[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by G99M5

no different from your local high school football tournament where your kid's team are strong but the rivals are doing everything to gain advantage - dad president of committee, referee's their friend, rig the schedule, overaged players dispensation.

it's called politics

Sure . That's why the FIA needs a clean house , Wollf used the FIA organisation to make his Mercedes car faster and to take the Red Bull team down concerning the budget cap .

IMHO . Just like Todt , is FIA president Mohammed Ahmed Bin Sulayem is just sleeping at the FIA !

This should never be allowed !

Politics ?
We are talking about the stealing from $Billions of car aerodynamic inventions and PU technologies ...

That's why the 2023 Mercedes will look like the 2022 RB18.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

It may be called politics, but the fact of the matter is that someone within the FIA wilfully broke their confidentiality rules. This is not something that happened by accident, where someone forgot a note in a board meeting room or something like that.
Confidential information was wilfully passed along. And that teams actively want to recieve information which was illegally obtained says something about those teams. It must have been too tempting in a year that they couldn't beat them on the track.

I think that the reaction of Ben Sulayem is not appropriate. When he claims that it's normal that things leak out, it means he doesn't have the FIA under control and that he has people working for him that don't take the set standards for confidentiality serious. Admitting that "it's normal" is another way of saying "I'm not doing my job" imho.

In other words : Mohammed Ahmed Bin Sulayem is saving his own A$$ .

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

It may be called politics, but the fact of the matter is that someone within the FIA wilfully broke their confidentiality rules. This is not something that happened by accident, where someone forgot a note in a board meeting room or something like that.
Confidential information was wilfully passed along. And that teams actively want to recieve information which was illegally obtained says something about those teams. It must have been too tempting in a year that they couldn't beat them on the track.

I think that the reaction of Ben Sulayem is not appropriate. When he claims that it's normal that things leak out, it means he doesn't have the FIA under control and that he has people working for him that don't take the set standards for confidentiality serious. Admitting that "it's normal" is another way of saying "I'm not doing my job" imho.

Let's not make the mistake to jump into conclusions too quickly, to take assumptions for granted as "true".

Could be that Rao was doing her job properly, so with integrity, and that all the "leak" stories are mere conjecture unrelated to her. She is not the only person who had access to all sorts of info at FIA. Nowhere I read that it is established that she leaked info.

Imagine for a moment that you were Rao and you hear/read all those bad rumors about you, while you know that these are without merit: must be horrible, no ?

None of us knows what has truly happened.

Also think about this.

What is a point of fact: from an objective point of view, prior to FIA she has worked for Mercedes-AMG. And regardless her integrity, some other teams may feel uncomfortable about this track record, preferring someone without a past at a team. But if someone is recruited who used to work at a team, that person brings valuable real-life experience to FIA. At FIA there has been Jean Todt (ex Ferrari) too and more recently there is Stefano Domenicali (ex Ferrari): uncomfortable for teams because of their past ?

Personally, in my book Ben Sulayem gets good points. Based on what he has said and done so far, looks like his integrity cannot be questioned, he wants the best for F1. With all those teams trying to impose their agendas, he has no easy job. Good man.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Let's not make the mistake to jump into conclusions too quickly, to take assumptions for granted as "true".

Could be that Rao was doing her job properly, so with integrity, and that all the "leak" stories are mere conjecture unrelated to her. She is not the only person who had access to all sorts of info at FIA. Nowhere I read that it is established that she leaked info.

Imagine for a moment that you were Rao and you hear/read all those bad rumors about you, while you know that these are without merit: must be horrible, no ?

None of us knows what has truly happened.

Also think about this.

What is a point of fact: from an objective point of view, prior to FIA she has worked for Mercedes-AMG. And regardless her integrity, some other teams may feel uncomfortable about this track record, preferring someone without a past at a team. But if someone is recruited who used to work at a team, that person brings valuable real-life experience to FIA. At FIA there has been Jean Todt (ex Ferrari) too and more recently there is Stefano Domenicali (ex Ferrari): uncomfortable for teams because of their past ?

Personally, in my book Ben Sulayem gets good points. Based on what he has said and done so far, looks like his integrity cannot be questioned, he wants the best for F1. With all those teams trying to impose their agendas, he has no easy job. Good man.

Translated :

Shaila-Ann Rao was also the person who called Horner, one hour after Max Verstappen had won his second Formula 1 title of his career in Japan, that Red Bull was in breach

Was this done by chance ? Coincidence ? I don't think so ..

Is such an important task not the FIA president Mohammed Ahmed Bin Sulayem's job to call the Red Bull team boss Horner and to proclaim a violation in the Red Bull budget cap ?
Or was this not important enough for the FIA president ? I don't think so ..

[///M Power-Belgium]

*****

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Translated :
Shaila-Ann Rao was also the person who called Horner, one hour after Max Verstappen had won his second Formula 1 title of his career in Japan, that Red Bull was in breach
Was this done by chance ? Coincidence ? I don't think so ..
Is such an important task not the FIA president Mohammed Ahmed Bin Sulayem's job to call the Red Bull team boss Horner and to proclaim a violation in the Red Bull budget cap ?
Or was this not important enough for the FIA president ? I don't think so ..

The article you quote says literally: "No proof has surfaced that Rao would have leaked regarding this [aspect]."



Timeline:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...qhU1wYuGY.html

We do not know what has been agreed internally at FIA about communication regarding the cost cap topic (who, to whom, when and what). IMHO it ain't illogical that a person in charge of an assignment is also appointed to communicate about findings to those concerned, rather than the FIA President himself. We al know that CEO's of companies delegate lots of tasks. And as a matter of fact, there is never a perfect moment for bringing bad news: no-one wants to get bad news. If it had been communicated prior to achieving the WDC title, some people will say that it was "deliberate" timing to destabilize the team. If done after the WDC title, some people will say that it was 'spoiling the fun of achieving the WDC title', etc.

The message I try to get across: beware of confirmation bias. Rao is presumed innocent until proven guilty. To my knowledge I have nowhere read that it is established that she has violated confidentiality rules. Also the mere fact that she leaves the interim position at FIA, is no proof. Numerous reasons could be a cause for departure, such as for example having completed a pre-defined assignment, or providing assistance during a transitional period, or teams expressing a preference for a person who was never part of an F1 team in the recent past, or the choice for a career change, or disliking the FIA job, or family reasons, or disliking all (social) media attention related to the job (folks gone rogue, troll armies attacks, privacy violations, etc.), etc.

[E86Z4MC]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The article you quote says literally: "No proof has surfaced that Rao would have leaked regarding this [aspect]."

Attachment 3042542

Timeline:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...qhU1wYuGY.html

We do not know what has been agreed internally at FIA about communication regarding the cost cap topic (who, to whom, when and what). IMHO it ain't illogical that a person in charge of an assignment is also appointed to communicate about findings to those concerned, rather than the FIA President himself. We al know that CEO's of companies delegate lots of tasks. And as a matter of fact, there is never a perfect moment for bringing bad news: no-one wants to get bad news. If it had been communicated prior to achieving the WDC title, some people will say that it was "deliberate" timing to destabilize the team. If done after the WDC title, some people will say that it was 'spoiling the fun of achieving the WDC title', etc.

The message I try to get across: beware of confirmation bias. Rao is presumed innocent until proven guilty. To my knowledge I have nowhere read that it is established that she has violated confidentiality rules. Also the mere fact that she leaves the interim position at FIA, is no proof. Numerous reasons could be a cause for departure, such as for example having completed a pre-defined assignment, or providing assistance during a transitional period, or teams expressing a preference for a person who was never part of an F1 team in the recent past, or the choice for a career change, or disliking the FIA job, or family reasons, or disliking all (social) media attention related to the job (folks gone rogue, troll armies attacks, privacy violations, etc.), etc.

Well said.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Let's not make the mistake to jump into conclusions too quickly, to take assumptions for granted as "true".

Could be that Rao was doing her job properly, so with integrity, and that all the "leak" stories are mere conjecture unrelated to her. She is not the only person who had access to all sorts of info at FIA. Nowhere I read that it is established that she leaked info.

In my particular post that you're quoting, I'm not saying it's Rao that leaked. I suspect it is her, but I think only Toto knows who it really is.
But one thing is sure: someone leaked. And that is my point.

Personally, in my book Ben Sulayem gets good points. Based on what he has said and done so far, looks like his integrity cannot be questioned, he wants the best for F1. With all those teams trying to impose their agendas, he has no easy job. Good man.

Ben Sulayem has done good things, but him saying it's normal that information gets leaked, and thus accepting it (I don't know how else to interpret his words) is not a statement that should be made by the head of a large organisation. The leaking of confidential information is a breach in trust and arguably a crime. And as long as the source isn't discovered, there's no guarantee that it won't happen again, and again, and again etc etc.

His reaction to me says that he's not going to do a whole lot about it to prevent it in future times, and that does eat away at his integrity imho. That reaction just doesn't say to me that it's on his priority list.
And because Ben Sulayem's reaction about leaking information is so blasé in my view, it automatically creates conformation bias. I mean if the autority about this subject isn't going to judge it, everyone else is free to imho. That is what happens if things don't get dealt with.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The article you quote says literally: "No proof has surfaced that Rao would have leaked regarding this [aspect]."

Attachment 3042542

Timeline:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...qhU1wYuGY.html

We do not know what has been agreed internally at FIA about communication regarding the cost cap topic (who, to whom, when and what). IMHO it ain't illogical that a person in charge of an assignment is also appointed to communicate about findings to those concerned, rather than the FIA President himself. We al know that CEO's of companies delegate lots of tasks. And as a matter of fact, there is never a perfect moment for bringing bad news: no-one wants to get bad news. If it had been communicated prior to achieving the WDC title, some people will say that it was "deliberate" timing to destabilize the team. If done after the WDC title, some people will say that it was 'spoiling the fun of achieving the WDC title', etc.

The message I try to get across: beware of confirmation bias. Rao is presumed innocent until proven guilty. To my knowledge I have nowhere read that it is established that she has violated confidentiality rules. Also the mere fact that she leaves the interim position at FIA, is no proof. Numerous reasons could be a cause for departure, such as for example having completed a pre-defined assignment, or providing assistance during a transitional period, or teams expressing a preference for a person who was never part of an F1 team in the recent past, or the choice for a career change, or disliking the FIA job, or family reasons, or disliking all (social) media attention related to the job (folks gone rogue, troll armies attacks, privacy violations, etc.), etc.

IMHO . The FIA just can't say that they had a 'big leak in the organisation.
That would mean that the whole FIA organisation completely failed ..
And the FIA failed big time .Because crucial protected information has been leaked .
OC .In the favor of the Mercedes team ! Who else ?

Considering the events , pretty much everything pointed in the ex-Mercedes Shaila-Ann Rao's direction .
Rao would never say : Hey guys ! I was the mole . I did it , please throw me in jail !

The Red Bull Team and Horner were not the only team who were worried about Rao taking on a role at the FIA, with Ferrari boss Mattia Binotto saying he would need to be reassured that there would be no conflict of interest !

The FIA knows it very well who the mole was into the organisation , but they can't make it public ..
This would take the whole Mercedes team down !

By the departure of Shaila-Ann Rao , the FIA just put the lid back on the kettle ..
Hopefully this won't happen again . Because the Red Bull team is fined $7Million !

The winner of this event was Toto Wolff and his Mercedes team, but they are the biggest losers of the 2022 season .
What really matters is the fact that whole situation won't hurt the Red Bull team .
That's not bad for just a energy drink maker , with the latest 2 World Titles in their pockets ..

#UnLeashTheLion

Wait a min. Toto Wolff's 'mole ?!?!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

It may be called politics, but the fact of the matter is that someone within the FIA wilfully broke their confidentiality rules. This is not something that happened by accident, where someone forgot a note in a board meeting room or something like that.
Confidential information was wilfully passed along. And that teams actively want to recieve information which was illegally obtained says something about those teams. It must have been too tempting in a year that they couldn't beat them on the track.

I think that the reaction of Ben Sulayem is not appropriate. When he claims that it's normal that things leak out, it means he doesn't have the FIA under control and that he has people working for him that don't take the set standards for confidentiality serious. Admitting that "it's normal" is another way of saying "I'm not doing my job" imho.

MAX today ,

Ohhh...No ! Please don't !

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

In my particular post that you're quoting, I'm not saying it's Rao that leaked. I suspect it is her, but I think only Toto knows who it really is.
But one thing is sure: someone leaked. And that is my point.
Ben Sulayem has done good things, but him saying it's normal that information gets leaked, and thus accepting it (I don't know how else to interpret his words) is not a statement that should be made by the head of a large organisation. The leaking of confidential information is a breach in trust and arguably a crime. And as long as the source isn't discovered, there's no guarantee that it won't happen again, and again, and again etc etc.
His reaction to me says that he's not going to do a whole lot about it to prevent it in future times, and that does eat away at his integrity imho. That reaction just doesn't say to me that it's on his priority list.
And because Ben Sulayem's reaction about leaking information is so blasé in my view, it automatically creates conformation bias. I mean if the autority about this subject isn't going to judge it, everyone else is free to imho. That is what happens if things don't get dealt with.

You assume that no investigation has taken place. But that may be inaccurate. None of us knows what actions Ben Sulayem has ordered internally. IMHO it is very likely that he ordered to track down the leak and that subsequently measures were taken against the person (either part of FIA or part of a service provider of FIA). We do not know the identity. And it's speculation or innuendo to claim that it's Rao: no proof.

Very likely, more people than we may think have access to internal info. Let's not forget that, due to the intricate complexity of the cost cap analysis, FIA also relied on external advisors. Ben Sulayem is not supposed to tell the press: "OK, we found the leak: it was Johnny/Jenny working at [organization name]. The situation has been taken care of internally regarding that person".

Compare with pictures of a new BMW model leaked on social media (a new car sitting on a cargo at an airfield, a new car inside an elevator, a new car in a studio, etc.). And I mean 'genuine' leaks, not those so-called leaks. You can bet that BMW usually tries to identify where pictures of genuine leaks were taken and that it tries to track down who was involved. If you notice leak pictures getting deleted from a thread after going viral: yup, that was very likely a genuine leak and the photographer or his employer got into hot water. But don't expect BMW to make statements about it.

Already a couple of incidents have been reported over here:

• pre-production G11 730d pictures leaked in December 2014; the car was in transit and an employee of the cargo company shot some rather unflattering pictures, which ended up on the interwebs. Scott26 commented: "So we had a brief meeting this morning which include said representatives from the cargo company involved. Let's just say that the ones that took the pictures, their reflections are visible on the car itself." (see here);
• E63/E64 6er pictures: Scott26 commented: "Cameras are not allowed and that also goes for phones. The last high profile leak was at an early presentation for the E63 and E64 6er. A US dealer photographed the two and put them on line or sent them to a magazine. Management at that time went ballistic. Completely Bat-shit crazy and they lost their franchise. I think they now sell Korean. Hyundai or Kia." (see here);
• removed M2 shipping pictures (weight figures discussion) (see here);
• removed M2 dealership pictures (on display before launch date) (see here);
• someone shot a picture inside a 'discovery room' in Belgium of a pre-production F90 and posted it on Instagram (phones and cameras had to be handed over to security staff before entering the 'discovery room'); it wasn't me (I would never do that); the next day I was asked if I knew who that person was, because BMW was trying to track down the photographer (see here);
• removed G87 M2 pictures (see here);
• etc.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

IMHO . The FIA just can't say that they had a 'big leak in the organisation.
That would mean that the whole FIA organisation completely failed ..
And the FIA failed big time .Because crucial protected information has been leaked .

Where is the conclusive evidence that it was leaked by someone working at FIA ?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Where is the conclusive evidence that it was leaked by someone working at FIA ?

Actually ,I hate to go in a tough discussion with a moderator like you . Because I have respect for your outstanding work at BP

Alright ..
I'm pretty sure , the Red Bull data wasn't stolen by the pizza delivery boy
And that's why 'she's gone now ...

Let's hope ,more conclusive evidence will see the daylight ASAP ..

Meanwhile I would bet a lot of money , that Rao the Mercedes 'mole was at the FIA organisation .
Given the course of events , I'll have a 90% + chance of winning this bet

[Artemis]

"Max by numbers: The amazing stats behind Verstappen's 2022 title winning campaign":
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...fTv0Zs63q.html

[///M Power-Belgium]

November 24/2022

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Where is the conclusive evidence that it was leaked by someone working at FIA ?

I think that deep down we all know it was leaked one way or another with a quick side glance from Sulayem in the next open plan office. As was mentioned the mole would never be officially revealed and so easy to make up any story within the confines the building ,if it was and everything came out then it would be the end of Merc F1 team.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

MAX today ,

Ohhh...No ! Please don't !

Great colours on the Honda race bike!

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Actually ,I hate to go in a tough discussion with a moderator like you . Because I have respect for your outstanding work at BP

Alright ..
I'm pretty sure , the Red Bull data wasn't stolen by the pizza delivery boy
And that's why 'she's gone now ...

Let's hope ,more conclusive evidence will see the daylight ASAP ..

Meanwhile I would bet a lot of money , that Rao the Mercedes 'mole was at the FIA organisation .
Given the course of events , I'll have a 90% + chance of winning this bet

A dead cert, I'll put an easy hundred on that with you my friend

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I think that deep down we all know it was leaked one way or another with a quick side glance from Sulayem in the next open plan office. As was mentioned the mole would never be officially revealed and so easy to make up any story within the confines the building ,if it was and everything came out then it would be the end of Merc F1 team.

I'll go in Ferrari onboard radio mode now with Xavier Marcos Padros voice:

"Question: did the press ask Toto Wolff how he got the info or whether it was just hearsay or bluff."

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

I'll go in Ferrari onboard radio mode now with Xavier Marcos Padros voice:

"Question: did the press ask Toto Wolff how he got the info or whether it was just hearsay or bluff."

What we can see is that Merc took a nosedive in performance from the Brazil 1-2 they got with Russel holding a tired looking Hamilton, another coincidence with Rao 's departure...

[minn19]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

What we can see is that Merc took a nosedive in performance from the Brazil 1-2 they got with Russel holding a tired looking Hamilton, another coincidence with Rao 's departure...

What? MB supposedly stole technology secrets from RB via Rao (how would she have access to their secrets/tech documents) and then used this knowledge for 1-2 in Brazil. But then on the cusp of overtaking Ferrari for number 2 in the constructors title they decide not to use these secrets in Abu Dhabi?

Quite the story………….

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by minn19

What? MB supposedly stole technology secrets from RB via Rao (how would she have access to their secrets/tech documents) and then used this knowledge for 1-2 in Brazil. But then on the cusp of overtaking Ferrari for number 2 in the constructors title they decide not to use these secrets in Abu Dhabi?

Quite the story………….

Make fun of it if you want but that's what happened on the track in the last two