[imported_mega]

corvette competes with the viper, and viper sales are gone, really gone and dodge is trying to dump the viper brand, selling the whole works

[rcracer_tx]

7 out of the top 10 are domestic auto makers! Jeremy, how can an industry that you work for the quality control division have such crappy ratings? I thought they had the same quality standards as imports?

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Ok, stop the member bashing please. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.

+1 AND is this member here to pursue a GM agenda?

To JB135i - excellent post.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Pirate

+1 AND is this member here to pursue a GM agenda?

To JB135i - excellent post.

Why not? There are members here who are obviously pursuing an anti-GM agenda. :iono:

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

7 out of the top 10 are domestic auto makers! Jeremy, how can an industry that you work for the quality control division have such crappy ratings? I thought they had the same quality standards as imports?

Do you even bother to read posts you're responding to?

I never said I work for the quality control divisions. I work WITH them, and there are a TON of Hondas and Toyotas built in the US. I work with suppliers and various manufacturers, including GM, Honda, Toyota, BMW, and VW.

There's very little difference in the standards these days.

But hey, what the hell do I know...I just spend every day of the week building the equipment that builds the stuff. Feel free to think whatever you want.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by JB135i

Are sales of M3's, 135i's, Caymans, IS-F's, G37's, Lotus's, 911's declining at the SAME RATE as Corvette's? Or, are these other cars increasing in sales even?
That's the real question here, not make vs. make sales figures, but sales of similar cars.

"Combined Boxster and Cayman sales fell by 66 percent in the month."
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/080903/porsche.html?.v=1

What they probably mean is August '08 vs '07, but compare that with the link in the opening post:
"Corvette sales were down 8.5 percent for the year through August of 2008."

That's pretty close to the 9% decline in the Cayenne, which accounts for roughly half of all Porsche sales (and the Cayenne had a major refresh not too long ago).
1-Series, M3, IS-F, G37 are all fairly new models, so you won't see sales figures compared to August '07. However, 3-Series sales are down 14% compared to last year. Z4 roadster & coupe sales are down 51%. 1-Series sales slipped by 10% in August. It's also down 33% compared to the highest sales point back in May.

Regarding CR reliability reports, I wouldn't read too much into that either. Most cars nowadays are very reliable. It's quite a stretch to say that simply because a car rates less than average, it's therefore somehow poorly made or otherwise a piece of crap.

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

There's very little difference in the standards these days.

But hey, what the hell do I know...I just spend every day of the week building the equipment that builds the stuff. Feel free to think whatever you want.

Apparently not much...look at the reliability ratings of the car manufactures. Theres a big difference between the ratings of U.S. car manufactures and most imports. why is the reliability of Toyota/lexus/Scion and Honda/Acura consistently at the top whereas GM/Chevy is consistently towards the bottom?

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

There's no question about the fact that GM has some issues, but at this point being able to design and build quality vehicles isn't one of them. If you're not going to bother to look up the numbers before you offer an opinion, it's probably better to just leave it alone. You obivously dislike GM, and that's fine, but it's very clear that you don't have a reason based in fact for doing so.

Actually I don't have to look up the facts to support my stance on GM again because JB135i already posted it up. Being in the bottom ten manufactures in terms of reliability does mean that at this point being able to design and build quality vehicles is a big problem. Whats your evidence to the contrary?

Originally Posted by Guibo

Most cars nowadays are very reliable. It's quite a stretch to say that simply because a car rates less than average, it's therefore somehow poorly made or otherwise a piece of crap.

I would say that build quality has a huge affect on reliability. Poor engineering= poor quality and Poor quality= Poor reliability and Poor reliability= shitty ratings.

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Ok, stop the member bashing please. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.

Thats ok I don't mind...People who can't compete on an intellectual level usually resort to name calling.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

Thats ok I don't mind...People who can't compete on an intellectual level usually resort to name calling.

What names have I called you?

You can't even get that much straight, let alone grasp what goes into making a quality vehicle. You posted an opinion that sounded like something that would come out of a child's mouth, and then tried to back it up with year old "facts". What intellectual level are you on just exactly?

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

This is good news GM is halting production. Maybe we will see less garbage GM cars the road. Is anybody else tired of seeing our government bailing out a company that is a complete failure at sustaining itself consistently? I wonder why it can't sale enough cars to be profitable?:iono: Oh wait, because GM produces absolute crap.

Do you even consider the fact that domestic auto production is a HUGE part of our economy? Or the fact that government isn't bailing out the automakers? Or that the governments of Japanese and European automakes dump billions of dollars to support their domestic industries, while we expect ours to do it on their own in most cases?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

Apparently not much...look at the reliability ratings of the car manufactures. Theres a big difference between the ratings of U.S. car manufactures and most imports. why is the reliability of Toyota/lexus/Scion and Honda/Acura consistently at the top whereas GM/Chevy is consistently towards the bottom?



Actually I don't have to look up the facts to support my stance on GM again because JB135i already posted it up. Being in the bottom ten manufactures in terms of reliability does mean that at this point being able to design and build quality vehicles is a big problem. Whats your evidence to the contrary?




I would say that build quality has a huge affect on reliability. Poor engineering= poor quality and Poor quality= Poor reliability and Poor reliability= shitty ratings.

Well then, lets just look at some more quality data:




Now, according to that survey, which is every bit as good as Consumer Reports, GM has four brands which are above average. BMW and Volkswagon are both below the middle. We won't even get into Mini.

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

What names have I called you?

You can't even get that much straight, let alone grasp what goes into making a quality vehicle. You posted an opinion that sounded like something that would come out of a child's mouth, and then tried to back it up with year old "facts". What intellectual level are you on just exactly?

I wasn't the only one who saw it. The mods were the ones who called you out on it.

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Why do you insist on making mindless statements in every single thread you post in?

I would say it was more of name bashing more than calling. What facts have you contributed to the thread so far? I put facts on the forum and have contributed knowledge. I admitted I made a mistake on the one point and changed my argument accordingly. You on the other hand have no facts to base your opinions on but seem to know more than anybody else?

[ChrisK]

Ok...either the thread goes back on topic and the arguing stops, or I get the industrial strength thread locker.

:wink:

[JB135i]

I didn't have time this AM to get all the sales figures I was looking for, TY for posting some of them up...

I think one of the above posters pointed out a very interesting bit of info.

Which is this, many of the most reliable brands (cars) are MADE HERE. Which tells me a great deal. The workers are capable of building good cars and the infrastructure here is also fine.

Seems to me then, it's inferior engineering and/or inferior assembly line tecniques or technology and/or inferior materials.

Good find on the JD Power survey too, but a bit of caution should be used when relying on their data-

From Wikipedia:

Although publicly known for the endorsement value of its product awards, J.D. Power obtains the majority of its revenue from corporations that seek the data collected from J.D. Power surveys for internal use.[1] Companies which have used J.D. Power surveys range from Automotive, cellphone, and computer manufacturers to Home Builders, and Utility companies. To be able to use the J.D. Power logo and to quote the survey results in advertising, companies must pay a licensing fee to J.D. Power. These advertisement licensing fees, however, form a small part of J.D. Power's revenues.[1] In the 1990s, J.D. Power tightened its rules on awards advertising to prevent excessive use of the J.D. Power logo.[3]

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by JB135i

From Wikipedia:

Although publicly known for the endorsement value of its product awards, J.D. Power obtains the majority of its revenue from corporations that seek the data collected from J.D. Power surveys for internal use.[1] Companies which have used J.D. Power surveys range from Automotive, cellphone, and computer manufacturers to Home Builders, and Utility companies. To be able to use the J.D. Power logo and to quote the survey results in advertising, companies must pay a licensing fee to J.D. Power. These advertisement licensing fees, however, form a small part of J.D. Power's revenues.[1] In the 1990s, J.D. Power tightened its rules on awards advertising to prevent excessive use of the J.D. Power logo.[3]

+1

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by JB135i

I didn't have time this AM to get all the sales figures I was looking for, TY for posting some of them up...

I think one of the above posters pointed out a very interesting bit of info.

Which is this, many of the most reliable brands (cars) are MADE HERE. Which tells me a great deal. The workers are capable of building good cars and the infrastructure here is also fine.

Seems to me then, it's inferior engineering and/or inferior assembly line tecniques or technology and/or inferior materials.

Good find on the JD Power survey too, but a bit of caution should be used when relying on their data-

Honestly, I hate to bring up any of those surveys, but sometimes there's no way around it. I don't think any of them do a great job of collecting real world data. For example, certain brands are bound to be taken better care of than others. As an example, Buick scores better than other GM vehicle on a lot of these studies, yet the vehicles share platforms, powertrains, and assembly lines in some cases. The only reasonable explaination is that Buick owners aren't as demanding. Scion on the other hand, gets low marks on a lot of them, and a shares tons of parts with Toyotas that score much higher.


My point with all this, is that the Corvette's sales are suffering due to overall economic reasons, not because it's a poorly built car. The Corvette is routinely near the top of owner satisfaction surveys, and has a lot of repeat customers.

Consumer Reports for example:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-406/overview/


BMW has faired pretty well recently when compared to other luxury/premium cars, but when you look at the money they're losing on lease returns it's no wonder, and it's a direct result of a sagging economy, not the quality of the vehicles. :w00t:

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

+1

That would be worthy of a +1, if it somehow invalidated the data. It doesn't. It's like saying BMW does well in C&D tests because BMW pays C&D for advertising. That's true, they do pay for advertising. But so do other companies.

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

...the Corvette's sales are suffering due to overall economic reasons, not because it's a poorly built car.

Bingo. Otherwise, I'd like to hear why Cayman/Boxster and Z4 sales are down 50-60%. Must be due to poor quality.

BTW, Lexus LS sales for August '08 vs '07: -44.0%. Must be junk.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Honestly, I hate to bring up any of those surveys, but sometimes there's no way around it. I don't think any of them do a great job of collecting real world data. For example, certain brands are bound to be taken better care of than others. As an example, Buick scores better than other GM vehicle on a lot of these studies, yet the vehicles share platforms, powertrains, and assembly lines in some cases. The only reasonable explaination is that Buick owners aren't as demanding. Scion on the other hand, gets low marks on a lot of them, and a shares tons of parts with Toyotas that score much higher.


My point with all this, is that the Corvette's sales are suffering due to overall economic reasons, not because it's a poorly built car. The Corvette is routinely near the top of owner satisfaction surveys, and has a lot of repeat customers.

Consumer Reports for example:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-406/overview/


BMW has faired pretty well recently when compared to other luxury/premium cars, but when you look at the money they're losing on lease returns it's no wonder, and it's a direct result of a sagging economy, not the quality of the vehicles. :w00t:

I agree 100% that the Corvette is a symbol of American pride. No European wants to see that car in the rear view mirror.

[ptack]

JD Powers is definitely not the same as CR in terms of the reliability of their "data". CR tries as much as possible to keep the companies they review at arms length (no advertising) whereas JD is quite happy to get in bed with them. Maybe their data is pure, but as soon as you take money from the people you're reviewing, your motives can become suspect.

All that said, many people's opinions about cars develop overtime and a lot of what you see here stems from the admittedly terrible design and quality control US manufacturers have demonstrated in the past. What has changed faster than those perceptions is the globalization of production. Is an American-made Toyota still better made than an Amercian-made Ford? It might not be. It might be designed/engineered better, but even that work might largely be done in the US as well so maybe it's not better.

If you look around the world at all the car reviews you can find, I think you'll consistently find the Corvette to be probably the most highly regarded American car. If sales are off here I would bet anything it has to do with the economic situation of it's demographic target group than with the car itself. I'm sure Chevy knows exactly who the Corvette's buyer's are and there may not be much they can do about their plight.

Now that gets to the real point. Does Chevy have the right strategy for the vette? Were they blind-sided by this and why? To me it's a lot more interesting to look at car company apparent strategies than to trade anecdotes about lemons, though that is what we know most about.

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by Guibo

That would be worthy of a +1, if it somehow invalidated the data. It doesn't. It's like saying BMW does well in C&D tests because BMW pays C&D for advertising. That's true, they do pay for advertising. But so do other companies.


Bingo. Otherwise, I'd like to hear why Cayman/Boxster and Z4 sales are down 50-60%. Must be due to poor quality.

BTW, Lexus LS sales for August '08 vs '07: -44.0%. Must be junk.

Actually it proves that they are not non biased and are influenced by there supporters.

How is BMW and Lexus doing as a company? The subject we are discussing is why GM is always losing money and can't sustain itself.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

The subject we are discussing is why GM is always losing money and can't sustain itself.

No, the subject we were discussing was the fact that Corvette (and other cars in its class and price range) sales were down. You decided to wiegh in with a narrow minded opinion and bring up bailouts that haven't happend (and aren't really even bailouts), and how you hoped GM fails.

GM isn't "always loosing money". They are losing money recently, and there are a lot of different reasons for it, which you don't even seem to care to know.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

Actually it proves that they are not non biased and are influenced by there supporters.

How is BMW and Lexus doing as a company? The subject we are discussing is why GM is always losing money and can't sustain itself.

It doesn't prove it at all. There's quite a gulf between implication and proof. The survey results come from owners, not the manufacturers. You'd be hard pressed to prove that GM's money has more sway than Toyota or Honda. Both of which do well in JD Power surveys too. Is that the result of shoddy workmanship masked by company funding to JD Power?

These are the results of August 2008 sales, compared to last year.
BMW: -4.1%
Lexus: -9.1%
Mercedes: -11.8%
Audi: -15.9%
Porsche: -45%

And has been quite rightly observed, the subject we are discussing is why the Corvette sales are down to the point that production is halted. If you still think it's something other than the economy (err, recession), I'd like to know why BMW, Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes, etc are also in a slump. Is it due to crappy quality?

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

No, the subject we were discussing was the fact that Corvette (and other cars in its class and price range) sales were down. You decided to wiegh in with a narrow minded opinion and bring up bailouts that haven't happend (and aren't really even bailouts), and how you hoped GM fails.

GM isn't "always loosing money". They are losing money recently, and there are a lot of different reasons for it, which you don't even seem to care to know.

Jeremy? Is this necessary... Why do you continue to provoke?

"You decided to wiegh in with a narrow minded opinion and bring up bailouts that haven't happend (and aren't really even bailouts), and how you hoped GM fails."