[Mingwan]

^ I fapped to this thread. Does that make both of you guys happy now?

[TXSTYLE]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Think due to the vestiges of snobbery against American brands that is common on these boards...while that was the case in the past, things have clearly changed. Of course the performance gap is completely closed (and in many ways surpassed by American cars) and next gen the "quality gap" will likely be closed as well.

Companies are dynamic entities, and its obvious that GM and Ford are taking advantage of the Euro car companies' focus on things like diesels and fuel efficient vehicles with turbos. The sad thing is Tesla is eating their lunch in the most innovative electric front, and American car companies are not subject to as stringent displacement, pollution, noise, efficiency regulations and thus can pump out a small number enthusiast halo cars. When you think about it, due to relatively short travel distances in Europe, small, all electric models would have been perfect for that market, and the EU governments would be able to invest in the huge infrastructure required for charging stations (not to mention much of Euro electricity comes from nuclear/renewables). It's shocking that the European car companies, on their very own home turf, completely missed this opportunity. Making it even worse, Tesla doesn't own much intellectual property..their batteries/tech are primarily sourced from Asia, thus its vendors do all the R&D spending while the Euro manufacturers spent all this money on what they thought was the future, only to find themselves 5+ years behind Tesla.

By moving away from its performance roots BMW got caught in the middle, where it is unable to effectively harness electric tech and bring Tesla competitors to market in scale and due to the billions poured into a mis-guided i-strategy (which is STILL not formulated), left very little on the table for innovation on the performance front.

Ironically, Tesla build quality is similar to the current gen of American cars, but people overlook this as the benefits far outweigh the weaknesses in many consumers' minds.

I think a rear-engined 'vette is super cool, I would totally consider it, and it isn't surprising to see GM continue to pounce on the performance and market advantages currently in its favor, at BMW's and many other brands' expense.

Well said.

[TXSTYLE]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

^ I fapped to this thread. Does that make both of you guys happy now?

[Mingwan]

Originally Posted by Railgun

I've driven a Stingray for a bit, and I can say without a doubt it's a fun car, but on a day to day basis, I'll take the M4 over it all day. There's a reason the "snobbery" against American brands exists. While on paper (and in pictures) the quality gap looked better, in practice, not a hope. But I'm always more picky when it comes to that anyway.

This is fanboying and snobbery at its finest here. CLEARLY, the Stingray is the better car because it's the faster car compared to the M4. I can't comprehend why you'd pick the more expensive M4, and I'm very offended that you would take the M4 not just on some days, but EVERYDAY.

You also didn't talk about the uber cool mid engined corvette. You can add more snob points to your collection, sir.

[NickyC]

Excuse me, what quality gap are we talking about here? BMW quality? They can't even make rod bearings for their ///M engines that are reliable. Their supposed top of the line engines, plagued by years and years and model after model with the same issue. Let's not even talk about VANOS, oil pumps/water pumps not working after 50k miles, turbochargers leaking oil all over the place by 30k miles, wastegates stuck open, rear subframes destroying themselves on Z3s and E46s, the list goes on and on and on. No doubt the current overpriced ///M line will start experiencing some of these issues as well shortly.

Sorry snobs, German engineering is a myth. My Z4M will be the last BMW I ever buy, and I've already put so much preventive maintenance into this car I should have picked up a 2008 Dodge Viper or something with the money spent hah.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Excuse me, what quality gap are we talking about here? BMW quality? They can't even make rod bearings for their ///M engines that are reliable. Their supposed top of the line engines, plagued by years and years and model after model with the same issue. Let's not even talk about VANOS, oil pumps/water pumps not working after 50k miles, turbochargers leaking oil all over the place by 30k miles, wastegates stuck open, rear subframes destroying themselves on Z3s and E46s, the list goes on and on and on. No doubt the current overpriced ///M line will start experiencing some of these issues as well shortly.

Sorry snobs, German engineering is a myth. My Z4M will be the last BMW I ever buy, and I've already put so much preventive maintenance into this car I should have picked up a 2008 Dodge Viper or something with the money spent hah.

The perceived quality gap from 20 years ago when there wasn't much internet and one company didn't really know all that much about what another company was doing, and people were no wider for it. Although quality gaps exist much closer to the current cars, most have figured out how to address any and all issues due to the availability of information and resources. There are people that swear up and down their 3 series is "so much better", yet if you go look at it, it's not some diamond-inlaid goat-leather, there's a hell of a lot of plastic in there, no matter what they think, and while obviously 20K hyundai will be outfitted with the most basic interior, most cars in the 30-40 range are just as good, if not better, than BMWs in the 40-50K range. Of course, there was a time when features like radar-cruise control, heated/cooled seats and other features were exclusive to BMW, Mercedes and Audi, but all of the manufacturers are in heated technology competitions and in many cases, they have more $ to throw at R&D, so this is not the exclusive club it used to be. Finally, companies like Chevy and Ford are not just figuring out how to build fast cars, they are building cars that OUTHANDLE their Yurp competition. I'm not sure how many people here were around 20-30 years ago, but back then it would be so unheard of as to be totally and utterly unbelievable. They were so far from that end of the spectrum it wasn't even funny. Of course, many people still have these attitudes because they were constantly reinforced, by magazines, commercials, word of mouth, etc.

[mkoesel]

No doubt the C8 is going to be a terrific and thrilling car just as the existing model is as well past generation models, especially the Z06s, have been.

But I drive a BMW because of the practical aspect combined with the high performance pedigree. The only American luxury car company to offer super sedans is Cadillac, and the current models took their sweet time before finally coming to market.

Indeed, BMW doesn't even have a high performance sports car in their portfolio today. There's no M version of the i8 or Z4, and, in fact, no Z4 at all right now. This is likely why you don't see many modern day BMW enthusiasts cross shopping a Corvette. Anyone who can swing a two-seater has already left the building and gotten one.

If I could work a two-seater into my life, the C7 Z06 would be near the top of the list. I admit that I have a huge soft spot for the F-Type R too, however. Even though the Vette would spank it hands down in performance, it's just so damn lust-worthy in the aesthetics department.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

No doubt the C8 is going to be a terrific and thrilling car just as the existing model is as well past generation models, especially the Z06s, have been.

But I drive a BMW because of the practical aspect combined with the high performance pedigree. The only American luxury car company to offer super sedans is Cadillac, and the current models took their sweet time before finally coming to market.

Indeed, BMW doesn't even have a high performance sports car in their portfolio today. There's no M version of the i8 or Z4, and, in fact, no Z4 at all right now. This is likely why you don't see many modern day BMW enthusiasts cross shopping a Corvette. Anyone who can swing a two-seater has already left the building and gotten one.

If I could work a two-seater into my life, the C7 Z06 would be near the top of the list. I admit that I have a huge soft spot for the F-Type R too, however. Even though the Vette would spank it hands down in performance, it's just so damn lust-worthy in the aesthetics department.

Well said