[Gonven]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Please fix your video otherwise your thread is dead /

Link is working now, enjoy

[Hobbe74]

Originally Posted by ND40oz

Starting with gen 3 Haldex, it is now proactive and is no longer just FWD waiting for slippage to send power to the rear axle. It's all electronically controlled, just like xDrive and will send power to the rear axle depending on things like throttle position, incline, speed, etc. The TTRS, RS3 and RSQ3 don't seem to be too hampered using it.

From what production date?
We have a VW CC 4Motion in the family built Sept. 2013 and it sure feels FWD in slippery conditions.
The time from when the front axle looses traction until the rear axle kicks in...well its quite a time gap.

[parabola]

I have Subaru Legacy and 328 xDrive in my garage. Both cars have the same set of Continental DWS tires, and I must say Subaru system does better in snow than xDrive. My house is located in a really hilly neighborhood and when it snows I drive both cars. I've experienced less tire slip and better stability with Subaru system than xDrive...doesn't mean that xDrive is bad, no.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Gonven

Link is working now, enjoy

Okay thanks for the heads up.

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, I don't know where that statistic originates, but it's well known that BMW comfortably outsells Audi in total sales both here in the US and worldwide. I believe they beat Audi in the US in every single segment in which the two compete, including by huge margin in the entry level luxury sedan segment (3 Series and A4/S4).

Keep in mind, while in the US there are only a couple models where Quattro isn't standard (one of which is the A4, by the way), worldwide, all of their passenger cars and, I believe, some of their SUVs are available without Quattro (in which case they are FWD).

So, when you take the two above together, it is not hard to see how BMW could theoretically be selling more AWD vehicles than Audi. It certainly doesn't confirm it, but I have no trouble at all believing it could be the case.

I never said total volume. I said Xdrive vs Quattro sales. I seriously doubt Xdrive outsells all quattro models.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by The long haul

I never said total volume. I said Xdrive vs Quattro sales. I seriously doubt Xdrive outsells all quattro models.

I believe in Europe it does.

David [Dackelone] lives in Germany.

[DJKhan85]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

It's not a permanent torque split anymore. I believe its a wet clutch variable system so you can literally get 100% to either axle.

Performance wise, it all relies on how they tune the system and its sensors.

Interesting. Is this clutch pack located within the transmission or external? Basically is there a transfer case in the system somewhere.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by The long haul

I never said total volume. I said Xdrive vs Quattro sales.

Right, I understood exactly what you said. Did you read and comprehend my post? My point is that if BMW eclipses Audi total sales by a wide enough margin, then even if they sell fewer AWD models as a percentage of overall sales than Audi does (which is further speculation, but let's assume it's true), they could still outsell them in absolute terms.

I seriously doubt Xdrive outsells all quattro models.

Yes, well you may indeed be right. However, AWD luxury car sales have increased steadily from the old days when Audi was the only real player. Tell me, do you think BMW and Mercedes are still selling vastly more RWD vehicles than AWD vehicles? Maybe true in SoCal, but doubtful on a national and worldwide scale.

[Mike_L]

Over 70% of BMWs sold worldwide are xDrive. It wouldn't surprise me if they outsold all the Quattros.

[ND40oz]

Originally Posted by Hobbe74

From what production date?
We have a VW CC 4Motion in the family built Sept. 2013 and it sure feels FWD in slippery conditions.
The time from when the front axle looses traction until the rear axle kicks in...well its quite a time gap.

For the CC pretty sure it was the 2008.5 model year with the Gen 4. When you first apply gas from a dead stop, torque should be split front to rear. If it's not and you're spinning your front wheels, take your car in and get it looked at.

Once it's fixed, you can get a controller if you want a more neutral bias all the time: http://www.hpamotorsports.com/product_haldex.html

[Blksnowflake]

I had an Evo X and have driven awd drive vehicles of all types in some harsh environments. If my nemesis is snow and want performance it's very hard to top what Mitsubishi did to that one specific car. It is standard 50/50 split and can send torque where ever there's slip on top of having torque vectoring on the outside rear wheel on a turn, and not that crappy brake induced malarkey, it over drives the outside wheel to make turn in faster.

The Subaru STI is a close second, but they need to fix that brake induced(brake the inner wheel using ABS while the outside remains the same speed) torque vectoring.

The Nissan GTR ATTESA ET-S as well as Hondas SH-AWD is pretty amazing and likely the one with the best ability to lead the pack, yet Honda neuters it with a billion nannies and makes it fwd biased almost al the time.
When it comes to a performance based awd system nothing beats the GTR. The Japanese have mastered awd systems, but make them available at their highest potential on the very elite of cars(in that segment) like the Evo X, STI or GTR.

The germans are catching up and 4matic has made leaps to become a player and performance oriented, BMW has also. Until the last couple of years these two just had awd systems that were specifically geared toward traction and not performance, i.e. electronic, no individual locking differentials controlling torque to a specific set of tires, and worked in harmony with ABS systems which equals fail.
Audi is close in performance to the Evo with the added expense of checking the sport differential option during your build but it isn't as aggressive and robust.

There's a difference in AWD for performance, for traction, or for what you'd want in a Range Rover in the middle eastern desert. At this point I wouldn't buy an M3 for example with the current Xdrive....just like I wouldn't and didn't buy the CLA AMG with it's craptacular poor excuse for a twin clutch transmission, they need more development......... which is why they better be testing the crap out of that M5 and take an Evo X or STI and see how it's done. If BMW lets the M division tinker with XDrive and make all four wheels behave something like the M-Rear Differential, I think we may have something wonderful.

That second video where they test the different cars is crap, pure garbage....it is put on by one manufacturer "A"........and "B" we have no clue how they set up the systems in the other vehicles. I can get a Hummer to fail one of those tests if I set it up wrong....
Psychology 101 right, double blind study......you need an independent tester following the manufacturers guidelines for supposedly making the awd system function properly. There are lots of these tests on youtube, just search Subaru vs competitors for example.

Here's one of my favourite videos of the Evos awd system in action:

[MaximumG]

Before people get more confused when comparing xdrive with quattro, I want to point out that:

Audi has 4 types of "quattro" systems, with a possible 5th type coming.

1. Haldex - A3, A1, TT, etc.
2. Torsen - Q7, A4, A6, etc.
3. "Crown Gear" - S4, RS5
4. Viscous coupling - R8

And then there's 5. "e-quattro" - is possibly a combination of different configuration too complicated to list here. There's that 1 motor per wheel AWD configuration like in e-tron concept. And then there's some kinda of petrol/motor hybrid iteration in the upcoming A4, TTQ quattro system, which is probably some kind of Haldex/Crown Gear/electric motor combination.

Also, even within Torsen quattro applications, some Audi cars are equipped with a manually locking differential, and others are equipped with torque-vectoring. All very confusing stuff to me. I can't even begin to compare what to what, with what.

By the way, my understanding of how these systems work is rudimentary at best. Although, I do find Youtube videos of people building working models of the Torsen diff using only Legos parts extremely fascinating.

[LaserPower]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

I had an Evo X and have driven awd drive vehicles of all types in some harsh environments. If my nemesis is snow and want performance it's very hard to top what Mitsubishi did to that one specific car. It is standard 50/50 split and can send torque where ever there's slip on top of having torque vectoring on the outside rear wheel on a turn, and not that crappy brake induced malarkey, it over drives the outside wheel to make turn in faster.

The Subaru STI is a close second, but they need to fix that brake induced(brake the inner wheel using ABS while the outside remains the same speed) torque vectoring.

The Nissan GTR ATTESA ET-S as well as Hondas SH-AWD is pretty amazing and likely the one with the best ability to lead the pack, yet Honda neuters it with a billion nannies and makes it fwd biased almost al the time.
When it comes to a performance based awd system nothing beats the GTR. The Japanese have mastered awd systems, but make them available at their highest potential on the very elite of cars(in that segment) like the Evo X, STI or GTR.

The germans are catching up and 4matic has made leaps to become a player and performance oriented, BMW has also. Until the last couple of years these two just had awd systems that were specifically geared toward traction and not performance, i.e. electronic, no individual locking differentials controlling torque to a specific set of tires, and worked in harmony with ABS systems which equals fail.
Audi is close in performance to the Evo with the added expense of checking the sport differential option during your build but it isn't as aggressive and robust.

There's a difference in AWD for performance, for traction, or for what you'd want in a Range Rover in the middle eastern desert. At this point I wouldn't buy an M3 for example with the current Xdrive....just like I wouldn't and didn't buy the CLA AMG with it's craptacular poor excuse for a twin clutch transmission, they need more development......... which is why they better be testing the crap out of that M5 and take an Evo X or STI and see how it's done. If BMW lets the M division tinker with XDrive and make all four wheels behave something like the M-Rear Differential, I think we may have something wonderful.

That second video where they test the different cars is crap, pure garbage....it is put on by one manufacturer "A"........and "B" we have no clue how they set up the systems in the other vehicles. I can get a Hummer to fail one of those tests if I set it up wrong....
Psychology 101 right, double blind study......you need an independent tester following the manufacturers guidelines for supposedly making the awd system function properly. There are lots of these tests on youtube, just search Subaru vs competitors for example.

Here's one of my favourite videos of the Evos awd system in action:

xdrive mechanically is somewhat similar to the Nissan GT-R's ATTESA E-TS. Both have 2 drive shafts, one primary to the rear and one secondary to the front. Both utilize a multi plate clutch as center diff. The GT-R has limited slip diff at rear while the xdrive does not. Both has open diff at front. It all comes down to programming. An excellently programmed electronic system will be better than an pure mechanical setup.

[DCG]

It was stellar in the Juno Blizzard we just had here on the East End of Long Island, NY. 2013 BMW 328xi M Sport with cold Bridgestone Sport Tires got us where we needed to go safely inclines and descents and all. The only downside with the xi with M Sport is their is no sport suspension which we are accustom to and prefer, but it is worth it to get to work, home and grocery store safely in inclement crappy weather.

Highly anticipating an M4 with rear-biased AWD xDrive!

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by DCG

It was stellar in the Juno Blizzard we just had here on the East End of Long Island, NY. 2013 BMW 328xi M Sport with cold Bridgestone Sport Tires got us where we needed to go safely inclines and descents and all. The only downside with the xi with M Sport is their is no sport suspension we are accustom to.

You didn't get the Dynamic Handling Package with the Adaptive M Suspension?

[DCG]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

You didn't get the Dynamic Handling Package with the Adaptive M Suspension?

The M Sport with xDrive is not offered with any Sport Suspension setup, but it still kicks ass. We do miss the Sport Suspension but for now and with the Misses driving it as well it is a very small compromise we made and well worth it. It even has better fuel economy then the two previous 3 Series with Sport Package we had.

I am highly anticipating an M4 with "rear-biased" AWD xDrive!

[963mw]

I have both the X-Drive and quattro cars (multiple of them), and I must say that the X Drive is way way better than the quattro.

[Sedoy]

Actually many new audi's have 6th generation of Quattro which debuted in the 2010 RS5 like you mentioned. The key change was the replacement of the Torsen Type "C" centre differential with a "Crown Gear" differential. So all current quattro A6, A7, A8 etc. got crown diff.

Originally Posted by MaximumG

Before people get more confused when comparing xdrive with quattro, I want to point out that:

Audi has 4 types of "quattro" systems, with a possible 5th type coming.

1. Haldex - A3, A1, TT, etc.
2. Torsen - Q7, A4, A6, etc.
3. "Crown Gear" - S4, RS5
4. Viscous coupling - R8

And then there's 5. "e-quattro" - is possibly a combination of different configuration too complicated to list here. There's that 1 motor per wheel AWD configuration like in e-tron concept. And then there's some kinda of petrol/motor hybrid iteration in the upcoming A4, TTQ quattro system, which is probably some kind of Haldex/Crown Gear/electric motor combination.

Also, even within Torsen quattro applications, some Audi cars are equipped with a manually locking differential, and others are equipped with torque-vectoring. All very confusing stuff to me. I can't even begin to compare what to what, with what.

By the way, my understanding of how these systems work is rudimentary at best. Although, I do find Youtube videos of people building working models of the Torsen diff using only Legos parts extremely fascinating.

[Jessen]

Just had to post this again :-)

[jimx]

here is another quattro fail - Q5 vs X3

[pokerface]

I have the privilege of having an F25 X3 and a B8 A4 in my stable. Both are awd (xdrive and Torsen quattro), and my father in law has a Q5 which is a Torsen quattro. All three are using similar style winter tires. I find the quattros a lot more planted when romping through snow. My X3 is a little less sure, but it also ultimately pulls through. The quattro is a bit easier to hold a controlled drift, probably because the power doesn't really shuttle back-front as much, while I've noticed the xdrive get out of shape (pardon the pun) and the electronic nannies clamp down which is fairly abrupt.

Take that as you will but I do enjoy driving the BMW day to day more.

[The long haul]

I have to say IMHO having driven a F10 Xdrive and multiple quattro models, Quattro is superior. Again your mileage may vary but Quattro feels much more composed, allows more slip under throttle for controlled slides and is just overall much more of a hoot to drive.