[ferrari6891]

Originally Posted by Feli_330i

Thankfully the world is suppose to end in 2012, so we won't have to see this.

:c lap:

[DK_12]

Originally Posted by Futie

Do you really think that such a multi-billion corporation as BMW will make a ''WRONG'' step into the future?!?!?

Why can't it? BMW is no different from any other corporation. It performs research and runs tests just like every one else, and doesn't have some secret formula. Microsoft, Apple, Toyota, GM, banks, Starbucks, etc. have all failed before in their strategy of future growth. As a matter of fact, it appears the 5-GT has been an utter flop and X6 hasn't had much success either.

I don't even think BMW is developing a FWD to increase fuel efficiency (although it'll help and there was probably some consideration). The problem with BMW right now is that they're trying to build a car for everyone. That's just not my opinion, because BMW representatives have made it pretty clear that rapid sales growth is what they're aiming for. They obviously don't have that much of a competetive advantage in engineering as they once used to, so new models and market segments is one of the few ways they see themselves growing and trying to keep sales ahead of its competitors. Also we have seen recent refreshes (Z4, 7, 5) all become more luxurious and less sporty. BMW sees further growth potential from reaching more into masses than losing a few enthusiasts. The auto market in general is going through big changes. You'll find less enthusiasts in Gen X/Y compared to the baby bommer generation, and I think the market is changing accordingly. Public transportation and environmental friendliness is the new trend and probably one for the forseeable future. I think there was a recent report from the AP that said luxury autosales to younger people are down precipitously over the last decade and there's a big concern this trend is going to continue.

I understand there's a lot going on in regards to market trends and regulation, but I personally don't like where all this is going and I hope their strategy fails. No business rides high forever and if history proves correct, my wish will likely come true. BMW has really lost some of their competetive advantage, and for me personally, they're making it worse with this electric steering issue. I feel like this is the one area BMW still has an advantage, but obviously that's changing as well with the alleged debacle of the Z4 and 5 steering. I'm interested to see where all this ends up.

[JackMac]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

So, the move toward FWD for this model line is motivated almost purely by the fact that they already have the platform (Mini) at their disposal.

Exactly. BMW will be leveraging these platforms to their fullest. If it were your company, wouldn't you do the same?

I can see where there is a market for smaller cars to have FWD. However I would not expect any of these types of driveline changes on cars bigger than the 1er in the future.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by JackMac

Exactly. BMW will be leveraging these platforms to their fullest. If it were your company, wouldn't you do the same?

Maybe. I suppose it all depends on long term strategies and goals and lots of data which I do not have access to.

Just for example though, I doubt we will see BMW building 1-series-based RWD Minis any time soon, even though there might very well be a market for such vehicles. So then, there's still a bit more to it than just circumstance.

[BGM]

Originally Posted by supadan

Why can't it? BMW is no different from any other corporation. It performs research and runs tests just like every one else, and doesn't have some secret formula. Microsoft, Apple, Toyota, GM, banks, Starbucks, etc. have all failed before in their strategy of future growth. As a matter of fact, it appears the 5-GT has been an utter flop and X6 hasn't had much success either.

I don't even think BMW is developing a FWD to increase fuel efficiency (although it'll help and there was probably some consideration). The problem with BMW right now is that they're trying to build a car for everyone. That's just not my opinion, because BMW representatives have made it pretty clear that rapid sales growth is what they're aiming for. They obviously don't have that much of a competetive advantage in engineering as they once used to, so new models and market segments is one of the few ways they see themselves growing and trying to keep sales ahead of its competitors. Also we have seen recent refreshes (Z4, 7, 5) all become more luxurious and less sporty. BMW sees further growth potential from reaching more into masses than losing a few enthusiasts. The auto market in general is going through big changes. You'll find less enthusiasts in Gen X/Y compared to the baby bommer generation, and I think the market is changing accordingly. Public transportation and environmental friendliness is the new trend and probably one for the forseeable future. I think there was a recent report from the AP that said luxury autosales to younger people are down precipitously over the last decade and there's a big concern this trend is going to continue.

I understand there's a lot going on in regards to market trends and regulation, but I personally don't like where all this is going and I hope their strategy fails. No business rides high forever and if history proves correct, my wish will likely come true. BMW has really lost some of their competetive advantage, and for me personally, they're making it worse with this electric steering issue. I feel like this is the one area BMW still has an advantage, but obviously that's changing as well with the alleged debacle of the Z4 and 5 steering. I'm interested to see where all this ends up.

this is a great post^^

perhaps this will be like the A-Class though?... ok, so you own a Benz, but everyone knows you chose that one cos you were too tight for a proper one..

everyone laughs..

hopefully i can get into a porsche by the time this happens... but we shall see

[DTM-R13]

Originally Posted by oct1285

I'm sure a majority of consumers could care less which wheels are being driven. They just want the badge. Not everybody is "enthusiast"

Welcome to BMW

[Frosty]

VERY well said, BMW will be a GM if they continue in this fashon. They know now they have one of hte TOP TOP brands and are using that for expansion insted of quality and premium. Focus on hte premium aspect not on world domination.

Originally Posted by e46e92love

BINGO.


What has always made BMW different, is that they were a small company, with VERY strong engineering principles. Now they are becoming a large company with VERY strong marketing / sales / financial principles. How did this happen you ask? When you hire someone who has a bunch of fancy degrees but truly doesn't appreciate the culture, history or soul of the company that is hiring them, you get a growing body of number crunchers; people who think, "wow, this looks great on paper so it must be great"; these people continue to grow in numbers has they begin to rise through the ranks and begin to impart a larger influence on the company's hiring practices, which in turn turns out more of this new breed of employee till finally their numbers and seniority are strong enough to change / alter affect the company's methods, beliefs and stated mission statement.

For those of you who have no idea what I'm blabbing on about, picture your local NHL team. Why NHL you ask? Because like BMW its a sport that despite is professional status, still behaves and feels much like a small sport that has hung onto its values and beliefs above all else. NHL teams have two distinct, and in many ways, separate divisions of the front office: the hockey operations and sales operations:

1) Sales encompasses all the smart marketing, sales, cost factoring
men and woman with fancy degrees and experience from many
places other than Professional Hockey.

2) Hockey operations encompasses your scouting department, talent
evaluation, GM, etc. Now, no right-minded owner has one side's
experts run the other sides.

You may say that one side "affects" the other and that is in fact true, but one does not in any way have the authority to make decisions for the other (salary cap concerns are actually managed by the hockey side).

BMW, as clearly evidenced by many of the bone-head statements from many of their new executives, has blurred the line of separation that NHL teams maintain and know to never blur. BMW continues to cut down on engineers, and load up on marketing and sales guys. Their heads of divisions continue to scare many of us with statements that expose their complete lack of understanding or appreciation of what has made BMW, and its brand, what it is today.

No, I am not yearning for them to remake the e36, I really don't have my head that far up my a**. What I am asking for, is for BMW to say, "This is who we are, we are not you, or him, or her, we are BMW. There are many things we do and many things we don't do. We focus on the things we do, maximize our profits, and continue to strengthen our identity and resolve to remember and maintain who we are." BMW has failed to do this and this failure I fear will grow like a cancer that can only weaken the company.

Rather you are seeing BMW do what many U.S. companies have done, and regretted: let their ego and greed convince them that they should do more, be more, and accomplish more. Its why many U.S. companies are being strangled under the reporting and operation requirements that comes with becoming a listed company; the effects of which they truly did not comprehend when deciding to go public. All they say were the dollar signs that CAN BE (not guaranteed) associated with going public. Hence, why the trend of the last few years is as many companies de-listing as listing, something, which by the way, takes a WHOLE LOT OF CAPITAL.

BMW decisions won't take hold today or even tomorrow, as the the reputation of the brand will withstand this onslaught for years, however, once the idea takes hold in the consumers minds that the product represents X, instead of Y, no matter what BMW does at that moment, she will begin to slide from public favor, which will further weaken the company.

BMW, is making the same mistakes Merc did oh so many years ago, mistakes that Merc has yet to recover from as evidenced by the decline in quality and market share as compared to 20yrs ago. Mistakes that were made well before any of us truly saw the impacts of those mistakes, but believe me, regardless of the delay of consequence stemming from our mistakes, the day of payment ALWAYS arrives.

Cheers,
e46e92

[BGM]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

BINGO.


What has always made BMW different, is that they were a small company, with VERY strong engineering principles. Now they are becoming a large company with VERY strong marketing / sales / financial principles. How did this happen you ask? When you hire someone who has a bunch of fancy degrees but truly doesn't appreciate the culture, history or soul of the company that is hiring them, you get a growing body of number crunchers; people who think, "wow, this looks great on paper so it must be great"; these people continue to grow in numbers has they begin to rise through the ranks and begin to impart a larger influence on the company's hiring practices, which in turn turns out more of this new breed of employee till finally their numbers and seniority are strong enough to change / alter affect the company's methods, beliefs and stated mission statement.

For those of you who have no idea what I'm blabbing on about, picture your local NHL team. Why NHL you ask? Because like BMW its a sport that despite is professional status, still behaves and feels much like a small sport that has hung onto its values and beliefs above all else. NHL teams have two distinct, and in many ways, separate divisions of the front office: the hockey operations and sales operations:

1) Sales encompasses all the smart marketing, sales, cost factoring
men and woman with fancy degrees and experience from many
places other than Professional Hockey.

2) Hockey operations encompasses your scouting department, talent
evaluation, GM, etc. Now, no right-minded owner has one side's
experts run the other sides.

You may say that one side "affects" the other and that is in fact true, but one does not in any way have the authority to make decisions for the other (salary cap concerns are actually managed by the hockey side).

BMW, as clearly evidenced by many of the bone-head statements from many of their new executives, has blurred the line of separation that NHL teams maintain and know to never blur. BMW continues to cut down on engineers, and load up on marketing and sales guys. Their heads of divisions continue to scare many of us with statements that expose their complete lack of understanding or appreciation of what has made BMW, and its brand, what it is today.

No, I am not yearning for them to remake the e36, I really don't have my head that far up my a**. What I am asking for, is for BMW to say, "This is who we are, we are not you, or him, or her, we are BMW. There are many things we do and many things we don't do. We focus on the things we do, maximize our profits, and continue to strengthen our identity and resolve to remember and maintain who we are." BMW has failed to do this and this failure I fear will grow like a cancer that can only weaken the company.

Rather you are seeing BMW do what many U.S. companies have done, and regretted: let their ego and greed convince them that they should do more, be more, and accomplish more. Its why many U.S. companies are being strangled under the reporting and operation requirements that comes with becoming a listed company; the effects of which they truly did not comprehend when deciding to go public. All they say were the dollar signs that CAN BE (not guaranteed) associated with going public. Hence, why the trend of the last few years is as many companies de-listing as listing, something, which by the way, takes a WHOLE LOT OF CAPITAL.

BMW decisions won't take hold today or even tomorrow, as the the reputation of the brand will withstand this onslaught for years, however, once the idea takes hold in the consumers minds that the product represents X, instead of Y, no matter what BMW does at that moment, she will begin to slide from public favor, which will further weaken the company.

BMW, is making the same mistakes Merc did oh so many years ago, mistakes that Merc has yet to recover from as evidenced by the decline in quality and market share as compared to 20yrs ago. Mistakes that were made well before any of us truly saw the impacts of those mistakes, but believe me, regardless of the delay of consequence stemming from our mistakes, the day of payment ALWAYS arrives.

Cheers,
e46e92

this wants framing.. and perhaps emailing to BMW!

[Matski]

Hold up.. Audi managed to flog FWD A8's, and the vast majority of Audi's I see on the road are FWD, and Audi's global sales are comparable to BMW's... they offer FWD and AWD.. BMW will offer RWD, AWD and FWD ... the fact it is, that although there may be 10,000 enthusiasts on a web forum who are against BMW offering a FWD car, for every one of them there are 100 people that don't care which wheels are driven, so long as the car lives up to it's brand values... RWD is not a BMW brand value...

Technology
Quality
Performance
Exclusivity

I got those from the BMW group website a little while ago.

Much as I hate them - FWD's can perfom, they can be well engineered and well made... the compromise here is in the exclusivity.. but personally that doesn't matter to me, as has been pointed out already in this thread, if this is what it takes for BMW to offer the cars that we do love, then it is a necessary evil.

What will suck, is if it does not hold it's own against the Focuses and Golfs of this world... it's one thing to play in the lower leagues, but to get beaten in the lower leagues

Just my 2 cents..

I love everything that rolls out of a BMW factory, every new model is just another thread in the rich tapestry that is the companies history... I don't suppose the Isetta was a track monster either, but every once in a while a company needs to do something a little different in order to evolve.

Edit:

Also, can someone supply X6 and 5GT forecasted sales figures and actual sales figures please? I'm just wondering if we can quantify some statements?

[madman23]

[SlicktopTTZ]

The FWD fuel efficiency card is bullshit. What is the difference between front-engine FWD and rear-engine RWD drive-train loss?

Exactly.


They are trying to make extra cash on a bunch of high-volume, chronically understeering, bullshit-bubble cars.....

[MenTul]

Does anyone find having a butt in the front attractive?

[polaxgr]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

post of the month.

[marasani]

Originally Posted by Feli_330i

Thankfully the world is suppose to end in 2012, so we won't have to see this.

+1

[x5m power]

It's all about profit for BMW of america, if it keeps them in the black and not in the red why not???

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by thebmw

I agree that FWD do not and will not have the same dynamics of RWD. But no one seems to be getting all uptight about all the AWD cars that are already made by BMW (which, incidentally, do not drive the same as BMW RWD cars).

No they don't.
Even though it is a somewhat high tech AWD system, it just doesn't work as well as Audi's and Subaru's.
For AWD I'd go with Audi, and have.

FWD BMW?
It'll be interesting, but not for me, unless the models are designed to retain performance and not designed just for better mileage.

There's been talk from BMW that the 1 series will switch over to FWD.
If it does the BMW may lose me as a customer. I can easily go back to Audi.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by TsunamiFury

I know all you frothing-at-the mouth fanatics are worried about he brand but you have to realize, part of he reason BMW is doing this is to SAVE their high end sport models. By law in the US and eurozone BMW will have to comply with strict regulations that are averaged throughout their fleet.

You know how you average out all those m3s we love here: build a freakin fwd electric mini car.

JeeZe this is so obvious, you'd think all the 'fanatics' here could put 2 and 2 together.

Your tone is very disrespectful, so get over it.

Yes, many of us understand corporate fuel averages.
However, there is nothing out there that says that a car has to be FWD to meet EPA. To get EPA BMW, like other makers, have to bring to market alternative fuel vehicles, and smaller more efficient gasoline engines.
So, a smaller and lighter model with under 2.0 liters and turbo-charging where needed can meet those demands even with RWD.

A RWD layout actually has a bit less power train loss compared to FWD.
So, by it's nature it's more efficient.
FWD is a more compact design that's cheaper to build, but it's not the default method to achieve better EPA.

People are expressing their opinions as they have a right to, just as you are. Just because someone may not agree with your assessment doesn't mean they are "bitching", while you take the position of educating everyone. That's pretty arrogant.

I happen to like certain FWD cars, current and past. FWD can be a lot of fun to drive in cars like the; Mini, Civic Si, Acura RSX-S, TSX, VW GTI. A3, Mazdaspeed 3, etc...

I'm fine with BMW introducing FWD, if that's the only way they think they can compete. But, I just want them to keep the current RWD models as they are, namely the 1 series. I don't think the 3 series and above will be affected, but the 1 might and that would concern all of us.

Sure, we don't know that BMW will do that, but if we don't voice our concerns now, BMW will use data that leads them to think it would be ok of the 1 were FWD. Case in point, that quote about 80% of 1 series owners thinking their car is FWD. I don't buy it. I doubt that it's that high. I'm sure there are some 1 series owners who don't know their car is RWD. But, if it really is 80%, then a lot of that is BMW's fault for not educating their dealers on how to educate their customers, along with not properly advertising what this car is.

I still think he threw that number out in an attempt to validate why BMW would choose a FWD platform.
FWD does NOT need to happen to meet EPA. BMW could create a car in the size of a Mini with RWD and smaller NA and turbo engines.
That would actually be very cool, and bring new buyers to the brand, meet EPA, and even retain enthusiasts who would appreciate a low weight RWD moddable automobile, for lower cost than the current 1 and maybe even lower than the Mini.

[Bimmer Al]

Originally Posted by Leo_328i

Gay

Totally Mo.....I vomitted in my mouth

[Bimmer Al]

Originally Posted by Feli_330i

Thankfully the world is suppose to end in 2012, so we won't have to see this.

[GewoW]

I can just picture it now:

CA: So sir/ma'am, would you like the FWD or the RWD model?
Buyer: The whaaat?
CA: Would you like the front or rear wheel drive for your new BMW?
Buyer: What's the difference?


oh dear...

[PINeely]

Yet again BMW gives us a car that nobody is asking for.

[nosDREWdomus]

Originally Posted by jmsent

The article says that these will be smaller than the 1 Series. That being the case, I don't see any problem with what they're doing. Kind of like a BMW variant of the Mini.

Maybe they will feature a turbo-charged two-door hatchback that will have the speedometer in front of the driver.

It's clear that BMW is aiming right at VW with this concept and how could that be a bad thing? Imagine getting BMW reliability at VW prices. WIN-WIN!