CT5V? Sure you won't ever go anywhere fast since they didn't bother to make it AWD, but it isn't a battlecruiser like the G90 in weight.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Yeah there's a lot of C4s that are slow by modern standards. It had 200hp when it came out... In 1984. That was quite a bit of power then, and it got the TPI motor the next year with even more power. The early 80s were not a high point for power output, even the much more expensive Porsche 928 was making 230hp then. BMW M6 was making similar power, as was 911. Stuff like a GTI was under 100hp.

Power issues aside, the C4 had an insanely good chassis and suspension for its time. It was one of the best handling cars of its day, despite coming with a large powerful engine. It may not have modern level power, but taken in its time, it was a beast of a machine.

That said, I would agree, when they started to put Camaro on Zeta, they transformed Camaro into more of a sports car. This was a HUGELY unsuccessful move, and sales were really only bolstered by styling, and the fact that it had been MIA for years since the F Body cars. The 6th gen on Alpha went even further the wrong way and resulted in poor sales and the literal death of the car. GM totallyissed the mark on what Camaro buyers wanted, trying to build M3s. Camaro buyers wanted an inexpensive tire shredding V8 that a young person could buy, afford, and drive, and they wanted it to feel like a muscle car.

Yes the CTSV2 stomps all over the CTSV1. It has 150hp more. It's also a much more modern interior than the short model year difference would lead you to believe. It doesn't do much for me, but I can understand why people like it.

I wouldn't consider myself a Corvette fanboy. Just someone who is aware of the performance they offer for the money. They can't be beat in performance value.

I would disagree and say the 6th gen Alpha went further in the right way, it just went further in the wrong way for people who didn't actually want a good driving dynamic car. They want SUVs, they want trucks, they want strait-line performance overwhelmingly. There are literally dozens of challengers for each C6 Camaro SS, people don't care about the weight or the handling, they just want it to go when they push the pedal and for it to "look cool". The Corvette is once again becoming the outlier, as they put all the resources into making this the pinnacle of sports cars, but they have largely given up on the performance side of things, because people just aren't interested in performance. The Alpha chassis was the RIGHT chassis for the vehicles they made, just the wrong products for the market. People are convinced they need to have 6 kids, tow a boat uphill at 85mph and constantly build their home. I think we are largely on the trailing end of performance cars that make sacrifices for all out performance. The ones that will be left over will be outliers as the model lines get more and more bland and homogeneous. Everything will be able to go crazy fast in a straight line, but driving dynamics will be a thing of the past.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by RM7

Everything will be able to go crazy fast in a straight line, but driving dynamics will be a thing of the past.

We're basically already there. Speed is cheap.

Great time to buy old cool cars and keep em forever. We'll see what Japan does this next generation but I expect to find myself looking to the past for all future purchases.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

We're basically already there. Speed is cheap.

Great time to buy old cool cars and keep em forever. We'll see what Japan does this next generation but I expect to find myself looking to the past for all future purchases.

Agree. I've got mine already. Now, only if someone keeps making parts for them...

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by RM7

I would disagree and say the 6th gen Alpha went further in the right way, it just went further in the wrong way for people who didn't actually want a good driving dynamic car. They want SUVs, they want trucks, they want strait-line performance overwhelmingly. There are literally dozens of challengers for each C6 Camaro SS, people don't care about the weight or the handling, they just want it to go when they push the pedal and for it to "look cool". The Corvette is once again becoming the outlier, as they put all the resources into making this the pinnacle of sports cars, but they have largely given up on the performance side of things, because people just aren't interested in performance. The Alpha chassis was the RIGHT chassis for the vehicles they made, just the wrong products for the market. People are convinced they need to have 6 kids, tow a boat uphill at 85mph and constantly build their home. I think we are largely on the trailing end of performance cars that make sacrifices for all out performance. The ones that will be left over will be outliers as the model lines get more and more bland and homogeneous. Everything will be able to go crazy fast in a straight line, but driving dynamics will be a thing of the past.

Overall, I don't disagree, other than right way vs wrong way is up to the market to decide. While I might like cars with a responsive chassis, most people in that segment wanted simple, spacious enough to daily, and big V8 sounds. You nailed it with the success of challenger and charger, they WHOOPED Camaro and Mustang in sales because you got the experience of a muscle car, but also had room to be comfortable. Reality is, most people don't care about lap times, and as long as they handle well enough on the street (and let's be clear - even the big fat chargers and challengers handle very well compared to average cars or even older sports cars).

Car companies have to judge their markets, and GM utterly failed at that. Building the best M3 fighter is a great endeavor, except for if that's not what your clients want. Then it's just a waste.

Electric cars have killed dynamics. Any loser can go buy a Tesla that does 0-60 fast enough for them to spread smugness all over the place. But they're also shit excuses for performance cars, they're the ultimate one trick pony. Acceleration has been commoditized, and I think that honestly, dynamics is what will set cars apart in the future. You can get the same 0-60 as a Porsche 911 in a $100k less EV, the reason you'd buy the 911 will have to either be branding, which only works for so long, or dynamics, that EVs can't do.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by RM7

I would disagree and say the 6th gen Alpha went further in the right way, it just went further in the wrong way for people who didn't actually want a good driving dynamic car. They want SUVs, they want trucks, they want strait-line performance overwhelmingly. There are literally dozens of challengers for each C6 Camaro SS, people don't care about the weight or the handling, they just want it to go when they push the pedal and for it to "look cool". The Corvette is once again becoming the outlier, as they put all the resources into making this the pinnacle of sports cars, but they have largely given up on the performance side of things, because people just aren't interested in performance. The Alpha chassis was the RIGHT chassis for the vehicles they made, just the wrong products for the market. People are convinced they need to have 6 kids, tow a boat uphill at 85mph and constantly build their home. I think we are largely on the trailing end of performance cars that make sacrifices for all out performance. The ones that will be left over will be outliers as the model lines get more and more bland and homogeneous. Everything will be able to go crazy fast in a straight line, but driving dynamics will be a thing of the past.

I almost don't want to agree with you because you were slurping down on those same souless appliances in another thread here. How can you have a level headed take then go and fanboy electric car garbage.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I almost don't want to agree with you because you were slurping down on those same souless appliances in another thread here. How can you have a level headed take then go and fanboy electric car garbage.

Cuz it's not just an EV thing. People go straw-man when they complain about the weight of a TMS that is the same or lighter than the AMG E63 and Audi RS6. Then there are SUVs, which making crazy high HP for straightline is the current thing. The EVs don't have to be soul-less too, they can perform quite well in certain races and situations, including turning. But 2-door sports EVs like the original roadster? That's probably not going to happen very often, since most people care about the straight-line and family-hauling capability and that's going to override most everything else. It's not really an EV thing, it's all cars. Pretty much what everyone wants in the US is an SUV or truck.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by RM7

Cuz it's not just an EV thing. People go straw-man when they complain about the weight of a TMS that is the same or lighter than the AMG E63 and Audi RS6. Then there are SUVs, which making crazy high HP for straightline is the current thing. The EVs don't have to be soul-less too, they can perform quite well in certain races and situations, including turning. But 2-door sports EVs like the original roadster? That's probably not going to happen very often, since most people care about the straight-line and family-hauling capability and that's going to override most everything else. It's not really an EV thing, it's all cars. Pretty much what everyone wants in the US is an SUV or truck.

That's also largely due to regulations. Automakers get destroyed with CAFE fines for cars.

That said, I think a lot of it is also diminishing returns. If you look at cars back say, 30 years ago, there was a BIG difference between something that was sporty, and something that was a truck, and something that was cheap. Taking a truck on a winding road was a nightmare, they were way sketchy to drive, same with w cheap economy car. There was a HUGE difference between something like a 5 series and a basic sedan. Fast forward to today and even something like an F150 actually handles pretty good. You could take one down some twisty mountain roads and even have a little fun, vs feeling like you were in danger like in an old truck.

So really, if one is just commuting in a city with a bunch of traffic and red lights, why would anyone prioritize a lightweight compact car, if they can get all the chassis and handling they'll ever need out of a larger, safer, more comfortable vehicle? And that vehicle also might be able to tow, or haul stuff, and will hold your kids. And if you're a performance nut, you can even get something like an X5 with a great chassis, and suspension that magically hides the weight, and boatloads of power. It's kind of a win-win. And of course, it might end up being cheaper, because it's a light truck and the CAFE rules for those are a lot more lax.

Also, let's not forget why the Tesla is light. It's cheap shit. It has no interior. It has no high quality materials. It's a modern day Soviet car, no style, no design, no luxury, just cheap and checkboxed features. You can't compare it to an E63 or an RS6, those are nice cars, they're heavy

[MaxVO2]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Also, let's not forget why the Tesla is light. It's cheap shit. It has no interior. It has no high quality materials. It's a modern day Soviet car, no style, no design, no luxury, just cheap and checkboxed features. You can't compare it to an E63 or an RS6, those are nice cars, they're heavy

***Hmm... There's a joke about thick chicks in here somewhere!!!

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Honestly if you don't like the now dead SS, check out a blackwing.

Blackwing has grown on me quite a bit. I'd buy it over a M5.

I do like it. I like them all. Can I afford another project car - that's the question.